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the regroup is done before movement. i would think you get the 3 when you regroup and then your normal move.

usernamesareannoying wrote:the regroup is done before movement. i would think you get the 3 when you regroup and then your normal move.

There is nothing "before" movement. Each player turn starts with the Movement phase. (See p. 9.)
And we know that "Infantry move up to 6 inches in the Movement phase" (p. 11).

If you regroup for 3" and then move for 6", your infantry have now moved 9" in the Movement phase.

Nurglitch wrote:coredump:

Also incorrect, since Yakface opines, as do you, that the 3" regrouping movement is included in the unit's normal movement rather than in addition to that normal movement.

There is no such thing as "regrouping movement", and that is where your argument fails. A unit which regroups gets to immediately move up to 3" and this move ignores difficult terrain, but this is not ever quantified as being additional movement to what is allowed normally.

Yes, units with ATSKNF do also get to move normally, but that just means that they can finish moving up to their NORMAL 6" total.

Nurglitch wrote:In ignoring these two important pieces of text you miss the fact that the Regrouping text states that the 3" regrouping movement is in addition to normal movement. It states this by allowing one and disallowing the other.

Had you tried concentrating on what the rules say you might have had a look at page 11 of the rulebook. It clearly states "move up to 6 inches in the movement phase."

You do not get given a set move, there is merely a limit on the maxium displacement possible during the movement phase of the turn, if you want to move 3" when you regroup in the movment phase by all means but if you move more than 6" in that movement phase you have broken that rule which isn't allowed.

Hymirl wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:In ignoring these two important pieces of text you miss the fact that the Regrouping text states that the 3" regrouping movement is in addition to normal movement. It states this by allowing one and disallowing the other.

Had you tried concentrating on what the rules say you might have had a look at page 11 of the rulebook. It clearly states "move up to 6 inches in the movement phase."

You do not get given a set move, there is merely a limit on the maxium displacement possible during the movement phase of the turn, if you want to move 3" when you regroup in the movment phase by all means but if you move more than 6" in that movement phase you have broken that rule which isn't allowed.

The man has a point there.

Nurglitch wrote:coredump:

Also incorrect, since Yakface opines, as do you, that the 3" regrouping movement is included in the unit's normal movement rather than in addition to that normal movement.

Sure, and as soon as you produce a rule stating that the consolidation 3" is "in addition to that normal movement" then you may have a case. But since that rule doesn't exist....

The rule on p11 doesn't say "a normal move is up to 6" ", it says it can move up to 6" in the *movement phase*. By your method, you are moving more than that....

Ok then if my unit of 4 models has moved into dangerous terrain and one is killed.
I fail my morale test are you saying that I cannot fall back because I've used all my 6" of movement in the phase?
The ATSKNF states that there are no restrictions to normal movement, the regroup is not normal movement any more than the fall back movement.

SeattleDV8 wrote:Ok then if my unit of 4 models has moved into dangerous terrain and one is killed.
I fail my morale test are you saying that I cannot fall back because I've used all my 6" of movement in the phase?
The ATSKNF states that there are no restrictions to normal movement, the regroup is not normal movement any more than the fall back movement.

Because the Fallback rules specifically say that they "make further fall back moves instead of moving normally".

In other words, the rules specifically allow a falling back unit to move more than its normal allowance.

NOTHING in the rules for regrouping or in the ATSKNF states that the 3" they get to move when they regroup is done instead or in addition to moving normally and therefore it is not.

Actually "In each subsequent Movement phase, they will make further fall back move instead..."
So you still have not dealt with the movement phase in which the test was failed.

It is a timing issue.

Moving normally means up to 6" in the movement phase. So when you can move normally, that is what you can do.

Please note, this is an *important* distinction from "Moving normally means moving up to 6" "

Now, other rules still exist; which are not normal movement, which may allow you to move farther. But it depends on timing.

Regroup: Move the 3". This is not normal movement
Normal movement" Move up to 6" **in the movement phase**
Fall back: Move 2d6, this is not normal movement.

