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Me and a friend compiled a few questions that we can't find the answers to.

1. According to ATSKNF Space Marines act normally after they have regrouped. Does that mean they get to make the 3" regrouping move and then move normally?

2. In "No Retreat", if you have several squads attacking a single enemy: 2 space marine combat squads charge a necron warrior squad, and the marines loose the combat and get caught by sweeping advance, does each squad take wounds equal to the amount the entire combat was lost by (this is what I think is right) or can you 'allocate' the wounds between the squads (ridiculous)?

3. Turbo-boosting bikes: do they get the 3+ cover save in CC, are there any penalties for assault turbo-boosted bikes? (I know the rulebook says no cover save in CC, but my friends insists on posting this)

4. Are Ordinance weapons automatically pinning? We have no idea where we got this one from. Maybe a rule we made up and forgot about it, but checking back in the rulebook we can't find info on it being pinning.

Hope these are clear enough, thank you for reading

UltraKruel wrote:Me and a friend compiled a few questions that we can't find the answers to.

1. According to ATSKNF Space Marines act normally after they have regrouped. Does that mean they get to make the 3" regrouping move and then move normally?

2. In "No Retreat", if you have several squads attacking a single enemy: 2 space marine combat squads charge a necron warrior squad, and the marines loose the combat and get caught by sweeping advance, does each squad take wounds equal to the amount the entire combat was lost by (this is what I think is right) or can you 'allocate' the wounds between the squads (ridiculous)?

3. Turbo-boosting bikes: do they get the 3+ cover save in CC, are there any penalties for assault turbo-boosted bikes? (I know the rulebook says no cover save in CC, but my friends insists on posting this)

4. Are Ordinance weapons automatically pinning? We have no idea where we got this one from. Maybe a rule we made up and forgot about it, but checking back in the rulebook we can't find info on it being pinning.

Hope these are clear enough, thank you for reading

1. Dunno but probably yes.
2. No sweeping advance is possible unless the Necrons wiped both marine squads. Otherwise, wounds inflicted on multiple units are totaled to determine the # of saves for "no retreat!"
3. As per the rules, cover saves are not applicable in CC.
4 Barrage weapons are pinning. Some ordinance weapons are barrage but not unless specified. Ordinance just allows you to roll two die and take the best one for armor penetration.

1. Seems that way, yes.
2. Assuming both Marine squads fail their Morale test and run, and the Necrons then catch both squads on the sweeping advance, then yes, each squad would take a number of No Retreat wounds based on how much their side lost the combat by.
3. The cover save for Turboboost is following enemy shooting phase only, and has no effect in close combat.
4. No, they're not. Only Ordnance Barrage weapons are pinning. I don't know where people keep getting this from either. It's the Barrage part that makes it pinning, not the Ordnance part.

Thx for the replies.

If we are not the only ones who thought normal Ordnance weapons are pinning something strange must be afoot... the rulebook should clearly state in massive letters the differences between Ordnance and Ordnance barrage. Although they pretty much lay waste to everything anyways .

That ordnance thing is a problem all over the place. I think it is because the ordnance and ordnance barrage rules are right next to eachother on the same page. A lot of newer players just assume they are the same thing.

1. No you don't get the 3 inch move. ATSKNF states that the usual restrictions against moving normally don't apply, so the rule restricting you to a 3" is lost, instead get you to move normally. Ignore the other answers, they're from people who didn't look up the rule before answering the question.

2. No Retreat (page 44) specifies that units take extra wounds equal to the ammount they lost by. So that applies to each unit that gets caught, so if you lose the combat by two, every unit on the losing side takes two wounds. In order to be allowed to share the damage out it would need to say 'the losing side' or something like that.

3. No, as you say, the rulebook says no cover save in CC.

4. Ordinance Barrage weapons do, but thats only a specific type of Ordinance weapon. Best to look though the whole rule on page 58 of the rulebook.

Hope it helps!

Hymirl wrote:1. No you don't get the 3 inch move. ATSKNF states that the usual restrictions against moving normally don't apply, so the rule restricting you to a 3" is lost, instead get you to move normally. Ignore the other answers, they're from people who didn't look up the rule before answering the question.

Or they're from people who disagree with your interpretation...............

When a unit rallies, it gets a 3" consolidation, at that point the restriction against further movement, etc, kicks in. So it's not until AFTER the 3" consolidation that the Marine rule allowing them to move as normal comes into play. So they get both.
So ignore the answer from Hymirl, as he may have read it but didn't apply it correctly

Seriously, just put this one down as debateable and talk it over with your opponent before the game.

