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In almost every thread about Orks, asking about ork army lists...I chime in and suggest Ghazghkull + Nobs in a charging battlewagon. Its been making me think about it...and I honestly don't know what can beat this unit. Chime in with how you'd do it? Here's what it consists of:

Battlewagon (F:14, S:12, R:10) Open-topped, with a Red Paint Job (+1" movement), a Boarding Plank (Lets me assault your vehicles without disembarking), a kannon (Str4 AP5 blast), and a Killakannon (Str7 Ap3 large blast), and a Deffrolla (causes D6 Str.10 hits on a tank shock)

Inside is Ghazghkull Thraka (7 Powerklaw attacks on the charge (Str10), Toughness 5, 4 wounds, invulnerable to instant death, 2+ armor save, 2+ invulnerable save on the Waaugh!)
10 Nobs (All equipped differently, with 3 Powerklaws (Str9 power fist attacks), 3 Big choppas (Str7 Initiative4), and random other stuff. All the nobs have 4+ armour save, 2 wounds, 4+ Feel No Pain, 5+ Cybork Bodies.

Tactically: You can be sure that I work VERY hard to keep the battlewagon in cover, behind cover, screened, etc. When Ghazghkull and crew get out, its because of a Waaugh! (which makes them fearless) and I'm not afraid to split Ghazghkull away from the Nobs if I'm trying to get more range on my assault. When they're out of their battlewagon, I keep everyone in cover as well. I suppose it is possible to work out an assault against Orks, but honestly, it never happens to me; with a 27" assault range, I always get the assault.

When I deploy out of the battlewagon, I have moved 13", I deploy out 2", and if I need to, I split Ghazghkull off (he has a 2" base); he fleets 6" and assaults 2D6 making his turn 2+ assault range 24-29". The Nobs deploy out (1" base) and have a total of 28" assault range. If Ghazghkull and the nobs stay together, then they are all 24-29". I usually split them apart if I see something that can tear my Nobs up (Terminators, power weapons, especially in cover). Ghazghkull then has a 2+ invulnerable save for that round of CC as well as the following round; the next turn I usually join the Nobs and Ghazghkull back together - combat never takes more than 2 turns. =p
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Knowing this, and knowing that I would bring this to the table, without making an army list specifically for me (lets say that we're both in a tournament together and you know I'm there and want to be able to handle me if we happen to play)

How would you beat this unit? Please don't reply with "I'd focus my entire army on it!" because you'd lose the game. The rest of my army would eat you while you killed Ghazghkull. But please; anyone with viable tactics, smart ideas, ways to slow or stop them....what would you do in a game against me to kill or neutralize this threat?

One of the best solutions I've seen thus far was someone who took Abbadon + possessed marines in a Land Raider. Abbadon can carve through a nob unit like a hot knife through butter. That's where I learned about the utility of splitting Ghazghkull off for a turn to assault alone.

Lets hear it!

Id do my bested to use a drop-podding dred and/or a tactical squad with two melta guns to take out that battlewagon. Now the nobz are on foot ill just shoot at your entire army & assault the weaker elements if ive got such units able to. Oh Id also think about combat sqauding the melta-crew as to double-tarpit the orks is nessicary (assuming they survive orky fire.)

After this happens - this is why a thunderfire cannon is awesome. You make every gain the Slow& Purposeful specail rule well not quite but im sure you can see what I mean... Although not saying that id actually field one. . . although Ill try an get over that mental block & try it.

Battlewagon orks are very much a flash in the pan in my opinion. I think a few people are gonna figure out how to beat it very soon.

The way I've figured out how to beat it with tau is to use markerlights and split my army up. In one corner, goes a railhead and some crisis suits, in the middle goes some pathfinders and some broadsides, in the other corner another railhead and some suits. Depending on how you deploy I should be able to get side shots on you.

And cover is pretty hard to get reliably with battlewagons. If you want it, you're going to have to probably lose a turn getting into assault and getting shot somewhere.

I wouldn't bother with all those upgrades on it, best to keep it cheap (I'd go for a big shoota to save your weapon destroyed hurting you).

Sure it's nasty but it's only one unit. You could probably easily get two battlewagons with a unit of meganobz and another one with boyz in for those points. And a KFF so you don't have to worry about hiding. And where are the rams!!

