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Nurglitch wrote:MagickalMemories:

Actually I was attempting to engage you in a rules discussion. Why you've decided to be a dick about it I don't know. Please grow up.

Wow. I'm impressed. Plain English.
I thought, surely, you'd find a more convoluted word to call me.

As for what I was being... It was sarcastic. You seemed to miss my point.

If you want to engage me in a rules discussion, you'll need to stop "talking down" to me and trying to (unsuccessfully) intimidate me with your fancy vocabulary. All it does is make you look -to me- as if you're trying to mentally intimidate people.

Now, forgive me if you aren't actually attempting to "talk down" or intimidate me (or others) but it seems that way. that's enough for me. As long as you continue to converse in such a manner, my responses will continue in that vein.



Eric

Nurglitch wrote:Hymirl:

The funny thing is that the statement '2+2=5' is true for certain values of 2 and 5.

<snip>

Nicely done.

Nicely done indeed, as you've done it again. You took a plainly written statement and changed/assumed facts to make yourself correct. Two plus two never equals five. "Values of" 2 are not the same as 2. The number 2 is an exact number and, until you start using convoluted mathematics, that doesn't change... and then, no matter what you call it, it's still not, precisely, two.

The statement gave you no point to infer that he might be speaking of anything other than two and, therefore, is only referring to the (exact) number 2.


Eric

Nurglitch,

You spend a lot of time 'defining' things and explaining rules... that no one is debating.

Then you use that to claim your conclusion follows.

You also completely skipped my post, and thus neglected to respond to what I said.


In short...
No one is claiming that the 3" regroup move is 'normal' movement. Nor is the 2d6 fall back movement.
But moving 6" is *not* normal movement, as you have claimed several times.
The rule says "move up to 6" in the movement phase" *That* is what is 'normal'.

So the marines get to regroup 3". no problem.
Then they get to move normally. no problem
The rules clearly state that when you are moving normally, you can "move up to 6" in the movement phase".
So that is what you can do... since you have already moved 3"... if you now move 4", you have moved more than 6", and thus are not following the rules for moving normally.


If, somehow, you were able to move normally, and then regroup, you could move 9". but since that is not the case....

coredump:


I apologize for not directly addressing your post, but I have difficulty following the way you document your thoughts, and had hoped that arguing the point rather than with you directly would be more constructive.

Now, I have to disagree with you on a number of items, not the least of which is what I've done in this thread. You say that I've spent time defining and explaining things. You're certainly right about the explanation, since I've taken pains to explain the definitions stated by the text, and to explain how, given the text as premises, anyone can reach the same conclusion that I have. That is why you are wrong to say that I've spent time defining things, as I have been explaining how the rules define things.

Given that I have taken the time to quote the relevant texts, explain how they define matters, and explain how my conclusions follow from those definitions, using that information to claim that conclusion follows is what I should do. Indeed, in doing so I was able to spot a mistake that I had made so I could change my opinion to accord with the truth.

As I believe that I have noted, 'normal movement' ('move normally', etc) is defined by the And They Shall Know No Fear and Regrouping rules.

Where the latter says: "Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase," the former says: "Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally".

Therefore, to move normally is to move during the Movement phase otherwise than regrouping.

Since to move normally is to move during the Movement phase otherwise than regrouping, and regrouping involves the option of moving up to 3" disregarding difficult terrain, unlike moving normally, and that the restriction in the Regrouping rules is that a unit is prevented from moving normally after it has regrouped, I would say that the conclusion of your argument is false.

I would suggest that if you wish this discussion to continue constructively, then you should quote what you believe to be the relevant rules, show how your paraphrases are accurate, and then build your counter-argument from there. It seems to me that you're not being careful enough with the details and that lack of precision is leading you to the wrong conclusions.

Nurglitch wrote:As I believe that I have noted, 'normal movement' ('move normally', etc) is defined by the And They Shall Know No Fear and Regrouping rules.