We decided to not allow the 3" move (the way Hymril interprets it). That is one thing they really should have put into the FAQ.

The way the rules read, the timing allows both the 3" consolidate, and a normal move. But that really doesn't seem right. So I advise discussing it an getting rid of the consolidate.

don_mondo wrote:Or they're from people who disagree with your interpretation...............

Oh, if they're doing that it would mean they're wrong then...

When a unit rallies, it gets a 3" consolidation, at that point the restriction against further movement, etc, kicks in. So it's not until AFTER the 3" consolidation that the Marine rule allowing them to move as normal comes into play. So they get both.

Intresting that you decide to accept one restriction of regrouping but not the others...do you have any evidence for this? No, you're just randomly picking a point where theres a paragraph break. Fact is the 3" move is part of the restrictions that happens to units after regrouping and as such ATSKNF throws it in the bin along with everything else that follows from there.

Could someone put up the whole rule so that opinions aren't being flung in a vacuum?

AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR...
Space Marines automatically pass tests to regroup, and can make such tests even if the squad has been reduced to less than half strength by casualties, though all other criteria apply. Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule. If Space Marines are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally. If this happens then the unit is subject to the No Retreat! rule in this round of close combat and might therefore suffer additional casualties.

So, they regroup, get the 3" consolidation for regrouping. Then they get to ignore (per ATSKNF) the restrictions on moving normally. It's all in the sequence of events and when each occurs. Is it silly? Yes, but it's the way it is written.

don_mondo wrote:So, they regroup, get the 3" consolidation for regrouping. Then they get to ignore (per ATSKNF) the restrictions on moving normally. It's all in the sequence of events and when each occurs. Is it silly? Yes, but it's the way it is written.

Or they can sit there and shoot their heavy weapons as if they didn't move

Or they can consolidate 3" and still fire their Heavy Weapons.

The 3" is part of the regrouping test.
BRB pg. 46
"Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during the movement phase....."
ATSKNF
"Usually troops that regroup may not move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models with this special rule"

Weird as it seems Marine can regroup, moving 3" and then make their normal 6" move .
Don Mondo is correct.

I smell cheese. A 9" move after getting pummeled? And then another 6" for assault?

I bloody hate the Spase Marinez.

Excuse me, what? A marine squad regroups, gets to move normally because of their special rule AND this on top of a bonus 3"? No way. Seriously, has someone actually played this way? I have never seen or heard in the over 10+ years I have played 40K anyone use " 9 inch regroup" for marines.

Well this is only possible under the 5th Ed rules.
I'm not sure that this is what was intended, BUT by strict RAW the 9" 'regroup' is the rules.
If you check the INAT FAQ you will see that they changed the rule to make it more reasonable (and to match the past editions of the rules).
That said the 3" regroup + normal movement is the rules at this point.

A-P wrote: Excuse me, what? A marine squad regroups, gets to move normally because of their special rule AND this on top of a bonus 3"? No way. Seriously, has someone actually played this way? I have never seen or heard in the over 10+ years I have played 40K anyone use " 9 inch regroup" for marines.

We've played this way for the past 10 years here in Maryland.

Break, regroup, 3 inch move....fire heavy weapons. Or move 6 inches.

Marine's gotta have somethin....

KeithGatchalian wrote:We've played this way for the past 10 years here in Maryland.

Break, regroup, 3 inch move....fire heavy weapons. Or move 6 inches.

Marine's gotta have somethin....

Yeah, but everyone knows that GW employees (current and/or former) don't actually use the rules to play.......................

Hey, what you doing next weekend (Mar 7)? We've got the Rapid Fire tourney in Fredericksburg, I think there's still a slot or two open.

After looking at the rules carefully, I don't think an argument can be made that by the RAW marines that regroup via ATSKNF can move 9" in the movement phase.


The rules for regrouping simply say (pg46):

"If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can then immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal)."


There is nothing in this rule that says this movement is in addition to the unit's normal movement allowance or that this is a bonus move of some sort. It's just that the unit cannot usually move normally afterwards.


Now, if we flip on over to the movement phase rules you'll see (pg11):

"Infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase."


So nothing in either of these two rules or the ATSKNF rules states that the unit would get to move more than its normal 6" in the movement phase. Yes, they do get to immediately move 3" when they regroup and ignore difficult terrain during this movement, but afterwards they are still limited to a total 6" movement in that movement phase.

The only thing a marine unit 'gets' for auto-regrouping by the RAW is the ability to ignore difficult terrain for 3" of their movement that Movement phase.

Yakface's opinion is incorrect.

Regrouping says: "If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal).

"Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always count as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance."

So a regrouping unit can move 3" instead of moving normally, and counts as moving on the turn it regroups.

And They Shall Know No Fear says: "Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule."

So a regrouping unit with And They Shall Know No Fear can move 3" as well as moving normally, and does not count this 3" movement as moving for the purpose of shooting.

Therefore there are two things that a unit of Space Marines with And They Shall Know No Fear can do when it automatically regroups: it can make the 3" move, and does not count as moving if it does so.

That means the unit has two options:

1. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and may move normally (6" for Infantry, 12" for Jump Infantry), and count as moving.

2. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and not move normally, and count as not moving.

Nurglitch wrote:

1. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and may move normally (6" for Infantry, 12" for Jump Infantry), and count as moving.

2. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and not move normally, and count as not moving.

And you ignored the portion of my post that refutes what you've now posted. Units moving "normally" means that they can move up to a certain distance in the movement phase. Again, there is nothing that indicates that the 3" granted when regrouping is in addition to this total.

So this is what your points should read:

1. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and may move normally (up to a grand total of 6" for Infantry, 12" for Jump Infantry, etc), and count as moving.

2. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described and then not choose to move the rest of the distance allowed by with their normal movement.

don_mondo wrote:So, they regroup, get the 3" consolidation for regrouping. Then they get to ignore (per ATSKNF) the restrictions on moving normally. It's all in the sequence of events and when each occurs. Is it silly? Yes, but it's the way it is written.

So you claim, and yet still you show no evidence for your lies, as I previously stated you're merely picking a convient point.

Fact is, the 3" move is granted AFTER regrouping. Therefore ATSKNF ignores it....

Besides which, even if you try to falsely claim to use half of the restictions associated with regrouping you're still limited by the max distance set for the movement phase as Yakface points out.

KeithGatchalian wrote:We've played this way for the past 10 years here in Maryland.

Your house rules are irrelvent to this discussion.

don_mondo wrote:

KeithGatchalian wrote:We've played this way for the past 10 years here in Maryland.

Break, regroup, 3 inch move....fire heavy weapons. Or move 6 inches.

Marine's gotta have somethin....

Yeah, but everyone knows that GW employees (current and/or former) don't actually use the rules to play.......................

Hey, what you doing next weekend (Mar 7)? We've got the Rapid Fire tourney in Fredericksburg, I think there's still a slot or two open.

Sign me up if there's room. Is there a website or info? How many points.

Mark down April 25th...big tourney at the GB Battle Bunker.

yakface:

I ignored your entire post and merely concentrated on what the rules say.

The Regrouping rules say that a unit which regroups can:

1. Move 3"
2. Cannot move normally,
3. Counts as moving for the purposes of shooting.

And They Shall Know No Fear removes the second and third restrictions on moving normally and counting as moving for the purposes of shooting.

Therefore a unit with And They Shall Know No Fear which regroups can move 3", move normally, and only counts as moving for the purposes of shooting if it moved normally.

So, again, your opinion is incorrect.

It is incorrect because it ignores the rules stated by the text of the rules on Regrouping. The text in question states that regrouping units can move 3", and puts two restrictions on this regrouping movement.

Furthermore it ignores how the text of And They Shall Know No Fear specifically exempts referent units from those two restrictions.

In ignoring these two important pieces of text you miss the fact that the Regrouping text states that the 3" regrouping movement is in addition to normal movement. It states this by allowing one and disallowing the other.

Nurglitch, he agrees with you.

The Regrouping rules say that a unit which regroups can:

1. Move 3"
2. Cannot move normally,
3. Counts as moving for the purposes of shooting.

Agreed.

And They Shall Know No Fear removes the second and third restrictions on moving normally and counting as moving for the purposes of shooting

Agreed.

Therefore a unit with And They Shall Know No Fear which regroups can move 3", move normally, and only counts as moving for the purposes of shooting if it moved normally.

Again... Agreed.

So we all agree, the unit can "move normally"

So lets look up the rules to determine what is meant by "moves normally"
Well, the very first sentence says
"Infantry move up to six inches in the Movement Phase"

So, if you move more than 6" in the movement phase, you have not "moved normally". And you Rally, and consolidate, *during* the movement phase.

So, you can consolidate, and you can move. But the total can't be more than 6" in the phase, since that is what is 'normal'.

coredump:

Also incorrect, since Yakface opines, as do you, that the 3" regrouping movement is included in the unit's normal movement rather than in addition to that normal movement.

The 3" regroup is not normal movement.
If you notice it is uneffected by difficult terrain, like the Run rule.
The regrouping is seperate.