From here, it is timing.
You regroup, so you can move 3", you decide to move 2"
Now you can Move Normally, which means up to 6" in the movement phase. So, to follow this rule, you can't move more than 6" in the phase; since you have already gone 2", you can only go another 4"
Fall back: this is not normal movement, and is thus not restricted to 6", so you can keep moving.

Hypothetical: A unit is developed that says you move normally *before* checking for rally.
Now you Move Normally, which means you can move 6" in the phase.
Then you regroup, which allows for 3"

That way you get 9"

Hymirl:

That's an interesting suggestion. The problem is that the limit on distance expressed on p.11 is only relevant to moving normally. There's more to regrouping movement than distance, as I will now relate to yakface.

yakface:

Regrouping says that: "If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal)."

Therefore, when a unit regroups, it can engage in a move to regroup. Unlike normal movement this regrouping movement ignores difficult terrain. Once a unit has regrouped, i.e. passed its regrouping test and either made a regroup move or not, then it can move normally, subject to difficult terrain tests and all the rest.

Regrouping movement is not moving normally because regrouping movement is not subject to difficult terrain, whereas normal movement is subject to difficult terrain.

Not only is this stated in the rules, it is stated unequivocally when the Regrouping rules say:

"If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal)."

This sentence describes a "move". What move? "this move". To what does "this" refer to? It refers to the 3" of movement unaffected by difficult terrain that a unit can make under the condition of passing a regrouping test.

So where do the rules state that this regrouping movement can be done in addition to normal movement? The rules state that this regrouping movement can be done in addition to normal movement where the regrouping rules say:

"Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always count as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance."

Thanks to the previous sentence/paragraph, we know being regrouped involves: It involves having passed a regrouping test and possibly having engaged in regrouping movement.

According to the most recently quoted sentence/paragraph, having engaged in regrouping movement normally prevents a unit from otherwise moving during that Movement phase. In other words, regrouping movement is the only movement normally permissible for a unit that has regrouped. It cannot engage in other movements, such as the normal movement described on p.11.

And They Shall Know No Fear says: "Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule."

So, we know that units that regroup:

1. Can make a 3" move ignoring difficult terrain
2. Cannot move normally
3. Always count as moving whether they do so (make the 3" regroup move) or not.

And They Shall Know No Fear states that restrictions 2 & 3 do not apply.

So units with And They Shall Know No Fear that are regrouping:

1. Can make a 3" move ignoring difficult terrain
2. Can move normally
3. Do not always count as moving whether they do so (make the 3" regroup move) or not.

Since we know that the regrouping movement is separated and in addition to the normal movement, by dint of their separation on the matter of difficult terrain, we know that a regrouping unit of Space Marines can:

1. Move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain and not count as moving for the purposes of shooting.

2. Move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain, and thereafter move up to 6" factoring in difficult terrain, and has moved for the purposes of shooting.

Of interest also, note that if an SM unit chooses to do that 3" consolidation movement, then they have moved for purposes of any Heavy weapons. In other words, ATSKNF allows heavy weapons to fire even though the unit just regrouped; it does not remove the restrictions preventing heavy weapons from firing if the unit moved in the movement phase, and that 3" consolidation move is a move during the movement phase. Therefore, the blanket prohibition on shooting heavy weapons would kick in (unless the unit is relentless or otherwise exempt from the prohibition) and the unit cannot fire heavy weapons.

Antonin:

Good point. Incidentally I just spent five minutes trying to explain why your opinion was incorrect, but discovered that your opinion on heavy weapons was actually correct. Yay for proof by reductio ad absurdem (assume the negation and derive a contradiction)!

The tricky part, I think, is that And They Shall Know No Fear negates the part of the Regrouping rules that make a unit always count as moving for the purposes of shooting. It might seem that the negation of such a restriction would, at first glance, be that they never count as moving for the purposes of shooting. That first glance opinion would be false.

Since the negation of categorical statements are hypothetical statements, that means that the negation of the restriction in question resets the interaction of moving and shooting back to its "normal" state.