Where the latter says: "Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase," the former says: "Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally".

Therefore, to move normally is to move during the Movement phase otherwise than regrouping.

Since to move normally is to move during the Movement phase otherwise than regrouping, and regrouping involves the option of moving up to 3" disregarding difficult terrain, unlike moving normally, and that the restriction in the Regrouping rules is that a unit is prevented from moving normally after it has regrouped, I would say that the conclusion of your argument is false.

The only problem with your arguement is that while you can define moving normally, you still don't have anything to show that the 6" limit applies only to 'normal movement'. I'm going to repeat that the only movement types that are given permission to exceed the 6" limit are Random and Compuslory movement, neither of which cover this situation.

ALL movement in the movement phase is bound by the limit of up to 6" total for infantry unless its 'random or comulsory.' Being 'normal' movement is not a requirement mentioned anywhere on page 11.

Okay, I think I will add in a bit here:

Something I don't get about (Hymirl's last post for example) is the "Max 6"? for a movement phase.

So if a unit of marines moves 6" into dangerous terrain, kills off several guys, and fails the LD test, they can't fall back AT ALL because they've moved 6"?

And don't say "Fall back moves are different than normal moves" if they are, what makes a regrouping move any different? The way I see it, a regroup move is like a fallback move, wherein it's not normal movement, and not restricted to 6 inches.

EDIT: Again responding to the post above: where does it say that only "random and compulsory" movements are allowed to pass the 6" limit?

---

THAT SAID, I think it doesn't make sense to move marines 9" max after regrouping, and I personally think that the way it's written implies that you move normally INSTEAD of the regroup move, as in 6", no 3" AT ALL.

---

Eight Ball wrote:Okay, I think I will add in a bit here:

Something I don't get about (Hymirl's last post for example) is the "Max 6"? for a movement phase.

So if a unit of marines moves 6" into dangerous terrain, kills off several guys, and fails the LD test, they can't fall back AT ALL because they've moved 6"?

And don't say "Fall back moves are different than normal moves" if they are, what makes a regrouping move any different? The way I see it, a regroup move is like a fallback move, wherein it's not normal movement, and not restricted to 6 inches.

EDIT: Again responding to the post above: where does it say that only "random and compulsory" movements are allowed to pass the 6" limit?

---

THAT SAID, I think it doesn't make sense to move marines 9" max after regrouping, and I personally think that the way it's written implies that you move normally INSTEAD of the regroup move, as in 6", no 3" AT ALL.

---

One big difference is that a Fall Back move is called a "fall back move", so it is unequivocally a different kind of movement.

When a unit regroups it may move 3". Yes, this movement ignores difficult terrain, but it doesn't ever say it is a different type of movement. It is never called a "regrouping move" and if you recall they've even changed it from the previous edition where it was 3" worth of "consolidation".

But they did indeed change it. It is not a 'regroup move' it is not 'consolidation', the unit just is allowed to move 3" and this movement ignores difficult terrain.

holden88 wrote:So lets say a Monolith deepstikes on top of (read: underneath) a friendly unit of Necron Warriors. This, of course, occurs during the Necron movement phase. The Monolith has special rules which displace models and terrain that it lands on when it deep strikes. So, if the Necrons Warriors are moved lets say 4" aside to make room for the monolith. Now its time for the Necron Warriors to move. Since they already moved 4" they may only continue to move an additional 2" (for a total of no more than 6" in the movement phase)?

Monoliths only displace ENEMY units. If they deep strike on top of friendly models they still incur a Deep Strike mishap.

coredump wrote:No one is claiming that the 3" regroup move is 'normal' movement. Nor is the 2d6 fall back movement.
But moving 6" is *not* normal movement, as you have claimed several times.
The rule says "move up to 6" in the movement phase" *That* is what is 'normal'.

So the marines get to regroup 3". no problem.
Then they get to move normally. no problem
The rules clearly state that when you are moving normally, you can "move up to 6" in the movement phase".
So that is what you can do... since you have already moved 3"... if you now move 4", you have moved more than 6", and thus are not following the rules for moving normally.


