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I had a dual lash build which I converted to a dual demon prince single lash\warptime build.
We have a tournament coming and I was told that any twin prince or dual lash build will be dinged heavily. I was also told that replacing a demon with a pimped sorcerer would not be looked on favorably. :( I need to mod my list to be more in line with the judges opinions of fair and competative.
Here is what I had in mind:

HQ 305
Demon Prince, wings, mos, los
Chaos lord, termy armor, mos, blissgiver

Elite 165
4 Terminators, powerfist, chainfist X 2, heavy flamer

Troops 726
7 Plague Marines, champ with power weapon, 2 plasma rifles, personal icon, rhino
7 Noise Marines, 6 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, personal icon, rhino
7 Khorne Berserkers, skull champ with powerfist, personal icon, rhino

Heavy Support 300
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

Points: 1496
Victory points: 11
Model count: 31

The berserkers move forward to pound lashed units. The plague marines take a forward objective and camp. The noise marines camp on a rear objective. I deep strike with both oblit squads and the termy/lord squad. I have personal icons in all 3 troop units, so the oblits can set up to the rear a bit and the termies can get stuck in with the berserkers or where needed.

Those judges are so lame for that. It isn't like the list is unbeatable. Will Nob Bikers get the same treatment? I mean, seriously. I hate people who cry "Cheese" when people use a strong list.

The list looks good for fluff (Black Legion, much?). You won't lose points on that. Otherwise, I prefer PFists with my PMs. From what I have seen, Meltas are useful as well in that squad (though FNP on those Plas is nice).

All I can think of right now.

I'd go with melta or flamers on the PMs, and a fist instead of a PW (I3 on the power weapon is annoying, may as well go for the gusto). But I wouldn't argue that the change is necessary, just personal preference.

I dont have a plague marine with a powerfist. :(
I wanted plasma to shoot from the rhino at a distance, but seeing as how thay will be on forward objectives anyway, a flamer and melta might be in order.

Nob bikers are going to get hammered as well. 1 squad of less than 10 will be acceptable, more willl be penalized. (good for me there...)

What about fateweaver/bloodcrushers, or mass bloodcrushers, or 45 lootas (just listing current lists I see complained about)

Just wondering, since if certain power lists are neutered or illegal, then horde orks may be more likely to happen and make you want even more flamers.

Tourneys with comp. scores are dumb, imo. You should make a stink about it, if they penalize you for a Lash. Yours is clearly not a power-build. Nob Bikers are not either, unless it is ~20, but even that is a huge amount of points devoted to a unit that can still be ripped up by smart players (AP1 or AP2 Str8 blasts does the trick!).

As for the PFist and Meltas/Flamers, just preference, but I think Lamdaomy is right about Hordes. Expect it, so bring Flamers. Won't be a big liability not to have Meltas, since you have Oblits, Noise Marines, etc.

They are trying to balance the games. i don't necessarily agree, but I understand. Any spam lists will be penalized as well. The talked to a friend about his copy of my shooty orkz build ( 45 lootas, 2 big meks with sag, 2 squads of 30 shootas and stuff ) and told him the same thing. They basically called everyone that turned in a list they deemed questionable ( 9 of 12 .)
:(

I don't think I am losing a lot taking the lord, he will be a beast in combat. If I can't run dual lash, he is a solid second choice. He will kill a ton of orks a turn, and the termies will take more. A squad of 30 shouldn't last a turn when the berserkers and termie squad charge them.

If you take a really bad list will the TOs automatically award you points to make things 'fair'? I stay away from competitions like this because, contrary to popular belief, there is far too much variation in armylists to adjust the scores of each list to make it on par with the lowest common denominator.

It also makes it harder for us to give you advice if something we sugest may dock you points based on a TOs whim.

If you cant take a second prince or a basic sorcerer then dont take a second HQ choice. Lords are that bad that i would prefer to have more terminators, PMs or NMs.

Your plague marines should have meltas. Rhinos arent good as firebases by themselves and you dont get much range on those plasmas anyway. Grab a CSM champion and convert him to look like a PM champ with a fist. It really is worth it.

If you intend on using the NM rhino as mobile cover then fine, otherwise drop it and get more noise marines.

I think you could do with a few more terminators (get points from dropping the lord) and they could do with some combi-meltas to pop tanks on the turn they deepstrike.

I take it that youre also unable to take more oblits or i would tell you to grab another 2

Given the conditions imposed on you its a good army list. I wouldnt have incredibly high hopes for doing well however. There are too many armies that are often thought of as tier 2 that will slip through the comp score net and do very well because everyone else has been forced to take sub-par army lists.