In the following quote, my mistake was mis-attributing the negation to the wrong scope (the object rather than its quantifier).

Nurglitch wrote:So a regrouping unit with And They Shall Know No Fear can move 3" as well as moving normally, and does not count this 3" movement as moving for the purpose of shooting.

Therefore there are two things that a unit of Space Marines with And They Shall Know No Fear can do when it automatically regroups: it can make the 3" move, and does not count as moving if it does so.

That means the unit has two options:

1. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and may move normally (6" for Infantry, 12" for Jump Infantry), and count as moving.

2. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and not move normally, and count as not moving.

To correct the statement (corrections in bold):

So a regrouping unit with And They Shall Know No Fear can move 3" as well as moving normally, and does not count this 3" movement as moving normally, but does count it as moving for the purpose of shooting.

Therefore there are three things that a unit of Space Marines with And They Shall Know No Fear can do when it automatically regroups: it can make the regrouping move, the normal move, and counts as moving if it does either.

That means the unit has three options:

1. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and may move normally (6" for Infantry, 12" for Jump Infantry), and count as moving.

2. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and not move normally, and count as moving.

3. The unit can immediately not move at all, and not count as moving.

Nurglitch wrote:Antonin:

Good point. Incidentally I just spent five minutes trying to explain why your opinion was incorrect, but discovered that your opinion on heavy weapons was actually correct. Yay for proof by reductio ad absurdem (assume the negation and derive a contradiction)!

The tricky part, I think, is that And They Shall Know No Fear negates the part of the Regrouping rules that make a unit always count as moving for the purposes of shooting. It might seem that the negation of such a restriction would, at first glance, be that they never count as moving for the purposes of shooting. That first glance opinion would be false.

Since the negation of categorical statements are hypothetical statements, that means that the negation of the restriction in question resets the interaction of moving and shooting back to its "normal" state.

What? Please explain what series of logic allows you to read ATSKNF as saying the 3" consolidation move disallows heavy weapons fire. Please do so without the the highbrow doublespeak, and jargon. Or if you HAVE to use it to prove your point, at least explain the process.

Nurglitch: thank you.

Lordhat:
1. The 3" consolidation move occurs in the movement phase (as described by Yakface, Janthkin, and now by Nurglitch also)
2. Heavy weapons may not fire (except where relentless) if the unit has moved in the movement phase.
3. Conclusion: if the unit moves the 3" consolidation, it may not fire heavy weapons.

Lordhat:

I'm not reading And They Shall Know No Fear as saying that the regrouping move disallows heavy weapons fire.

I'm pointing out that And They Shall Know No Fear negates the part of the Regrouping rules that make a unit always count as moving for the purposes of shooting.

You see, as I've explained several times already, the Regrouping rules allow a unit to make a regrouping move, but a regrouping unit counts as moving whether or not that regrouping move happens.

The part of the rules where it says they always count as moving whether or not they make the regrouping move is a categorical statement, an 'all' proposition.

Now, because And They Shall Know No Fear exempts a unit from the part of the Regrouping rule that makes it always counting as moving when it regroups, it negates the 'all' part of that rule, and not the 'counts as moving' part. 'Negation' is a fancy way of saying 'not', so the negation of 'Snow is white' would be 'Snow is not white'. Likewise the negation of 'All snow is white' would be 'Not all snow is white.'

This is important because 'not all', the negation of a categorical statement is logically equivalent to the hypothetical quantifier 'some' in classical logic (not to be confused with classical antiquity's syllogistic logic...). For example, the logical equivalent (also known as 'logical equality', meaning statements that are logically equal mean the same thing) of 'Not all snow is white' is 'Some snow is white'.

The normal rules for moving and shooting are a set of hypothetical statements, because they set a condition for some hypothetical condition, rather than making a blanket or categorical statement. Units normally count as moving when they move, and they don't count as moving when they don't move.

In other words, if a unit with And They Shall Know No Fear moves, then it counts as moving for the purpose of shooting, and if that unit does not move, it does not count as moving for the purpose of shooting.