If, somehow, you were able to move normally, and then regroup, you could move 9". but since that is not the case....

Good points, and you also answered my possible flaw in the debate.
I'm going with your answer.
Well argued.

Nurglitch & Don
I have been playing it as you have described but that was because of how it was worded in 4th and had not checked the specifics for 5th. I'm actually a little disappointed that I have been playing it incorrectly. It's a pretty significant advantage.

Unfortunately you are only allowed to move 6" MAX during the movement phase if you are classed as Infantry.
P.11
Infantry move UP TO 6" in the Movement Phase.

P.46
A unit falling back can attempt to regroupd by taking a regroup test in the Movement Phase.

P.46
The unit can immediately move up to 3".

It's pretty clear that since the test is happening during the movemnt phase and the 3" is happening during that phase that the 3" is considered PART of your full move.

It used to be that Regrouping happened "At the Start of the Turn". Logically since "The Start of the Turn" is ambiguous and was technically not the Movement Phase that was where the additional 3" movement came in. 4th addition marines regrouping were able to "rally" up to 9" and I thought with 5th a potential 15" if they "ran" 6".

To take this conversation to another level...
Marines Rally
They Rally while in difficult terrain
How far do they move?

2d6?
3"+ difference of 2d6?
6"?

On a note I have always played that if you consolidate/regroup 3" that is considered a move during your turn and are there for unable to fire Heavy Weapons.

Moderation on:
Gentlemen,

Cease and desist the personal attacks or disciplinary action will be taken. Private messages are going out to responsible parties concerning this as well.

paidinfull:

The Movement Distance rules describe the normal case for Infantry moving in the Movement phase. That's established by the rules for Regrouping and And They Shall Know No Fear.

Where the Regrouping rules say: "Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase," the And They Shall Know No Fear rules say: "Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally...but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule."

Hence to move during that Movement phase otherwise than regrouping is to move normally.

Now, onto which parts of Regrouping that And They Shall Know No Fear exempts Space Marine units:

What does it mean that once a unit with And They Shall Know No Fear has regrouped that it can otherwise move during that Movement phase? It does not mean that it can move further, it means that it move "under other circumstances", or "in another manner; differently", or "in other respects" (Dictionary.com, 2009).

A quick explanation of jargon: There's a basic distinction in logic between difference in kind (apples and oranges) and differences in degree (1 apple and 2 apples).

It seems that while some people are arguing that regrouping and moving normally differ only in degree such that the distance moved while regrouping counts against the total distance a unit can normally move during the Movement phase, others are arguing that regrouping and moving normally differ in kind, in manner and respect, such that the difference moved while regrouping does not count against the total distance a unit can normally move during the Movement phase.

We have many pieces of evidence that point to the only valid conclusion being that the 3" allowance permitted by regrouping is different in kind from the 6" allowance permitted by moving normally in the Movement phase.

The Regrouping rules themselves, describing what regrouping involves. Passing a Regroup test means that a unit stops falling back and regroups. A unit that regroups has the option of moving up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain, an option described as "this move", and it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, and always counts as moving.

So a unit that regroups:

1. Can move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain
2. Cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase
3. Always counts as moving.

And They Shall Know No Fear exempts Space Marine units from the last two restrictions. As I've explained, such exemption means:

A Space Marine unit that regroups:

1. Can move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain
2. Can otherwise move during that Movement phase
3. Does not always count as moving, and hence counts as moving when moving and not moving when not moving.

The point of contention being that a Space Marine unit that regroups can move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain and can otherwise move during that Movement phase. As I noted above, we can accurately paraphrase this to be say: A Space Marine unit that regroups can move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain and can in other respects move during that Movement phase.