Anyway why would not concentrating your whole army on it not work. I can't see any indication of what else is in your army that's forcing me to not shoot that. As a tau player, my whole philosophy is based on eliminated one target with my entire army!!

Oh and THammer termies would mince the nobs. Abbadon's a tough cookie but I'd love to see him and Mr Yellow go at it

Honestly? With my DW it would eat me alive. best I could do is kill the BW, then avoid the unit.

With my Eldar however, I kill units like this all the time with ease. 2 units of Fire Dragons in WS. The WSs kill the BW either with BLs or EMLs, then 2x 10 squads of Fire Dragons turn the unit into smoldering husks. One unit of FDs puts the hurt on them enough that I can usually finish them off with WWs, but when I REALLY want Nobs/Biker Nobs dead, nothing beats 20x melta shots

20 melta shots wouldn't be good enough. 14 hit, 12 wound, and between 1/2 and 1/3 of those get saved with Ghazzie eating one without issue. So you kill 5 guys, and the rest murder all your meltas.

How would I beat that unit?

Land Raider Crusader w/Multimelta.
Calgar
Lysander
6 Assault Terminators

The Marines will get the charge because a Crusader can kill a Battlewagon while the inverse isn't really true. If the Orks assault the Land Raider, same result. If every nob in the squad has a Power Klaw, they will, on average, kill all the Terminators with a few wounds left over to put onto the hero characters. In return, the Terminators should kill all of the Nobz, so it'll come down to Ghaz versus Calgar/Lysander. He'll probably get one, but not both depending on if he Waaaghs or not. If he does get the Waaagh off, it should literally come down to Ghaz versus Lysander and they'll probably kill each other.

That's only if every Nob has a PK, however. With only 3, it'll be heavily in the favor of the Assault Terminators.

the same way IG beat any fancy assault unit: giggle while your 600+ point unit slays 75 points worth of guardsmen every turn. A chimera moving 12" to block with 2 or 3 battle or demolisher cannons after you've bunched up to blow it up works wonders against nobz as well.

Fallen Angel wrote:
And cover is pretty hard to get reliably with battlewagons.

Surely you jest?

Can only think of one army that has an easier time getting cover saves on their vehicles.

Those 20 fire-dragons have the potentail to nuke the entire squad & dont forget that aswell as the two FD sqauds, theres two wave serpents each one able to kill a nob on thier own. Add in the fact that the nobs will only ever nuke half the firedragons... if ghazzie really wants to charge one on his own then thats cool but really ineffecient/dangerous. So after the first volley of shots there will usually be another 10 dragons worth of fusion gun fire + the two serpents. On the whole 160 ish pts of fire dragons were lost.

2 killpoints vs 4 kill points. 790ish pts vs 600ish pts. Eldar wins. Much easier to deal with than the bikers for simple matter of threat range. You can quite easily reduce these guys threat to 6"+d6+6".

sourclams wrote:20 melta shots wouldn't be good enough. 14 hit, 12 wound, and between 1/2 and 1/3 of those get saved with Ghazzie eating one without issue. So you kill 5 guys, and the rest murder all your meltas.

There is no way that 1/2 will save with only their 5+ invul, unless your dice REALLY love you. 1/3 save is the right math. So, eight (2/3 of the 12 wounds) of the 10 Nobs die (9 if Ghaz eats one shot). Remember, there is also good chance you will lose your Painboy in the volley from the FDs, because you MUST assign him a wound with 12 wounds on the squad, so now you no longer have FNP to protect the Nobs. Remember, in my strategy the WSs shot the BW out from under them in the same turn, so Ghaz probably doesn't have his 2++ from Waagh yet. This means that they are now easy pickings for any other units the Eldar player wants to use in order to finish them off.

Also, don't forget this based on average math..if the FDs roll well to hit, then the entire squad is toast, and there is no need for any other units to get involved.

I have done this mores times to "invincible" nob squads than I can count...against an Eldar player with 2 units of FDs, such a unit of Nobs + Ghaz is only scary if the FDs lose their WSs before they get the chance to fire. And, since there is likely little else that an Ork player will field that Eldar players "need" my FDs for, the loss of them to return fire or assault from boyz matters little.

Nob Bikers are harder beacuse of their speed, plus their 4+ built in cover save.

Alerian wrote:
There is no way that 1/2 will save with only their 5+ invul, unless your dice REALLY love you.

