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Shoot battle wagon.
Lash.
Lash.
Laugh.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:Shoot battle wagon.
Lash.
Lash.
Laugh.

How do you beat cheesy orks? With cheesy Chaos!

I'm not sure that a 581095809 point Ork unit not on bikes is effective enough to qualify as cheesy.

Squad of 6 Firedragons in a WS, Let you try and Ram, on a 4+ the skimmer stops it nothing is done, next turn i move, Pile out and shoot up side armor with some melta weapons. THen anything that survives that will get shot with SL war walkers or Dire avengers. Keep out of range /w the WS to not have to worry bout that plank and just let Torrent of fire work. A Farseer with Mind War can knock off that HQ of yours and Doom will make DA better. Dark reapers would work wonders too. Lots of things can kill that squad, yes it is dead stompy but indestructible...no.

Guys, less acronyms if they aren't accepted by the filter here. Please. =p

If you're talking about WS and SL and I hover over it and don't see anything related to 40k, then you shouldn't be using them.

I *KNOW* that Ghazghkull + Nobs in a battlewagon are not impervious to destruction. What I want to know is how you as players would destroy this unit using as little effort (or realistic effort) as possible. I've been phenomonally successful with a mechanized Ork list, that consists of Ghazghkull + Nobs in a battlewagon, and then as many trukks full of boyz as I can fit in. I ALWAYS get in assault turn 2, usually with my whole army. I'm very strategic about terrain placement and firing lanes, so my trukks and battlewagons are usually getting at least some cover saves.

As for the battlewagon blown up bit...wreckage, craters, and wrecked vehicles all fit into the category of 4+ cover saves. Even when Ghazghkull and the nobs get blown out of their spiffy ride, they're going to sit in cover taking 4+ saves, and 4+ feel no pain for most things. And when they move out next turn...they're going to move from cover to cover. =p

Anyway, continue with the ideas!

Well, 8 Bloodcrushers + Skulltaker kill it on the charge (like most things!), but I'm having trouble figuring out how they get the charge (again, like most things). Taking it on the chin they only do 10 wounds and kill nothing :(

my bad. Im srry, i dint know that WS and SL would be be picked up by filter. WS=Wave Serpent (eldar), SL=Scatter Laser (Eldar)

With my Space Marines? I'd have a number of options, since I run various builds. My drop pod list, I'd drop a Dread and Sternguard squad right there. Have the dread pop the wagon, and then have my Sternguard dump hellfire rounds into the nobs. It wouldn't wipe the whole mob out, and probably wouldn't wound Gaz at all, but it would reduce their strength enough that the Sternguard and the Dread could probably wreck the rest enough to remove them as a major threat.

My "fun" list, I'd probably run my land raider crusader that holds the Chapter Master, Chaplain, and Honor Guard squad loaded with Relic Blades and Chapter Banner right up to the Battlewagon. I'd pop it, then charge the mob with my squad. My champion would for sure get cut down by Gaz, but theres a decent chance he'd wound him a time or two with his 5 rerollable power weapon attacks. The rest of the squad would probably devestate the nobs. 17 relic blade attacks that get to reroll to hit and wound on twos, then the chappies 5 attacks. I generally keep an assualt squad near that to help matters out, since I find those two working in proximity will over power just about anything out there. If things begin to go bad for the Honor Guard, I'd have them charge in to clean up.

For my Eldar? I'd probably concentrate on shooting them to death. I'd pop the battlewagon with my falcons, then I'd have a wave serpant dump it's scatter lasers into the nobs, and dump some Dire Avengers down to Blade Storm them. I don't usually do farseers, but if I take one it's usually Eldrad. He'd make it his mission to mind war Gaz to death. My HQ is usually a Phoenix Lord, Asurman or Fuegan. If it's Asurman, he'll be with those Dire Avengers. Fuegan would be with a squad of Fire Dragons that would be supporting those Dire Avengers in removing the threat. Both are pretty nasty in Close Combat. I'd definitely charge the Dire Avengers with Asurman into the survivors. The Defend would really limit attacks, leaving the surviving Nobs with just two attacks a peice to make.

All in all, I don't think I'd have a major problem "beating" that unit. I consider myself good enough to either devote the needed forces to handle it, or keep myself far enough away from it to keep it's danger at a minimum if I have more pressing threats to deal with.

EDIT: Incidentally Ghaz as a special character, has Move Through Cover so he actually rolls 3d6 for his slow and purposeful. Since ya know, "The model is always considered to be moving through cover"

EDIT: Ghaz does actually have Move Through Cover, but only when he does not join a unit.

