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paidinfull wrote:
What if they are in difficult terrain? How does that work? 3" + (2d6-3)?

Thats actually so simple it hurts.

You roll 2d6 and can move UP TO the highest number rolled, so long as your total movelemt for the turn is UP TO 6".

So if you move 3 for the rally then roll a 5 and a 2 you can move 3"

paidinfull wrote:Hymril
It clearly states that the 3" move occurs before the unit moves, as I posted.

p.11 says a unit can move up to 6" in the movement phase

Firstly, I'm glad we can fully agree on these key facts.

The C:SM specifically states they ignore the normal restraints on movement placed by regrouping, and can MOVE AS NORMAL. Which is definitely 6". 3" special move + 6" normal move = 9" total move.

Yes, and MOVE AS NORMAL which you're directed to do by ATSKNF is defined as up to 6" total per movement phase, not up to 9" total per movement phase.

The reason that you're saying 9" is that you've subtley altered how you're defining the normal move from the previous rule you quoted earlier. Instead of "up to 6 inches per movement phase," now you're just saying "up to 6 inches," You've moving the goalpost by taking part of the sentence out of context.

Nothing states that the 3" is considered normal movement, in fact it is clearly a special move which ignores terrain and happens before the unit moves.

Nor does it state that simply because it happens in the movement phase that it is coinsidered a part of the 6" normal move.

It does actually state that, its a blanket rule covering all movement that happens in the movement phase, there is no resctriction to only applying to normal movement. This is the point I've been making.. unlike bikes or falling back moves there is no exception granted for the regroup move meaning it must be covered by this limit even though it isn't normal movement.
A special move that ignores terrain means only that it ignores terrain, not that it ignores terrain and the limitation on movement distance.

Consider an example, a road with a speed limit stating travel at up to 30mph.
A car begins stationary and then drives away, increasing it's speed by 30mph it reaches the speed limit.
Now a car is rolling at 10mph (while the diver picks their nose fogetting to use the parking brake or something) and then decides to drive away, how much can it increase it's speed by? Can it add 30mph to it's speed without breaking the speed limit? No. Because the new total would be too high.

Similarly to what we're talking about some vehicles get exceptions, like an Ambulance can throw the speed limit in the bin. But its given an exception, its not trying to add various things together in a pseudo logical fashion.

Your question about terrain I'll just say that I fully agree with Waaaaaaagh!'s answer. The normal rule for difficult terrain and the max move limitations apply as normal. Not to be rude but assuming that there are little exceptions for things that you can create on your own because its convient is a running theme with the argument in favour of allowing 9" of total movement.

It sure as heck worked like that in 4th edition. Can you tell me where this changed in 5th?

No, they couldn't actually. That why it hasn't changed. I don't recall an official ruling on the matter but you sound very sure about it, where was it clarified?

I will hopefully be getting an official answer on the issues "discussed" here in a couple of days.

I see two main flaws here.

One, is saying that since Regroup move isn't part of 'normal' movement, that it should be ignored for that consideration. There is nothing in the rule for normal movement that supports that. The rule does *not* say "Move up to 6" in the movement phase, in addition to other movement already performed." there is no such qualifier....

Two, is to skip over the second part of the rule. The rule does *not* say "Move up to 6(Period)" It says it covers movement in the phase, it does not restrict what movement is counted towards the 6" No one has been able to provide a reasoning to exempt any movement from this 6"....

Where the latter says: "Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase," the former says: "Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally".

Therefore, to move normally is to move during the Movement phase otherwise than regrouping.

You state 'otherwise', sorry, but the rule does *not* state that. The rule does not allow for any movement to be ignored.

As I noted above, we can accurately paraphrase this to be say: A Space Marine unit that regroups can move up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain and can in other respects move during that Movement phase.

We agree on this. They *can* move during that movement phase, and the rules state they can move up to 6" in the *Phase*, the rules do not say they can move 6" *Additional* in the phase.

What other respects are there to move in during the Movement phase? There is the respect in which a unit of Space Marine Infantry can move normally, up to 6"

Again, you have left out the rest of the rule. It should read "...Space Marine Infantry can move normally, up to 6" in the Movement Phase"
That is what Normal Movement does, it lets you move up to 6" in the PHASE... not 6" additional, not 6" more, not 6" in this part of the phase. It is pretty succinct... you can move up to 6" in the Movement Phase.