Unless the unit was a happy recipient of a 4+ cover save - which I hear aren't too hard to come by these days - in which case they should save about half of those wounds.
With my luck though it is usually closer to 1/3 on a 4+.

Broadsides on both ends of the field: I play primarily Tau too. =p

When I play Ork and I have a Battlewagon, I either stick it in cover for deployment to restrict firing angles, or I stick Trukks on either side flanking it such that Line of Sight to the sides is blocked, which forces a front shot.

And for whomever said "Why can't I fire the rest of my army at the battlewagon?" its because if you DO....you're going to have 4 other trukks full of boyz and powerklaws along with a full kommando squad (and Snikrot) down your throat...and they're all going to be unmolested.

My strategy for gaming orks is to make you choose. You can work over Ghazghkull and his friends, or go after my other stuff, but you can't get both. I just want to see what the responses to Ghazghkull might be.

Alerian wrote:

There is no way that 1/2 will save with only their 5+ invul, unless your dice REALLY love you. 1

Yeah, I don't really ever take Cybork bodies for a 5+ invulnerable save. The only time I ever need invul saves are in close combat against power weapons, and my dice don't roll good enough to justify the 50 points for a Nob squad.

But Ghazghkull+Nobs are ALWAYS in cover. If you blow up their battlewagon, they get out and are now in a crater (4+ cover save). When they move, they move into cover (forest / building) and I keep 1/2 in cover so I still have a 4+ cover save.

Between 4+ armour, cover, feel no pain, my nobs take tremendous amounts of punishment without getting wounded. Things that ruin my day: Hellhounds, Cover ignoring templates, Str8+ AP2- templates that I fail 4+ cover saves for.

Blow the battlewagon up with anything either fast or extremely anti-tank.

Deep strike 3 chaos terminators behind the wagon and combi-melta it 3 times in the back.

Could possibly deep-strike some of my obliterators behind it as well. Multi-melta is S8 and +2 on dmg chart(open-topped and AP1) at 13-24", S8 + 2D6 dice and +1 on dmg chart at 1-12" away. If I got lucky enough for oblits to drop 1-6" nearby, they could fire TL Meltaguns S8+2D6 and +2 dmg chart.

Oblits in my side of board will also be firing S9 lascannons into front and if possible sides of the wagon.

+2 on the dmg chart for meltas on open-topped makes Glancing hits into penetratings. And penetratings into "Boy, you're dead." Any roll of a 1 and the super gun is destroyed. A 2 from melta would immobilize it (good bye any mobility) and a 3-4-5-6 destroy it.

Once they're out of the transport, they'd be pretty easy to kill with mass Plasma Cannon or Lascannon fire. S7 AP2 blast or S9 AP2 insta-kill = dead nobz. You must allocate a wound to every model before you can stack a second, so Ghaz can't soak up a 2nd wound until every other nob has taken one (or been insta-killed.)

On your turn, without your transport, you're only moving 6" base and probably staying out of assault range, except for the one time in the game when you use your Waagh thing. With two Lash princes and your transport blown up, you'll be walking at least 2d6" backwards (and bunched up for plasma cannon shots) each turn with 1-2 chances to be pinned, so ghaz should never get in range of guns before he's dead.

Plague Marines are also good for receiving a nobz charge, as you lose all charge bonus attacks (that's -2A for ghaz) and they're T4 / 3+ save / FNP. The power fist champion could kill some nobz and probably wound ghaz again. A counter charge of Berserkers with tons of S5 I5 attacks and powerfist attacks would likely obliterate your squad since you've already lost half of your nobz wounds from spreading shooting out to each model.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Alerian wrote:

There is no way that 1/2 will save with only their 5+ invul, unless your dice REALLY love you. 1

Yeah, I don't really ever take Cybork bodies for a 5+ invulnerable save. The only time I ever need invul saves are in close combat against power weapons, and my dice don't roll good enough to justify the 50 points for a Nob squad.

But Ghazghkull+Nobs are ALWAYS in cover. If you blow up their battlewagon, they get out and are now in a crater (4+ cover save). When they move, they move into cover (forest / building) and I keep 1/2 in cover so I still have a 4+ cover save.

Between 4+ armour, cover, feel no pain, my nobs take tremendous amounts of punishment without getting wounded. Things that ruin my day: Hellhounds, Cover ignoring templates, Str8+ AP2- templates that I fail 4+ cover saves for.