As a nid player that battle wagon would be the only the only target for my 3 VCs I nearly always use. After its been reduced to what it started out as (scrap metal) a couple of waves of stealers plus tyrant w/ guard should finish the nobs and ghazghull off. Sure it may take a turn or two and I would lose a couple of broods and maybe the guard, but after ghazghull loses his waagh, he will go down. Also, Its not really putting much pressure on my list. A few broods of my stealers are considered expendable and the tyrant would love to get into cc with an expensive unit like that.

Further reviewing a couple of things, I still think my best bet is using my typical Eldar army (1750-2000 point range).

Dash- It's a hard unit, but you keep adding a lot of what if's that I don't think is too realistic. You've indicated you typically are in assault by turn 2, yet always manage to ensure you've got the vehicle in cover and/or the Nobz will be moving from cover to cover.

Trukks screening for the Battlewagon seems most logical. Careful terrain placement may not be all that realistic. The only time I can remember placing terrain in a tourney was in Jacksonville. In every tourney I've participated in in NC, the terrain is already pre-positioned.

I think simply focussing on what can stop your combo is the most realistic you can get. Terrain and missions really make it hard to armchair quarterback everything.

Back on my Eldar army, I forgot to mention that my Seer Council will have multiple Destructors.

So in order:

Eldrad Guides Fuegan and/or Fire Dragons.
Eldrad Fortunes Seer Council
If legal, Eldrad casts Doom on Nob unit
Eldrad/Seer Council's Wave Serpent moves in front of Battlewagon.
Fuegan and/or Fire Dragons get out of respective Wave Serpent and/or Falcon, shoot down Battlewagon. Everybody is taking a S3 wound from explosion (if all goes well) with rerolls. I may get a wound or two.
Nobz in crater, bunched up. Multiple Destructor templates should get a lot of S5, AP4 hits w/ no cover save allowed, also with re-rolls to wound.

This won't kill the unit, but the Nobz and Ghaz will most likely charge the Seer Council. They will strike first and tarpit the Nobz.

Of course, there are a lot of assumptions, but from your posts, your Battlewagon looks to be racing forward as fast as possible.

When you say "tarpit" does it mean throwing units in front of an enemy to slow them down?

IE, sacrificial units to tie something up (necron scarabs for example?) My tournament play is *VERY* limited; if other tournaments have pre-set terrain, that's new to me! I'll adapt and get along with it though.

For the GTs, is terrain pre-placed or do the players set it up for their games?

sourclams wrote:20 melta shots wouldn't be good enough. 14 hit, 12 wound, and between 1/2 and 1/3 of those get saved with Ghazzie eating one without issue. So you kill 5 guys, and the rest murder all your meltas.

Actually, unless he rolls very well on his cybork body invulnerable saves the ork player should only make 4 of the 12 required saves. One wound on Ghaz and seven dead nobs would be the average outcome. That would leave three nobs and Ghaz. Also, due to the wound allocation rules, there's a very good chance that the painboy will be one of the casualties, and the unit would lose it's FNP. The remainder of the unit should be easy to remove in the next turn.

Greetings, as a new convert to chaos from orks I have a little insight on this unit. I've run something similar to it, but there are a couple of things that actually will blunt this unit. It's very similar in concept to the nob biker group, while effective it does have some specific counters. I know of a couple from the chaos list. Note I'm basing this on the premise that I am NOT USING LASH. I like it, but I like working without it most of the time. I usually only use lash when it's a tourney game and feel that I will have a really hard time.

First up the transport, the battle wagon is prime melta fodder. I will try to deploy my front line units far enough away that I will have one turn. I usually run a couple of oblits, so I can garauntee it's getting their attention the first turn. Assuming I pop the vehicle which will most likely be headed toward one of my primary units I will throw down my roadblock unit called the Kharmoon special. This consists of 4 chaos termies, 1 heavy flamer, 3 combi meltas and 1 power fist, mark of slaanesh attached to the termie squad is Abbadon

Abbadon is pretty much the key to breaking the nob unit. This idea is making a number of assumptions, if I feel that it would be too risky based on deployment I may start with the termi/lord squad on the table and walk them into the roadblock position. Never the less the combi meltas and heavy flamer should be able to down insta gib a couple nobs with a generous number of wounds added from the heavy flamer.

The basic way to handle the nob unit + ghazkull is pretty much to ignore ghazkull and get the daemon weapon rocking on the nobs, he should be able to down a number of them way before they get a chance to attack. The termi squad if they are charged will still get the first strike along with the Chaos lord and kill a good number of nobs before they even get the chance to attack. With the chaos lord downing a significant number of nobs before the termies get to attack it will prevent the spreading out of power weapon wounds and help take down the squad even further before the power claw attacks come down.

By the time the orks get to swing your going to be looking at a painboy, ghazkull and the PK nobs, you should be able to survive the resultant melee unless the dice gods are not in your favor that day. The remaining combat can be cleaned up by Abbadon and the rest of the Kharmoon squad. Abbadon is the heart of this unit, but he will not carry it by himself.