The unit does so because And They Shall Know No Fear exempts the unit from the part of the Regrouping rules that always, i.e. categorically, makes them count as moving if they regroup.

Did that help any?

So, we know that units that regroup:

1. Can make a 3" move ignoring difficult terrain
2. Cannot move normally
3. Always count as moving whether they do so (make the 3" regroup move) or not.

And They Shall Know No Fear states that restrictions 2 & 3 do not apply.

Number 1 above IS the unit's movement for the turn. It is a restricted movement

ATSKNF eliminates the restrictions.

This means that (1) they do not make the restricted movement of 3". They get their regular movement.

This means that (2) they CAN move normally.

This means that (3) they only count as moving if they actually moved.

So, they do not get the 9" of movement and they DO count as moving if they take the 3" move (as that is regular movement rules).

This takes all factors into account and does not break any current rules since, as we all know, you cannot break any rule unless another rule specifically tells you that you can.

If you disagree with my reasoning on it, please show me where it fails.

Eric

MagickalMemories:

Your first statement is false. The regrouping movement is not a restriction on the unit that is regrouping. It is what the unit is permitted to do.

Your second statement is true, but incomplete. And They Shall Know No Fear exempts regrouping units of Space Marines specifically from the restriction on moving normally, and the restriction of always counting as moving.

Thus your third statement is false, because And They Shall Know No Fear does not prevent a regrouping unit from making its regrouping move.

Your fourth statement is correct.

Your fifth statement is also correct.

Your sixth statement is true, because while you have failed to note the relation of regrouping movement to normal movement, you have successfully reiterated your fifth statement, and such statements containing one true disjunct and one false disjunct are always true in classical logic.

So essentially you have failed to do as you claim and take all factors into account. As in all failures of accounting, it is a failure of omission and carelessness (no slight against you, it's just where your reasoning fails, as you requested).

I recommend that in your next post, you start by posting the relevant passages from the book, and then very carefully paraphrasing them and exploring how they interact, making sure to log your thoughts in detail and not gloss over anything in the interest of brevity. A stitch in time saves nine, and all that.

Nurglitch wrote:Regrouping movement is not moving normally because regrouping movement is not subject to difficult terrain, whereas normal movement is subject to difficult terrain.

Not only is this stated in the rules, it is stated unequivocally when the Regrouping rules say:

"If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal)."

I remain unconvinced by your opinion that an exclusion to difficult terrain equals an exclusion to the movement limitation.

Secondly I fail to see any point to this line of argument, the limitation to a total of 6" that I identified has absolutly no restictions to 'normal' movement or otherwise, its pure an simple a limit on how far you can voluntarly move in the movement phase, the one and only exception to that is the Random and Compulsory movement which isn't applicable as the consolidate is neither random, nor compulsory.
Since a unit that regroups isn't covered by that exception you are limited by the normal rules, that means less than six, as well as any movement prevent firing of heavy weapons.

Lastly of course, the marines that regroup are specificly instructed to follow the rules for normal movement, ATSKNF allows them to ignore the prevention against doing so that regrouping normally enforces. Ergo, they will now move normally.. thus being limited to the normal movement for the unit type.

The remainder of your post I won't be dealing with since its built on the premise you build here. The premise which does not stand up to close inspection.

Hymirl:

Actually it does stand up to close inspection, which you haven't given it.

Let's start from the beginning again, and see if this can be made clear enough for you.

The Regrouping rules say:

"If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3" (this move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal)."

So, if the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, then it stops falling back and regroups. The next sentence tells us what it is to stop falling back and regroup, which is the option of a 3" move unaffected by difficult terrain.

The next sentence/paragraph goes on to say:

"Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always count as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance."

So, after a unit has taken or discarded the option of regrouping movement, once it has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase. In other words, it cannot make an additional move during that Movement phase.

Hence the point of this line of argument, the point that it proves, is that the 3" regrouping move is separate from, and in addition to, any movement it could otherwise make during that Movement phase.

And They Shall Know No Fear confirms this by saying:

"Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule."