Only a 6 result of destroyed gives you a crater (4+ cover save), on a 5, the vehicle is just left where it is and you must dismount. If any of your guys are visible to the enemy they'll probably get no save. You'll be deploying farthest away from the enemy if you get out trying to take cover behind it, and therefore the enemy will back up and be ready to shoot you to death after. If they're not within 12", you won't be able to reach them by Waagh.

boomgun the wagon then boomgun the nobz (instant death)
then charge ghaz with PK nobz with a waaagh banner.

Suicide Crisis Suit with twin-linked Fusion Blaster and Target Array. Buys me a few turns to take the rest of your army.

You could stick Dark Eldar Wyches against them to tie them down possibly forever, all the while whittling them down. Tack on 1-2 lords for good measure.

A Large enough Necron Warrior force say (15ish) with a nearby Res orb and Monolith will hold the unit indefinitely, since they can now get back up from a sweeping advance and can continualy maintain combat once they rez.

1-2 10 man squads of Eldar Fire Dragons will ID them all over the place.

Any marines with the 3+ stormshield

Mass Meltas with Sisters of Battle again will ID them, especially Immo spam /shudder

Other orks with enough Killa Kans and Deff Dreds will maim you enough to where the return hits wont wipe them

A Vindicare assassin using Turbo Penetrator rounds can kill off any of the orks making you vulnerable to morale tests.

A Calidus assassin can make the Nob Squad deply away from the BW

Chaos has a few models like a Defiler that can do some damage in melee before the powerclaws can kill it

etc etc

I think once the battlewagon is destroyed or disembarked that landspeeders with dual heavy flamers could do some serious damage.
3 land speeders put 6 templates down and depending on position can prolly cover 8 orks. That's 48 hits, 32 wounds, with FNP cutting it down to 16 and if they have cybork bodies it goes down to 10.33. That's 8 dead nobs or 5 dead cybork nobs.. not bad for 180 pts..
Sure they'd have to hide to keep from being batted out of the air by lootas, but they wouldn't have to worry TOO much about a counter attack because they'd only get hit by 6's in close combat if I'm not mistaken and even if the nobs did rip them out of the air, for the points you could easily take some close combat unit to charge the remnants and actually have a chance of winning

What crater?

If the vehicle is wrecked then your nobz will disembark out next to it. If the FD's in those mobile wave-serpents were set up properly with this in-mind then atleast one squad will have a clear shot (as each sqaud covers a side each & between them the rear) so, yes, perhaps 1/2 the melta shots will get a cover save.

If the vehicle is destroyed then it is removed from play and replaced by an area of difficult terrain (I assume difficult terrain) representing scattered wreckage or a crater. This does not confer a cover save as it does not mention in the destroyed result nor in the rules for difficult terrain.

So if the vehicle does get annhilated then theres a 1/3 chance of the models getting a 4+ cover from 1/2 the melta shots (1/3 not 1/2 as if a vehicle immobilised result is rolled, the nobz will have to disembark eventually or risk getting the vehicle exploded around their pointy green ears)

Edit: @ TheBloodGod - Difficult ground representing a crater (or scattered wreckage) does not mean a crater that counts as area terrain. It means an area of difficult ground or difficult terrain (IMO)

Gah.. Edit mk2 : @ Ragewind - A unit of necrons that gets subjected to a sweeping advance is destroyed. The entire unit is gone including the downed models. You can argue that the models are ignored for all game purposes but its pretty clear with recent FAQ's & with the new combat rules thats how its apose to work. A unit of necrons would get thier ass kicked.

As for dual-flaming speeders. Yes - so much. Manouverable too. Can go on to (or come from) nuke da boyz aswell.

What crater?

If your vehicle explodes, you're left with a crater where the trukk was and scattered wreckage, and craters are 4+ cover.

If its wrecked and not destroyed, then you leave the battlewagon where it is, and everyone gets out and deploys outside - the battlewagon remains to signify the wreck...its not hard to get 10 models deployed in such a way to give cover methinks.

Anyway, keep the ideas coming!

Loads of genestealers. Backed up with guants and a lictor. Maybe a barbed strangler just to be cute. it's not your entire army but it's a huge chunk. Counter attacks and massed fire after the charge ends Ghaz.