Is there any value in a doom siren in addition to the blastmaster?

I may sound like a total noob, but what is lashing? Is there a place that I can read up on it?

Chaos Codex - lash of submission

Psychic power - cast it, pick a target within 24". If you pass your psychic test, you get to move the targeted unit 2d6 inches. Target then takes a pinning check.

wow, that's a pretty sick spell. I guess it could be gay but, if its in the codex it's not to really be complained about i guess.

I found some bits. List updated.

HQ 155
Demon Prince, wings, mos, los

Troops 894
8 Plague Marines, champ with power fist and melta bomb, 1 melta, 1 flamer, personal icon, rhino
8 Noise Marines, champ with power fist and doom siren, 7 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, personal icon, rhino
10 Khorne Berserkers, skull champ with powerfist, personal icon, rhino

Heavy Support 450
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

Points: 1499
Victory points: 10
Model count: 36

I hope that will be a more effective, competative list. Should hold up against hoard and meq... ...thoughts on the new build?

Still looks low in models, but that's probably because I love orks and am used to seeing a ton of units on the battlefield. Is that typical for a 1500 pt CSM army?

New list is better, assuming you wont get dinged for 6 oblits. Larger squad sizes also seems better than the terminators. Good luck!

Aside from that random meltabomb, I like it. As lambda said, I hope they don't get you on the Oblits, but those are just too good not to take.

My suggestion: Do your hardest to find better tournaments to go to. :(

I know that isn't necessarily feasible, but when they are telling you things like this, it means that invariably someone is GOING to get burned. Hope it isn't you mate.

I disagree. There are plenty of great, well run tournaments with comp rules or restrictions. Anyone who thinks the game as is is perfect is smoking something. Not to say that these comp restrictions always (or ever) make the game *better*, but so long as it's a good faith effort I don't mind it. Unfortunately here they don't have clear rules, it seems more like it's "I don't like that list - change it" which is obviously harder to trust/accept. Anyway, good luck!

I find that Chaos Terminators are infinitely flexible, and I would definitely consider dropping 2 Oblits and taking a squad of 3-4 of them. 2-3 Combi Flamers and a Heavy Flamer when Deep Striked correctly will burn a hole (hah!) in a horde army, and still be able to cause some damage afterwards. Alternatively you could take the Reaper and some Combi Meltas and pop some light to heavy tanks (based on range). If youre lucky, sniping those pesky T3 things with the Reaper is great fun

You could also give them all lightning claws and the MoS so they tear up MEQ in melee before they get to attack. Terminators are really awesome and the Chaos list allows for many different roles. You just need to think on how you want to use them.

And yes I know Obliterators are amazing as well, but you have 6 so you might be hit a bit on your comp scores for that.

Also drop the PF on the Noise Marines. With all those Sonic Blasters youre going to want to keep them a mobile shooting/support unit (remember the Blastmaster also causes pinning).

Plasma guns are infinitely better on Plague Marine units since if they do explode themselves, they not only get their normal save but also their FNP as well (extra survivability is always nice).

These are of course just my opinions on what I'd change... but isn't that what this thread is for?

I think when you play games with a list restriction, it adds some more tactical decisions when creating your force. The problem, it seems, with this tournament is that as Lambadomy said its more of a "I dont like it so change it" rule which is rather dumb, for lack of better word.

EDIT: Oh I forgot... Chosen in a Rhino is brutal! When they come in from their Outflank move sporting 5 meltaguns or 5 flamers, youre laughing as they pop a tank/melt some faces!

Inigo Montoya wrote:I found some bits. List updated.

HQ 155
Demon Prince, wings, mos, los

Troops 894
8 Plague Marines, champ with power fist and melta bomb, 1 melta, 1 flamer, personal icon, rhino
8 Noise Marines, champ with power fist and doom siren, 7 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, personal icon, rhino
10 Khorne Berserkers, skull champ with powerfist, personal icon, rhino

Heavy Support 450
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

Points: 1499
Victory points: 10
Model count: 36

I hope that will be a more effective, competative list. Should hold up against hoard and meq... ...thoughts on the new build?

Much better, but if the TO wont let you take 2 princes then i doubt you will get away with 6 oblits.

Just a couple of things really. Your plague marines should have 2 meltas. A single flamer really wont do much and you should leave your horde killing to your oblits and noise marines.