For one thing, you've decided that the rules for Movement Distance puts an absolute limit of 6" on Infantry when no such limit exists,
The 6" limit is for normal movement,

Careful there. Perhaps not an absolute limit for *all* movement, but the rules for Movement distance put a limit of 6" for "Normal Movement", that is exactly what it does. Now, there may then be movement after that.... but the rules are pretty clear that there is a distinct limit for Normal Movement.

'Once a unit has regrouped (that's passed a Regroup test, stopped falling back, and moved up to 3" ignoring difficult terrain), it can otherwise move during that Movement phase and otherwise it behaves as normal.'

Again, we agree. And according to the rules, 'behave as normal' means up to 6" in the *phase*.

After a Space Marine unit has regrouped, it can otherwise move and behave as normal. That means moving it has the option of moving up to 6" in the phase and counting as moving for the purposes of shooting, or not moving and counting as stationary for the purposes of shooting.

I included the rest of the rule.

I'm curious. Could you explain why the wording of Regrouping means that it falls under the 6" limit described by Movement Distances?

that is easy. The rule talks about 2 criteria. 1) movement (no restrictions or exceptions stated) and 2) Timing (the movement phase). Did the regroup movement happen in the movement phase? Did it include movement? There you go, you have met both criteria.

It isn't just regrouping, *all* movement (that I can think of) is included for Normal Movement.
"but what about falling back?" Are you Moving Normally when falling back? No? than no need to worry about the Nromal Movement rules.
Nor do the normal movement rules matter when regrouping. But *after* you regroup, then the marines can "move normally" and those rules put a limit on the amount you can move during the phase. Once you pass that, you are *not* moving normally.






Paidinfull:
I don't understand why this rule would make any difference to you

p.46
A unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move.

The regroup test happens before you move, but the regroup movement is still happening during the movement phase. The Normal Movement rules consider all movement in the *phase*.

Waaagh!
It's not as simple as it sounds. Nowhere does it say to do as you have described and that is simply your opinion not how it is. My SUGGESTION was to do that however that is not RAW.

Hymril
Moving 3" before you actually move is considered part of your move? For that matter how can it be A PART of something that hasn't happened yet? Please show me where this is in the BRB. You and I both know that it's not. All movement in the movement phase is not covered under that rule obviously... uh, jump packs, bikes etc., Random and Compulsory can all in fact.

What about disembarking? I moved 2" and then I moved 6"... HOLY CRAPSKI! I just moved 8" in the movement phase!!!!!!!!!
I know you don't want to admit it but you are wrong.
Space Marines can in fact move 9" after Regrouping.

Coredump
See above

Hymirl wrote:ALL movement in the movement phase is bound by the limit of up to 6" total for infantry unless its 'random or comulsory.' Being 'normal' movement is not a requirement mentioned anywhere on page 11.

Where did you come up with this? Outside of a possible exception in the fall back rules, I can see no raw rule that allows necron warriors that are 'compulsoried' displaced by a deep striking monolith that would not force them to count the distance they had to move against the 6" restriction on pg 11. As a matter of fact, I can't find where they would be allowed to move any further at all in the movement phase.

After all, you can't move a unit some of it's allowed movement, then you move another unit, then go back and finish your movement of the previous unit.

yakface wrote:Monoliths only displace ENEMY units. If they deep strike on top of friendly models they still incur a Deep Strike mishap.

Monoliths only displace enemy units if you roll a 1 or a 2 on the deep strike mishap table, just like friendly models.

Monoliths just ignore 'destroyed' results on the mishap table due to their ponderous rule. Nothing I have seen would allow them to ignore results 3-4 or 5-6 of the deep strike mishap table.

Technically a case could be made that friendly models can't be moved out of the way...

paidinfull wrote:Moving 3" before you actually move is considered part of your move? For that matter how can it be A PART of something that hasn't happened yet? Please show me where this is in the BRB. You and I both know that it's not.

I have not at any point claimed that the move from regrouping is part of the unit's normal move. I fully agree that marine units get a move from regrouping and then a seperate normal move.

What I am arguing is that the move from regroup counts towards movement performed by that unit during that movement phase,. Its very important to keep the definition of 'movement phase' in at this point because thats the time frame over which both the regroup movement and the normal movement happens, and the key wordign that requires.