What other respects are there to move in during the Movement phase? There is the respect in which a unit of Space Marine Infantry can move normally, up to 6" or 2D6P^1 in case of difficult terrain, and once the unit has regrouped (has stopped falling back, has finished the option of moving 3" ignoring difficult terrain, etc).

That's EXACTLY how I have been playing it... however, That 3" move happens in the movement phase. By adding another 6" you would be breaking a immutable rule on P. 11 which says that (infantry can only move up to 6".)

The restrictions that are removed by ATSKNF are:
Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot(though it counts as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance.

So other armies are limited to that 3" but the marines CAN move during that movement phase, however this move has to be within the restrictions placed on p.11.

The 3" movement that all armies are allowed WAS a consolidation previously but it is no longer a special or different move. It used to be, but now it is just a move up to 3" ignoring terrain.

Unfortunately because "normal movement" for ATSKNF is up to 6" if you moved 3" after regrouping you are only allowed another 3" for the move to be considered "normal"

This is something that changed in 5th and until this post I was CERTAIN they got 9" but reviewing pages 11 & 46 it's clear that I was mistaken.

Another way to look at it is:
Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase,

Once a unit has moved up to 3" from regrouping, it cannot other wise, if classed as Infantry, move up to a total of 6" during that Movement phase

Sorry man, I was with you when I first started reading this post but after re-reading the BRB and C:SM for myself I was disappointed to see that it was not a consolidation move anymore and is in fact just a move during the movement phase.

paidinfull:

This isn't a competition, so you should not apologize for changing your mind as you see fit. That said, you've changed your mind for the worse.

For one thing, you've decided that the rules for Movement Distance puts an absolute limit of 6" on Infantry when no such limit exists, the evidence for which is on the same page. Random and Compulsory Movement says: "Sometimes, a unit may have to move a random distance instead of the usual 6"" The 6" limit is for normal movement, not for Fall Back! moves, which also occur in the Movement phase.

For another thing, regrouping is the up to 3" move. It's not that it used to be a special consolidation move and now it's normal movement that ignores difficult terrain, has a limit of 3", and counts as moving whether the unit does so or not. It's that it used to be labeled a consolidation move and now it's simply regrouping.

Essentially, it appears that you're missing (glossing over, ignoring, there's really no way to say this that sounds nice and respectful yet gets the point across that you've missed something) how And They Shall Know No Fear interacts with Regrouping. I've gone over it several times.

The fact is that And They Shall Know No Fear means that a unit of Space Marines can move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain and can otherwise move during that Movement phase.

Let me put it this way, writing And They Shall Know No Fear into the Regrouping rules:

'Once a unit has regrouped (that's passed a Regroup test, stopped falling back, and moved up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain), it can otherwise move during that Movement phase and otherwise it behaves as normal.'

The keywords are 'once' and 'otherwise'. 'Otherwise', as I've pointed out by reference to dictionary.com means "under other circumstances", or "in another manner; differently", or "in other respects". 'Once' indicates sequence, as in after one action is completed, another action may be resolved differently.And what respects are those? To quote the rules, to "move normally".

After a Space Marine unit has regrouped, it can otherwise move and behave as normal. That means moving it has the option of moving up to 6" and counting as moving for the purposes of shooting, or not moving and counting as stationary for the purposes of shooting.

sorry man, but I do see a limit in the BRB

p.11
Infantry can move up to 6" in the Movement Phase.

That I feel is pretty strong qualifier for exactly how far a model classified as Infantry can move. I'm not sure why you don't see/interpret this as MAX 6", but I do know the intent is that no Infantry model of it's voalition can move more than 6" in the movement phase. Run happens in the Shooting Phase, and Random or Compulsory are not voluntary movement (IE Falling Back, Rage)

Regrouping is not covered in "Random or Compulsory movement" as it's not... random or compulsory. It's just movement, hence the "may move up to 3"

No worries, I didn't take it personally. I do want it to work the way you described but after rereading those areas I realized I had been playing it wrong. Also as a note, because I didn't post a quote it didn't mean I glossed over it. I just felt it was not pertainent to our discussion.