Your noise marine squad is doing too many things. Blastmasters want to be stood still, not running about in rhinos, and champions want to be running about in rhinos not stood still. Do one or the other but not both. If you would prefer a more aggressive NM squad give the champion a doom siren and a power weapon (to better take advantage of the high I) and drop the blastmaster. Otherwise drop the champion and get another few noise marines. Its better to focus on one thing so that they are more effective at it, rather than them suck at trying to do both.

Refined to this. I have never played this list in the fashion that will be required without 2 princes. I guess I could hold the noise marines and oblits in reserve and position the plague marines and berserkers to stay alive for a couple of turns. Move the prince up when the reserves start coming in... ...i dunno.

HQ 155
Demon Prince, wings, mos, los

Troops 894
9 Plague Marines, champ with power fist, 2 Plasma guns, personal icon, rhino
9 Noise Marines, 8 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster, personal icon, rhino
10 Khorne Berserkers, skull champ with powerfist, personal icon, rhino

Heavy Support
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators

Won't you get knocked for having 6 Oblits? That seems like its "spam" which your TO will ding points for. I know it is a largel subpar switch, but perhaps a Vindicator in place of 2 Oblits? It'll save you on comp a bit. If you work points around you can make it a deflier instead of you fancy them over Vindicators.

Perhaps something else to consider would be to drop 2 Oblits and a couple of models off the PMs and NMs and get a Land Raider for the Berserkers to ride in. Its an AV14 mobile fortress that can score if you have a troops unit inside of it, and it can deliver your Berserkers to combat rather quickly. It can also completely block LOS to your Prince which, seeing as you have only 1, can be very helpful for keeping it alive for an extra turn or two.

Sorry dude but lash and 6 oblits is still pretty fierce....

I have played it, it's boring to play but very competitve.

Think outside of the box - landraiders with zerkers, 3 defilers (although maybe cheesey a bit), chaos lords on steeds, 10 Terminator units are all both competitve and wont get your opponent to /crymore (until the end of the game anyway)

Lash /oblit spam is probably the most unskillful army ever to play with... Believe me - i used it at tournaments last year...

And, if you face eldar/SM libby you are kind of screwed anyways.

Now, a slaanesh prince with WT is much more fun

Also, a cheeky slaanesh lord hidden in a regular big NM unit slowly moving accross the board can get a beefy surprise charge with his calvary special rule... and blissgives are the nuts

Try maybe a Defiler in place of one unit of Obliterators. If nothing else the Prince might be able to hide behind it.

I have been convinced to say "to hell with it" and take the sportsmanship hit.

2 DP, mos, los

7 PM, champ-pf,2 plasma guns,icon-rhino
7 NM, 6 sb, bm, icon-rhino
7 berserkers, champ-pf, icon-rhino

2 oblits
2 oblits
2 oblits

Done.

Hah! There you go.

Good choice. Comp scores shoudl be just that. Composition scores. If they say that you willl lose points if half your army is not composed of troop selections, then so be it. That effects everyone equally, and still allows everyone to try to strive for their personall best given the same restriciton. Don't bring that list cuz my tactics are crap and I must impose that on everyone else is lame.

if you undecide to go that route here is a list that always does well for me, and doesn't get too many cheese cries.

Winged Slaanesh DP with lash
Winged Tzeentch DP with warptime (a converted dred in my army to explain the extra invul save)
3x8 csm, AS with fist, MG, IoCG in naked rhino
8 zerkers AS with fist in a naked rhino
8 NM AS 7 SB AS with doom siren and pf in a naked rhino

It avoids every stereo tyope usually "dinged" by cheese nazi's except dual prince. Lash prince bringing a squad forward for a charge once or twice a game is taken much better than pulling units out of cover to get hammerd by oblits. Also, few people can fault an entire troops army, even with two DP princes.

The army does pretty well. 5 rhinos may not be considered a "rush" everywhere, but they get the troops forward first turn, after which they act as walls to screen the troops that don't make it to new combats on yoru turn. It struggles a little with all mech forces, but not so much that its really bad. Tactics are drive forward first turn, pop smoke. 2nd turn, everything gets out and charges. When there are 12" or 24" deployment zones I can usualyy get my entire army into combat by turn 2. You don't care what happens to the rhinos. A destroyed rhino puts you in dif. ground and thats about it. All the results still allow you to get out and charge the next turn. Sure once in a while you might fail the pinning test, but one squad staying behind doesnt change the overall strategy.

Another fun build is to switch out one csm squad and the noise marines for a land raider and 5 LC terms. But i actually find this build is less effective and more prone to getting shot down by armies like tau, or marines with a land speeder driving up and multi melta ing your land raider on turn one is just no fun.

Either way, good luck.

Meph