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The problems with Ogryns seems to be they die too easily to powerfists and other S8 attacks. And each time one dies you end up down by 3 wounds for combat resolution.

Most people say they need eternal warrior which makes no sense to me. They're just big fat guys, not demons from hell. An anti tank missile SHOULD kill them.

So I say the problem is they have too many wounds when there are other ways to make them resillient.



Ogryn
WS4 BS3 S5 T5 W1 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv5+

Feel no pain
Ripper Gun S4, Assault 2, 12"
Frag grenades
Swap ripper guns for 2 CC weapons OR 1 large CC weapon (+1 strength)

5-10 per unit at 20 points each



With T5 and feel no pain they'll resist a good number of S4 attacks before going down but still die to las cannons, krak missiles and the like.

Thoughts?

20 points each?

No thanks, still wouldnt buy or use them.

Price or rules?

Well, firstly, you've hacked down their wounds to only 1, which is rather crappy for a 20pt model without a 3+ armor save and Ld8, I wouldn't take that even if I had an extra 200pts and no other models, they're just not useful. Maybe at 10pts they might be useful with only one wound or knock down to T4 too, but then they're not really Ogryns, but Orks.

Also, there was a rather long living thread about Ogryns if you'd like to see what others have already discussed;
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219918.page

I don't think one wound is really the way to do, that's not the schtick of the Ogryn. It's like turning the Shokk Attack Gun into a S10 AP3 Ordnance weapon. Sure, it's an effective and potentially useful way to rule it, but that's ignoring all the precedents set by the game's prior edition.

The SAG is about being unpredictable and only potentially lethal. The Ogryn is about having multiple wounds and resilience against small arms fire.

I am going to add Ogryns into my IG force, but I am slightly disappointed with their statline.

Admittedly, I think IG are for dakka and suck at everything else, but I thought Ogryns would add wild-card to my force.

I like the statline, KK. FNP is a rule that totally suits Ogryns, if not that then I'd want to see a better Sv number.

One thing I need to know; is the Ripper gun (in the current 'dex) a two-handed weapon?
I can't find the entry anywhere. The old models (see above) seemed to have Ripper Guns and CCWs.
I want to know if my Bone 'Ead can have a Ripper and a PW basically...

Plus I want to get the +1A in CC

Tek wrote:One thing I need to know; is the Ripper gun (in the current 'dex) a two-handed weapon?
I can't find the entry anywhere. The old models (see above) seemed to have Ripper Guns and CCWs.
I want to know if my Bone 'Ead can have a Ripper and a PW basically...

There's an easy answer to that. Ogryns aren't allowed power weapons.

I like it, but I think that their wounds should be bumped up to 2.

I say keep them at W3, there really isn't a reason they can't have that, other than people like to say they should have W2 for some reason (Ogryns have always had W3, there is not a reason to get rid of that). I also back the "Feel No Pain" special rule for them, and something to fix their T4 Instant Death slaughter. Too many times in the past has my Ogryn squad been wiped out by a few SM Sergeants wielding powerfists before the Ogryns even get a chance to swipe one attack.

Nid warriors cant be instant killed either. Yes ogyrns arent demons but neither are nid warriors.....they're just really angry bugs that draw alot of fire to themselves, just like ogyrns. Id like to run em in my IG but they die way to easy. hopefully they'll fix the problem and 1 wound is just not enough and a complete waste of points for what ogyrns are suppose to do but they fail epicly

I think they should be superior to an Orc Nob (wo a Power Claw). They make a wonderful HTH option for IG that just sucks too much right now.

Give them S5 (certainly bigger than an Orc nob)
Give them T5 (again bigger so why not)
Lower Ld to 7 (They are dumb and probably don't handle getting beat in combat ... unless a commissar is leading them.)

Change the statline on a ripper gun to a blast template at same Str and AP. A 3" barrelled shotgun should have a serious blast pattern. Increase bonus to +2 Str. (It is two handed.)