Abbadon is indeed a great way to kill Nobs. One of our local chaos players has been taking it in armies against me, and my solution thus far has been to let Ghazghkull take on Abbadon + attachments solo for his turn/next turn. If he can't kill Abbadon outright in the two turns with all his attacks, he usually takes him down to 1 wound left. Then, I'll countercharge my detached Nobs into his Terminator squad (or possessed marines is what I keep seeing) and my nobs will batter down his unit while he suffers from the restrictions of multi-charge complex unit assaults.

But yeah - Abbadon is a beast. I've managed (in every game so far) to prevent him from getting to beat on my Nobs.

The Seer Council is a tarpit unit. In this particular case, they would accept your Nobs/Ghaz charge and be able to withstand it. While the Seer Council may not be able to put out the wounds on the Nobz, they won't take many either. With a 4+ re-roll and Eldrad with a 3+ re roll invulnerable saves, they become quite resilient. Even if they lose combat, it typically won't be by much and they have a LD10 with a reroll for morale.

In effect, they can stop the Nobz/Ghaz from tearing through the rest of the army. In this particular case, I still have a huge amount of my army which can block off Ork reinforcements. Granted, my tarpit unit is also expensive in the range of your Nob/Ghaz combo.

The last GT I went to was Baltimore in Nov 2007. Terrain was fixed.

I've played in a few tourneys at Scifi Genre and one at the Castle in Greensboro- terrain was placed and fixed for each game.

The Hobbit's tourneys in Fayetteville also set up terrain prior to the tourney and it is fixed.

I'm not sure how All Fun and Games in Cary handles terrain.

I played in Orlando's Historicon last summer and terrain was also set up prior to the tourney.

War Dogs has been the only place I can remember playing in a tourney where the players place terrain each game. Something you may want to keep in mind after you move.

You can't argue with tactics that fundamentally sound.

G

Sarigar wrote:Breaking this down:

Ghaz @ 225 points
10 Nobz tooled out @ 350 points
Battlewagon as described @ 150 points

It's a hard 3 units, but quite expensive. I have two armies that I use and I'll base what I'd do with what I actually play with.

Ulthwe themed Eldar: Eldrad and 10 Warlocks (Fortune, Enhance, Embolden) are my counter assault unit. Hopefully, Fuegan has done his job. If so, hopefully, I'll get LOS to the Painboy for Mind War. It's not great odds, but if I can snipe out the Feel No Pain, I will. I'd also hit the BW with Eldritch Storm to hopefully spin it around so Fuegan or Dragons don't have to shoot it in the front armor. A Seer Council has been a very durable and annoying tarpit unit for nearly all of my opponents.

Fuegan: With Crack Shot, he can ignore any cover saves on the vehicle. It will be fairly easy to get him within 9 inches to shoot it. S8 + 2d6 penetration won't be hard to penetrate; +1 melta, +1 open topped makes it easier to destroy the Battlewagon.

Secondary shooters: 5 Fire Dragons including Exarch who also has Firepike and Crack Shot. I'd hope to not have use this unit and would position it in such a way as to make a trukk also a target. I don't want to expend too much on the Battlewagon.

The other 4 truckks are getting shot at by every tank (4 Wave Serpents and 2 Falcons 1 Fire Prism) in my army. I play a mechanized list, so I'm not horribly concerned with Snikrot coming in on 2nd turn at the earliest. I've only got 2 tanks that really need to be close to the battlewagon and everything else and peck away at a distance.

My two additional troop choices are 2x3 Jetbikes. They are held in reserve and (hopefully) I roll bad for reserves. The later they come in for objective grabbing, the better.

Eldrad's Divination will help me get the more desirable position over the Ork mech rush.

It's not an easy task, but I'd feel comfortable my army is balanced enough to fight off the Orks and still get objectives. My troop choices are Guardians (surprises many folks) with lots of Destructor and Flamer templates. This roots out dug in Orks very well.

My Orks are actually less suited to go against this list. Truthfully, I'd have to do things that I feel are too risky. I'd probably have to feed you a 30 strong squad just to draw your unit out of the Battlewagon, then counter attack with my Nob bikers. I don't particularly like this so, I'll concede that I really don't have a good counter to your army with my Orks.

I've had precious few opportunities to play against Eldar.

Sarigar, when we move I hope that you and I can get together so I can learn about your Eldar! =)

That squad s amazing, but if its THAT expensive, then it may not be worth it.

With guard:

2 x Anti Tank teams with lascannons to take out the Wagon
2 x Demolishers to hit the survivors

If the survivors want to use a wreck for cover, fine, I hope they don't roll many 1s coming out of the dangerous terrain.