This sentence states that there are two restrictions in the normal regrouping rules that model with And They Shall Know No Fear are exempt from. I've already explained how they are properly exempt from the normal grouping requirement that units always count as moving whether they take the regrouping move or not. The other restriction is that regrouping troops cannot move normally. If Space Marines are exempt from the restriction that regrouping troops cannot otherwise move normally, then they can otherwise move normally.

What is it to move normally? The rules for Movement Distance on p.11 tells us that Infantry move up to six inches in the Movement phase. That is, unless they Fall Back! In which case in each subsequent Movement phase after failing a Morale test they will make 2D6" fall back moves instead of moving normally.

So the rules for Movement Distance tell us how far a unit can normally move in the Movement phase, and the rules for Fall Back! tells us how far a unit can move in the Movement phase when making fall back moves.

It follows that after a Space Marine unit has taken or discarded the option of regrouping movement, once it has regrouped, it can otherwise move during that Movement phase. In other words, it can make an additional move during that Movement phase.

So, the fact that you remain unconvinced by the argument I've put forth to the effect that regrouping movement is not included in the normal movement distance allowed not a problem with the argument, but with you. Likewise your failure to see how the argument is not that regrouping movement ignores difficult terrain and a normal movement does not, is your own.

It appears that you have misunderstood how And They Shall Know No Fear interacts with the Regrouping rules. The Marines are exempted from the rules preventing normal movement after they have regrouped, and regrouping involves the option of regrouping movement. The element of sequence is just as important as the fact that regrouping movement ignores difficult terrain.

I believe you got distracted by the difference in the way that regrouping movement treats difficult terrain from normal movement, and, believing that to be the sole premise of my argument, completely missed out on the additional premise that the Regrouping rules state a sequence.

It is no wonder then, that missing part of the premises of an argument, you believed that my conclusion was invalid. After all, if there was no sequence which differentiated the regrouping move from any other move during that Movement phase, such that once a unit of Space Marines has regrouped it can otherwise move during that Movement phase, your conclusion that the regrouping movement is included in the normal movement would be the only valid one since without a statement of sequence they would be simultaneous and therefore inclusive.

Nurglitch wrote:

To correct the statement (corrections in bold):

So a regrouping unit with And They Shall Know No Fear can move 3" as well as moving normally, and does not count this 3" movement as moving normally, but does count it as moving for the purpose of shooting.

Therefore there are three things that a unit of Space Marines with And They Shall Know No Fear can do when it automatically regroups: it can make the regrouping move, the normal move, and counts as moving if it does either.

That means the unit has three options:

1. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and may move normally (6" for Infantry, 12" for Jump Infantry), and count as moving.

2. The unit can immediately move up to 3" as described, and not move normally, and count as moving.

3. The unit can immediately not move at all, and not count as moving.

I see what you're getting at, but at the same time, you're almost double-defining the 3" move. It's either Movement or it's Regrouping. If - as you've just stated above - it's Movement, then it would go to say that it would have to be included in your total distance during the entire phase. If it's deemed as Regrouping, then it would be a 'free' 3" displacement that could be thought of as the unit getting its bearings after a 'tactical retreat'.

That being said, I play Marines, and would LOVE a 'free' 3" displacement, but this whole mess seems convoluted in general. I do like the neatness of your interpretation, and will probably see about playing it that way, but for the sake of argument: You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Nurglitch wrote:MagickalMemories:

Your first statement is false. The regrouping movement is not a restriction on the unit that is regrouping. It is what the unit is permitted to do.

Your second statement is true, but incomplete. And They Shall Know No Fear exempts regrouping units of Space Marines specifically from the restriction on moving normally, and the restriction of always counting as moving.

Thus your third statement is false, because And They Shall Know No Fear does not prevent a regrouping unit from making its regrouping move.

Your fourth statement is correct.

Your fifth statement is also correct.

Your sixth statement is true, because while you have failed to note the relation of regrouping movement to normal movement, you have successfully reiterated your fifth statement, and such statements containing one true disjunct and one false disjunct are always true in classical logic.