I am not saying they should be awesome, but give them something to standup to big nasties as a resilient unit. No they should not survive ork nobz with PKs but with T5 they don't instant kill to very many weapons and they can survive a lot of orks wailing away at them at S3.

previously, I suggested 20 pts for:

IG Ogryn
WS4 BS2 S4(5) T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
Rippergun (S4 AP- A3 Rending)
Furious, Rending, Stubborn

This was the "killy" version, conceptually similar to Rough Riders in overall utility.

However, more recently, I've decided that 2E-like S5+ T5 is a better fit:

Ogryns (3..10)
- WS4 BS2 S6 T5 W2 I3 A4 Ld8 Sv5+ FNP; Ripper Gun
- may swap Ripper Guns for Rending Blades
- PF / PW sergeant
- Transport: Chimera

This would still be 20+ pts.

The second suggestion isn't bad, DD, however I would still say that wounds needs to be W3 and their point value 20pts or less.

Agreed.
Were still talking about something that has 5+ save. That means that a bolt pistol will negate it...

A PISTOL!!

Skinnattittar wrote:I say keep them at W3, there really isn't a reason they can't have that, other than people like to say they should have W2 for some reason (Ogryns have always had W3, there is not a reason to get rid of that). I also back the "Feel No Pain" special rule for them, and something to fix their T4 Instant Death slaughter. Too many times in the past has my Ogryn squad been wiped out by a few SM Sergeants wielding powerfists before the Ogryns even get a chance to swipe one attack.

Shouldn't that not happen, with power fists always going at initiative 1? At least in 5th ed?

I was exagerating.

jp400 wrote:Agreed.
Were still talking about something that has 5+ save. That means that a bolt pistol will negate it...

A PISTOL!!

Not a pistol, a Bolt Pistol. Bolt Pistols fire armour-piercing, explosive rounds.

I like the Warboss/ Nob comparisions. S4/5 T5 I3 W2 A3 4+. Warbosses and Demon Princes can suck up Krak missiles while still going down to S10. No furious charge give them decent gear. Like Flash Gitz. Good gun/ armour on a Chasis. Cybernetic Implants give FNP, Chem Inhalers give a leadership bonus. etc.

As far as points are concerned, if they are not used much ... drop the points. duh.

I have always felt that the wargear section was over rated, good for an occasional Plasma Pistol for a Command Squad, but otherwise not that useful, everything is always over priced.

Ogryns should just have Feel No Pain and be able to stand up to S8 weapons. I'm not a big fan of T5, myself, because then S9 weapons don't Instant Death, but T5 is just a lot simpler and really isn't a big deal. Plus, they're freaking monster humans! Bigger and nastier (both by physical and odor) than Space Marines!

Keep their stats the same, give them Stubborn and access to a Powerfist, make the Ripper gun S5, and drop their points.

Drop them to what? 15ppm? 10ppm? That wasn't a very good suggestion, Boxant, we have already identified that Ogryns are too expensive, many, many time, oh so many, many times. So many times in fact, that people who don't even know what WH40k IS know that Ogryns are woefully over priced.

can you say broken in a bad way

Skinnattittar wrote:Drop them to what? 15ppm? 10ppm? That wasn't a very good suggestion, Boxant, we have already identified that Ogryns are too expensive, many, many time, oh so many, many times. So many times in fact, that people who don't even know what WH40k IS know that Ogryns are woefully over priced.

Yes they are too expensive.

However, if you gave them Stubborn than you would eliminate the problem of having their 3 wounds count against them for combat resolution. If you gave them access to Bone Head Powerfist you would give them a S10 hidden powerfist with 3 attacks (4 on the charge). These two changes would help Ogryns do better filling their role in IG. I do not see a need for T5 as I think a Powerfist or Krak missile should insta kill a Ogryn. Feel No Pain would be nice, but depends on price. Str5 Ripper gun would be nice.

If they didn't have FnP, their price should be ~13-15 ppm. If they had FnP I would think 15-18 ppm would be fair.