Dashofpepper wrote:What crater?

If its wrecked and not destroyed, then you leave the battlewagon where it is, and everyone gets out and deploys outside - the battlewagon remains to signify the wreck...its not hard to get 10 models deployed in such a way to give cover methinks.

Anyway, keep the ideas coming!

You have to deploy within 2" of the thing, so you can't deploy 10 models in a line backwards. You'll have to wrap around it, which would likely mean your side models are easily visible to guns (no cover save)
Also, if I walk a squad of oblits sideways a few more inches, there's almost no chance your nobz are all in cover.

Also, if you deploy to not get shot to death, then you're probably more than 13" away from me on your next turn.

It's not possible for your squad on foot to assault anything that's passed the 12" range. With the battlewagon being several inches long and you deploying backwards behind it, adds plenty of room.

So either you're in the open and dakka'd lots, or you're getting maybe-possibly-cover and far away from melee + enemy can just back up units near it.

Nob Bikers seem far more annoying. As soon as the transport goes down, your unit has no mobility except once-per-game.

Razerous wrote:What crater?



Edit: @ TheBloodGod - Difficult ground representing a crater (or scattered wreckage) does not mean a crater that counts as area terrain. It means an area of difficult ground or difficult terrain (IMO)

Cover section

"Wreckage, Craters, Wrecked Vehicles" 4+ cover save.

Vehicle section
All models within d6" take a S3 AP- hit. "Vehicle is then removed and replaced with an area of difficult ground representing* scattered wreckage or a crater (if you have one)."

A clarification would be nice, but it's safe to assume since both keywords mentioned are 4+ cover save objects specifically listed in the cover section that a crater could be used at the spot. (Only for Destroyed! results, NOT for wrecked.)

You're only get one object when it explodes, which'll be a small crater right where it exploded. The first sentence says models in range (D6") suffer S3 AP- hits because the thing exploded. If it mentioned a Blast Marker or Large Blast template, then it'd be safe to assume otherwise. But there's no indication of the size of the damage, so the d6" has to be assumed to be an AOE-from-explosion thing.

Otherwise someone could have one rhino explode and then place "debris" that's 10x10 or 15x15 and wipe out an entire horde of orks with it, because if you were trying to say the d6" is where some type of terrain goes instead of the attack range, then there is no terrain size listed.

nuhuh. Nope. Its the linear progression in which the sentence

Reprenting clearly implies is the image of the scene, its not refering to actual rules.

What tells us the workings of what happens is the Difficult ground bit. I.e difficult terrain.

just blow the fething wagon up and laugh at the orks footslogging at D6 per turn thanks to having ghaz with em

JD21290 wrote:just blow the fething wagon up and laugh at the orks footslogging at D6 per turn thanks to having ghaz with em

Ah, you're right.

It definitely is nice to know that Ghaz is in constant difficult terrain, and so are his boys if he's joining them so he can soak up lascannon shots that would 1-shot them.

Gah.. Edit mk2 : @ Ragewind - A unit of necrons that gets subjected to a sweeping advance is destroyed. The entire unit is gone including the downed models. You can argue that the models are ignored for all game purposes but its pretty clear with recent FAQ's & with the new combat rules thats how its apose to work. A unit of necrons would get thier ass kicked.

Try again

They removed it from the FAQ and the 5th ed rulebook says a unit that is caught in a sweeping advance is "Destroyed" and guess what WBB includes in its list? That's right "Destroyed", they can get back up if they have another unit of Warriors within 6 inches or a Tomb Spyder nearby. The lord, of course, always has a chance to get back up. A new chance at life if you ask me, I was even toying around with the idea to include more than 20 warriors in my army.

EDIT: Incidentally Ghaz as a special character, has Move Through Cover so he actually rolls 3d6 for his slow and purposeful. Since ya know, "The model is always considered to be moving through cover"

Breaking this down:

Ghaz @ 225 points
10 Nobz tooled out @ 350 points
Battlewagon as described @ 150 points

It's a hard 3 units, but quite expensive. I have two armies that I use and I'll base what I'd do with what I actually play with.