So essentially you have failed to do as you claim and take all factors into account. As in all failures of accounting, it is a failure of omission and carelessness (no slight against you, it's just where your reasoning fails, as you requested).

I recommend that in your next post, you start by posting the relevant passages from the book, and then very carefully paraphrasing them and exploring how they interact, making sure to log your thoughts in detail and not gloss over anything in the interest of brevity. A stitch in time saves nine, and all that.

Tee hee hee

Nurgly... you so silly...

I totally thought you were attempting to engage me in a rules discussion.

Then, as I started reading, I realized it was just another attempt at using big ol' words and silly talk to show how intelligent you be.

I'll hold my responses on the subject for someone who understands that he can get his point across better when speaking in everyday terms, rather than wording reserved for uber-geeks and textbooks.

Eric

MagickalMemories:

Actually I was attempting to engage you in a rules discussion. Why you've decided to be a dick about it I don't know. Please grow up.

KaloranSLC:

The whole point of cake is eating it.

So lets say a Monolith deepstikes on top of (read: underneath) a friendly unit of Necron Warriors. This, of course, occurs during the Necron movement phase. The Monolith has special rules which displace models and terrain that it lands on when it deep strikes. So, if the Necrons Warriors are moved lets say 4" aside to make room for the monolith. Now its time for the Necron Warriors to move. Since they already moved 4" they may only continue to move an additional 2" (for a total of no more than 6" in the movement phase)?

Is this how Necron players are playing this?

In my experience, most people game it that the Necron Warriors still get their 6" normal move. Any extra movement which may have occured due to displacement from the Monolith deep striking is not included in the 6" total for the turn.

If you're not giving marines extra movement when they regroup then you shouldn't give Necrons extra movement when they are displaced by a deep striking Monolith.

As an aside, I don't think anywhere in the rules it says that a unit is limited to a total of 6" maximum in the movement phase. It just describes that a "normal move" is a movement of up to 6" in the movement phase. In other words, when a unit is entitled to conduct a "normal move", it may move up to 6" (and this movment occurs during the movement phase). This "normal move" does not take in account any additional movment which may or may not have already occured.

As far as I can tell there are a few types of special moves a unit may be required to take in the game.
-Falling back
-Regrouping
-Deep Strike Displacement
-Tank Shock Reaction

All of these moves occur during the movement phase but none of them are considered "normal moves" and are thus outside of the purview of the rules for a "normal move".

So, if the regrouping rules say that a unit regroups, immediatly may move 3" and then may conduct a normal move, I see no reason why a Space Marine squad couldn't move a total of 9" in the movement phase (when it regroups).

Of course this is just RAW. I've never seen a Marine player try to do this. But I have seen many Necron players do the Monolith Displacement thing.

Tek wrote:I smell cheese. A 9" move after getting pummeled? And then another 6" for assault?

I bloody hate the Spase Marinez.

Whats really slanted, is when that happens because they 'choose to fail'.

Marines vs Marines, they just walk out of close combat with terminators, it's ridiculous.

Interesting post!

Nurglitch wrote:"Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always count as moving on the turn it regroups) or run, and it can even launch an assault if it gets the chance."

So, after a unit has taken or discarded the option of regrouping movement, once it has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase. In other words, it cannot make an additional move during that Movement phase.

Hence the point of this line of argument, the point that it proves, is that the 3" regrouping move is separate from, and in addition to, any movement it could otherwise make during that Movement phase.

This is nothing but 2+2=5 and no matter how many times you insist it is thats not the case.

There is no proof at all that the 3" is given an exception to the limitation on maxium distance permitted in the movement phase. Its a seperate move? Who cares? Its a move in the movement phase, and the movement phase VERY CLEARLY limits you to a total maxium, as per page 11. Had you read page 11 you would realise that it is not limiting the distance of a 'normal move action' or somesuch, its just a simple check on the total displace achieved by the unit in that phase of the turn.

All you are doing is repeating what you want the rules to be. Show me this proof, your failure to do so means the only proof found here is the proof that you're making things up.