Much more constructive. However, at T4 and the shear number of S8 weapons out there, I still whole-heartedly agree that they will be mostly wasted points, especially considering that all other targets in IG are going to be T3 with W1, there will be litterally nothing else to use those S8 weapons against (Leman Russ is AV14, so popping at that instead of at Ogryns would be an obvious folly for S8 weapons which will only Glance on 6's), and Ogryns will still do most of their falling before reaching the enemy. But at 15pts with FNP, they wouldn't be completely nudered, especially if you are allowed more then one squad and a cheap Chimera for them. Powerfists are less important, in my opinion, but would be nice, and would make much more sense from a fluff and tactics PoV, at least if they were only limited to the BONE 'EADs.

BoxANT wrote:If they didn't have FnP, their price should be ~13-15 ppm. If they had FnP I would think 15-18 ppm would be fair.

IMO, those prices are a bit low. I see Ogryns as models that should be worth 18-20 pts, with rules and stats to match.

Then we won't see anyone using them still, at least at T4 still. FNP isn't as useful as some people think.

One of the things absent from every discussion about Ogryns but one of the things that would go along way to making them good would be their offensive output.

Everyone is focusing on their ability to survive, which is cool and a flavorful "meatshield" element of ogryns

But look at those guns. I'd like to see the offensive output of ogryns be increased dramatically. The ogryns are guys bigger than space marines, and they are carrying guns that are probably too big for them. I understand that they have to be built "ogryn proof" and thats why they are so chunky. But lets put fluff aside.

Would kid kyoto's suggestion look better if the ripper gun was 18" range, assault 2 strength 6 ap 4? This is essentially a shortened range, no shot selection grenade launcher, with 2x shots. Which is exactly what it looks like it does. More than looks and fluff however, it has a nasty shooting output, which i think is essential to all guard units to make them characterful. After their nasty shooting, the enemy can get into combat with them, and the ogryn will be a medium strength tarpit, but they at least did some offensive damage before they got into a combat that they will ultimately wither away from.

That'd be a good way to make them better without giving IG a premier CC unit IMHO.

Shep wrote:That'd be a good way to make them better without giving IG a premier CC unit IMHO.

Why shouldn't Ogryns be a premier CC unit?

They cost an Elite slot, are non-Scoring, and are expensive points relative to regular Guardsmen.

Making them "good" doesn't hurt the rest of the Guard army, but it does open some play and theme options.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Shep wrote:That'd be a good way to make them better without giving IG a premier CC unit IMHO.

Why shouldn't Ogryns be a premier CC unit?

They cost an Elite slot, are non-Scoring, and are expensive points relative to regular Guardsmen.

Making them "good" doesn't hurt the rest of the Guard army, but it does open some play and theme options.

I don't mind them being a premier CC unit if thats the way GW wants to go. But making them T5 4+ armor FNP with two strength 5 attacks at I3 isn't going to make them even close to doing that.

The list of CC units that beats them is almost comically long. Every relevant CC unit in the current meta-game walks through them. You go with that stat line and a shotgun, and I don't really care what you cost them at, they'll have 5 more years on the shelf.

I don't think GW is going to give them more gas in the CC department. But I'm thinking they might not have such a problem with giving them more dakka.

edit: @ Kid Kyoto. Your line of thought is spot on. Feel No Pain can and should be the evolution of multi-wound units. I think it would be best if GW slowly removed multi-wound models and inserted FNP. Sometimes FNP is worth 3 wounds, sometimes not so much, but easier to keep organized and balance against. Just look at nob bikers, had they been single wound with free painboy upgrade and a cost discount then we wouldn't have so many posts clogging up the tactics forums about nob bikers and wound allocation "abuse". But i digress... good suggestion Kid

As above, I wanted to bump their CC up considerably:

WS4 S6 A4+1 Rending with a PF/PW Sergeant

I just can't see Ogryns being T5. That would make them able to shrug off Krak Missiles and Powerfists, and that seems odd.

*Perhaps* T4(5) w/ FnP.