Ulthwe themed Eldar: Eldrad and 10 Warlocks (Fortune, Enhance, Embolden) are my counter assault unit. Hopefully, Fuegan has done his job. If so, hopefully, I'll get LOS to the Painboy for Mind War. It's not great odds, but if I can snipe out the Feel No Pain, I will. I'd also hit the BW with Eldritch Storm to hopefully spin it around so Fuegan or Dragons don't have to shoot it in the front armor. A Seer Council has been a very durable and annoying tarpit unit for nearly all of my opponents.

Fuegan: With Crack Shot, he can ignore any cover saves on the vehicle. It will be fairly easy to get him within 9 inches to shoot it. S8 + 2d6 penetration won't be hard to penetrate; +1 melta, +1 open topped makes it easier to destroy the Battlewagon.

Secondary shooters: 5 Fire Dragons including Exarch who also has Firepike and Crack Shot. I'd hope to not have use this unit and would position it in such a way as to make a trukk also a target. I don't want to expend too much on the Battlewagon.

The other 4 truckks are getting shot at by every tank (4 Wave Serpents and 2 Falcons 1 Fire Prism) in my army. I play a mechanized list, so I'm not horribly concerned with Snikrot coming in on 2nd turn at the earliest. I've only got 2 tanks that really need to be close to the battlewagon and everything else and peck away at a distance.

My two additional troop choices are 2x3 Jetbikes. They are held in reserve and (hopefully) I roll bad for reserves. The later they come in for objective grabbing, the better.

Eldrad's Divination will help me get the more desirable position over the Ork mech rush.

It's not an easy task, but I'd feel comfortable my army is balanced enough to fight off the Orks and still get objectives. My troop choices are Guardians (surprises many folks) with lots of Destructor and Flamer templates. This roots out dug in Orks very well.

My Orks are actually less suited to go against this list. Truthfully, I'd have to do things that I feel are too risky. I'd probably have to feed you a 30 strong squad just to draw your unit out of the Battlewagon, then counter attack with my Nob bikers. I don't particularly like this so, I'll concede that I really don't have a good counter to your army with my Orks.

Ragewind wrote:

Gah.. Edit mk2 : @ Ragewind - A unit of necrons that gets subjected to a sweeping advance is destroyed. The entire unit is gone including the downed models. You can argue that the models are ignored for all game purposes but its pretty clear with recent FAQ's & with the new combat rules thats how its apose to work. A unit of necrons would get thier ass kicked.

Try again

They removed it from the FAQ and the 5th ed rulebook says a unit that is caught in a sweeping advance is "Destroyed" and guess what WBB includes in its list? That's right "Destroyed", they can get back up if they have another unit of Warriors within 6 inches or a Tomb Spyder nearby. The lord, of course, always has a chance to get back up. A new chance at life if you ask me, I was even toying around with the idea to include more than 20 warriors in my army.

EDIT: Incidentally Ghaz as a special character, has Move Through Cover so he actually rolls 3d6 for his slow and purposeful. Since ya know, "The model is always considered to be moving through cover"

There is not once a mention of the word 'destroyed' in the rules for WBB, the rez orb. In the FAQ it mentions if a unit is destroyed in close-combat that cancels an armor save. Well being swept down specifically mentions not allowing a save. Infact it also mentions unless specified no special rule may be used either. This could include the rez orb. Although the rez orb mentions in regards to weapons. Sweeping advances simply remove the unit from the table. There are no "weapons" involved.

Warriors could not easily beat this 'uber' unit.

Page 50 Minidex

"The Falling Back unit is automatically destroyed"

Page 13 Necron Codex

"Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, Or otherwise removed as a casualty remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side.."

Emphasis mine

Further down on page 13 it does mention "Destroy" but by a CCW, so my apologies.

The Codex in this case trumps the main rule book with a specific exception to the sweeping advance rule. On top of that a Res Orb is not a Special Rule, but a piece of Wargear that grants a ability like Bionics. I am pretty much assured that " or otherwise is removed as a Casualty" is all inclusive and it the Codex's way of telling you that you get a chance to get back up no matter what. The only specifics to beat WBB is listed in its description and a Res Orb neatly bypasses that.

Might want to go check the FAQ again, they have since removed the ruling that they do not get a WBB if subjected to the effects of a sweeping advance.

The Day Necron Warriors (even with a lords support) takes down a full unit of Mega Nobs is the day I eat my hat! However tarpitting them in combat for the rest of the game is also another way of "Beating" them, since it removes them from participating in the rest of the game.