And They Shall Know No Fear confirms this by saying:

"Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule."

This sentence states that there are two restrictions in the normal regrouping rules that model with And They Shall Know No Fear are exempt from. I've already explained how they are properly exempt from the normal grouping requirement that units always count as moving whether they take the regrouping move or not. The other restriction is that regrouping troops cannot move normally. If Space Marines are exempt from the restriction that regrouping troops cannot otherwise move normally, then they can otherwise move normally.

Again dispite your false claims there is no exception allowing marines to move in the movement phase and fire heavy weapons. If they move in the movement phase AT ANY TIME, then they have moved. Its not rocket science. Your whole paragraph here is frankly pointless, one sentence merely summarised ATSKNF the other simply refered to your previous flawed argument.

This is nothing but "I'm right because I just said I am" if you insist on trying to debate the rules at least put together something that follows logic.

Space Marines are allowed to move normally, which page 11 states is a total of 6" in the movement phase, NOT 9".

The remainder of your post is nothing but childish insults where you simply repeat "I'm right because I say so and you're wrong because you're stupid" again and again in the hope that if you throw a big enough tantrum that I'll let you have your way. Sadly for you the fact of the matter is that the 3" of movement given by regrouping contains no exceptions to the normal rules for movement. Therefore the normal rules apply and must be followed, as you are in fact told to follow by ATSKNF itself.

Marines ARE limited to 6" movement maxium, and if they move in the movement phase at all they would be unable to fire as if they where stationary.

Holden makes a good point.

To be fair, Hymirl, you're both kind of doing the same thing. Granted, Nurglitch comes off as much less insulting...

Hymirl:

The funny thing is that the statement '2+2=5' is true for certain values of 2 and 5. Likewise, I have shown you what the values are for the terms we're working with, so that you can check the proof for validity, and hence soundness.

Seeing as you are incredibly pricklish and unreasonable, and obviously cannot hold an adult conversation about rules without childishly taking criticism personally, I think I'll stop replying to you.

holden88:

Nicely done.

[quote=Hymirl Sadly for you the fact of the matter is that the 3" of movement given by regrouping contains no exceptions to the normal rules for movement. Therefore the normal rules apply and must be followed, as you are in fact told to follow by ATSKNF itself.

Holden's point doesn't help, those necrons are arguably being moved by a compulsory move which could grant them an exception, arguably they could be limited to only having a further 2" allowed. Its not proof either way. Besides Holden's comment is build on this premise;

"All of these moves occur during the movement phase but none of them are considered "normal moves" and are thus outside of the purview of the rules for a "normal move". "

Where is 'normal move' defined in the rulebook? If there is a rule saying what is an isn't a 'normal move' then I'd like a look. My problem here is that people are making up there own definitions and trying to use them as proof... thats not how the rules work.

Seeing as you are inredibly pricklish and unreasonable, and obviously cannot hold an adult conversation about rules without childishly taking criticism personally, I think I'll stop replying to you.

Intresting so you insult me, take offense when I point out that you've done so and use it as an excuse to leave the arguement without admiting that you're wrong or having to produce the proof that I asked you to....

Fact. Page 11 states Models limited to move up to 6" in the movement phase.
Fact. Page 17 states that any models that moved in the movement phase means the unit counts as having moved.
Fact. Page 46 states that the regroup test is in the movement phase, ergo so is the 3" movement.
Fact. ATSKNF states that the marines will then follow the rules for normal movement (thereby being bound by the first two points in this list).

My argument is founded on those rules, its concrete since there are no exceptions granted to either the limit nor the act of having moved in the movement phase by any rule.

However I fully understand if you wish to conceed in the face of irrefutable proof of your error.

SeattleDV8 wrote:
Sadly Hymirl, the regroup move does contain an exception to normal movement.
It ignores difficult terrain.

Sadly SeattleDV8, the abilty to ignore difficult terrain is the ability to ignore difficult terrain, not an ability to ignore all the rules in the book that you don't like.