On a random note I did play it this way up until LAST NIGHT

paidinfull:

I'm curious. Could you explain why the wording of Regrouping means that it falls under the 6" limit described by Movement Distances?

p.46
A unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move.

Huh... this is something...
Honestly, this makes me feel like I've been playing it correctly. It clearly conveys this test happens before the unit moves.

Yeah, I've mentioned that several times now.

There was a lot to go over before I got involved I must have missed where you mentioned that.

I'm back on the side of 9"

paidinfull wrote:

p.46
A unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move.

Huh... this is something...
Honestly, this makes me feel like I've been playing it correctly. It clearly conveys this test happens before the unit moves.

That's probably because it would dictate how the non-SM unit is able to move that turn. Without a test, the unit would have fallen back again as their move. If they fail the test, they fall back. If they succeed, they Regroup as per the rules.

Yes, and after a unit of Space Marines has regrouped, i.e. passed the Regroup test and moved up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain, they can then move normally up to 6".

Im guessing that the intent wasn't for Space Marines to be able to move 9" in the turn they regroup, but given the way the rules are worded they seem to be able to.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm curious. Could you explain why the wording of Regrouping means that it falls under the 6" limit described by Movement Distances?

I can explain it for you. Its because the movement granted by regrouping happens in the movement phase. And movement that occours in the movement phase at a maxium limit set upon it. This limit applies because there is no exception granted from that limit to any movement that isn't "random or comulsory."

So, can you explain why that limit doesn't include the regroup move?

All your explainations about what is and isn't normal movement don't answer that point, since the limitation isn't specific to so called 'normal' movement, it applies to ALL movement that isn't Random and Complusory that occours during the movement phase.

It is only a limit as long as a specific rule doesn't change it. Like Bikes, Fallback and..........Regrouping.

Steelmage99 wrote:It is only a limit as long as a specific rule doesn't change it. Like Bikes, Fallback and..........Regrouping.

The specific rule where bikes changes that is page 53, the specific rule where falling back changes it is on page 11 (its a type of random and compuslory mvoement that I mentioned).

So where is the rule that allows movement from regrouping to allow you to move more than 6"? As soon as this rule is shown to me I will fully agree that the marines can move a total of 9" when they regroup.

That has been explained several times already. Page 46 in the rulebook and page 51 in Codex Space Marines in conjunction.

Has anyone emailed Spencer?

Steelmage99 wrote:That has been explained several times already. Page 46 in the rulebook and page 51 in Codex Space Marines in conjunction.

In that case why didn't you just quote the relevent part that specificly gives permission to move more than 6" total in the movement phase, the rule that you just told me exists? All thats been (repeatedly) shown is that movement from regrouping isn't 'normal' movement, but as I previously pointed out (and you agreed) that you still need a specific rule to allow you to break the 6" max per movement phase, a specific rule like the one given for bikes, or falling back for example.

It seems odd that no-one who believes that the 9" total is legal can actually give me a straight answer.

Hymril
It clearly states that the 3" move occurs before the unit moves, as I posted.

p.11 says a unit can move up to 6" in the movement phase

If marines could only move 6" on the turn they regroup there are some large logic issues

Do they move 3"(full) and then the difference of 6"?
What if they are in difficult terrain? How does that work? 3" + (2d6-3)?

That is way more complicated and clearly GW is making 5th edition easier to play to help younger players get involved.

The C:SM specifically states they ignore the normal restraints on movement placed by regrouping, and can MOVE AS NORMAL. Which is definitely 6". 3" special move + 6" normal move = 9" total move.

Nothing states that the 3" is considered normal movement, in fact it is clearly a special move which ignores terrain and happens before the unit moves.

Nor does it state that simply because it happens in the movement phase that it is coinsidered a part of the 6" normal move.

It sure as heck worked like that in 4th edition. Can you tell me where this changed in 5th?

Marines can definitely rally 9"