After the heavies go to town, roll up with veteran and/or grenadier plasma squads for double tap goodness. There may well be survivors, so I would probably run a throway infantry unit in front of the grenadiers/vets, so that next turn they get butchered in assault and the vets/grenadiers can then do their thing a second time, finishing off the rest.

It takes a LOT of army to deal with this sort of unit, but it I've done it to knobs, plaguemarines in landaraiders, biker nobs, etc.

I'm game, but time is limited. I'm out in Arizona now til mid May for training and I'm back off for Iraq come September.

I think the unit combo is worth it. The Nobz, while expensive, are a Troop choice which adds to their value. It's hard to ignore a unit that can dish out lots of damage and can be a scoring unit.

It's yet another reason I like the Ork codex. There are a lot of ways to make a reasonably decent army. I'm yet to play against identical Ork armies. They make for great modelling and painting opportunities as well.

TheBloodGod wrote:

EDIT: Incidentally Ghaz as a special character, has Move Through Cover so he actually rolls 3d6 for his slow and purposeful. Since ya know, "The model is always considered to be moving through cover"

Wrong.

Ghaz does not have Move-Through-Cover. He only rolls 2d6 and chooses highest for moving through difficult terrain.

Snikrot assassin guy is the only one with move-through-cover.

Wrong

All independent characters have Move Through Cover and Skilled Rider for free

Time to go take a look at the main rulebook

I have actually had to fight this battlewagon ghaz unit before with both my CSM and my Orks.

With CSM i find that a couple of Obliterators and a squad of termies can usually take this out, obliterators deep strike in and kill the battlewagon and then the Terminators come in up front with an autocannon or 2 and tear into the nobs at range. Once the units are within charge range terminators all have PW so they will usually attack before the nobs and i find i often kill most of the rest of the squad in first turn of CC, second turn usually finishes it. Granted, this does rely on getting the early deep strike it works so long as you can take out the battle wagon early in some form... Usually.

As for dealing with that as orks, i have found a single group of meganobz can at least tie the squad up for a large portion of the game. As for killing it it comes down to large mob fire to kill off the remaining units after the inevitable CC.

This is just my personal experience though.

OMGNOWAI!

You learn something every day, and I just learned that all independent characters have the special rule "Move Through Cover" which gives an extra dice roll to his difficult terrain tests. Thanks Rage!!

I'll be 3D6ing Ghazghkull from now on.

Kilrath wrote:Once the units are within charge range terminators all have PW so they will usually attack before the nobs and i find i often kill most of the rest of the squad in first turn of CC

Kilrath, I have a question for you.

Presuming you kill the Batlewagon and leave Ghazghkull and his nobs on the ground, they're now sitting inside a crater amongst a field of difficult terrain. You've got to 2D6 your assault to get to me, and since you're assaulting into cover, you go last. However, the only things I have that can really kill you are my powerklaws.

Will my powerklaws go first, or will a unit assaulting through cover go simultraneously? Is it "they go last" or "their initiative is one?"

HMMM that's a tuff unit now i have beaten a nod hoard in a battle wagon(this was 4ed) but the idea is still the same. i blow up the trans with my bassie. and as the nods marched at my lines my HB squad cut them down with some help from my stormtroopers with plasma guns. and the dice gods were with me, now my 1K Sons that's something to think about. my .02

Dash- If Chaos terms with Powerweapons charge into cover at your Nobz, your non powerklaw armed Nobz will strike before the Terminators. The Terminators don't have Frag or Plasma grenades to offset the cover, so they will be attacking at Initiative 1, simultaneous with the Nob Powerklaws.

IC's definitely have Move Through Cover. Just be mindful about whether he is with a squad or on his own.

Sarigar, if Ghazghkull has Move through cover, the squad is going to move at the speed of 3D6, because they wouldn't have to be taking difficult terrain tests if he wasn't present - just moving a full 6" (presuming that there wasn't actual area terrain getting in the way).

If Ghazghkull + Nobs are now in actual cover...I'm not sure. Aren't his bonuses going to transfer to the character?

Dashofpepper wrote:Sarigar, if Ghazghkull has Move through cover, the squad is going to move at the speed of 3D6, because they wouldn't have to be taking difficult terrain tests if he wasn't present - just moving a full 6" (presuming that there wasn't actual area terrain getting in the way).

If Ghazghkull + Nobs are now in actual cover...I'm not sure. Aren't his bonuses going to transfer to the character?

Actually if he joins a unit of Nobs that do not somehow gain "Move Through Cover" then they still only roll 2d6, since the USR is lost by joining the unit. You can put in in a squad of Kommandos and they keep it since they all have MOve through Cover anyway

that is a good unit but nothing an orbital bombardment can't handle.