Because movement from regrouping happens in the movement phase its covered by the limitation on movement in the movement phase.

All movement in the movement phase is not covered under that rule obviously... uh, jump packs, bikes etc., Random and Compulsory can all in fact.

Given that we both already agree on this statement I don't really see why you're repeating it. However I'll reiterate (just like last time) that the point you still need to prove is that regrouping has an exception, we know where the exceptions for jump packs, bikes and Random and Compulsory are my question is still, where is the exception for regrouping?

If you prefer an example with jump packs, I'd be saying that they can regroup, moving up to 3" and then may move normally as per ATSKNF allows which would be upto a total of 12" in that movement phase, not a total of 15".

What about disembarking? I moved 2" and then I moved 6"... HOLY CRAPSKI! I just moved 8" in the movement phase!!!!!!!!!

Not really, page 67 defines disembarking from a transport to be 'deploying' which means its not consdiered a 'move' by the rules. The model doesn't actually move when the model is placed on the table, thats why they had to add a rule saying they 'count as moving' when they fire.
So you still only move up to 6" from where the models started that movement phase, but you start up to 2" away from the tank.

I know you don't want to admit it but you are wrong.
Space Marines can in fact move 9" after Regrouping.

With all respect these sort of statements only serve to increase hosility, its not needed. If you are right then you can prove it as per the rules, I'm still inviting you to do so, however I don't think its possible.

paidinfull wrote:

p.46
A unit falling back can attempt to regroup by taking a Regroup test in the Movement phase just before they move.

Huh... this is something...
Honestly, this makes me feel like I've been playing it correctly. It clearly conveys this test happens before the unit moves.

The problem with switching sides (back) based on this quote is that the quote clearly says that the regroup happens in the movement phase and, as has been quoted before:

p.11
Infantry can move up to 6" in the Movement Phase.

The regroup (and subsequent 3" that are allowed, but not compulsory or random) all still happen during the movement phase, thus subjecting them to the quoted ruls from pg 11.

Eric

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

paidinfull wrote:
What if they are in difficult terrain? How does that work? 3" + (2d6-3)?

Thats actually so simple it hurts.

You roll 2d6 and can move UP TO the highest number rolled, so long as your total movelemt for the turn is UP TO 6".

So if you move 3 for the rally then roll a 5 and a 2 you can move 3"

That seems (to me) to be the best way to handle it... but it's MOST DEFINITELY not in the rules, unfortunately.

How that part is resolved is, unfortunately, left to a house rule. Clearly (to some), though, 9" movement is not specifically permitted in the rules.

Eric

paidinfull wrote:
What about disembarking? I moved 2" and then I moved 6"... HOLY CRAPSKI! I just moved 8" in the movement phase!!!!!!!!!

Disembarking is NOT movement. It can be most closely associated with deployment, though that association would be fore descriptive purposes only, and not a rule.

Disembarking is, simply, placing your models on the table within 2" of an allowed exit on the transport prior to moving them.

It does happen in the movement phase but, according to the rules for Disembarking on page 67 or the BGB, there is nothing that says Disembarking is movement.

You would need to use a different example to show something that specifically allows them to move the 9". As has been said, thus far all that has been shown is inferrence by the misinterpretation of rules. It has been plainly stated numerous times what the maximum normal movement allowed is (6").

Eric

I would like to interject on your thread. I am a reasonably new player to 40k, but have played other games previously.

Since I play SM, the answer of 3" in addition to 6" would obviously benefit me the best. After reading the arguments from both sides, it comes down to a question to see if the 3" regroup move counts as part of the 6" total per movement phase: Is there a rule SPECIFICALLY exempting it from this limit?

The answer seems to be no.

If the answer is yes, then please quote it. If no, then it applies. Other things like compulsory moves (falling back), special equipment (bikes, jump packs), disembarking, etc ALL say specifically that it is in addition. 3" regroup has no such exemption listed, and that omission should speak volumes to the objective answer seeker.

I want it to be 9" as well (greedily at that) but the rules pretty clearly limit movement, where not EXPLICITLY stated, by infantry to 6" in the movement phase.

Finally got an answer from GW:

"Hello,

Sorry for the delay in responding to you, we have been busy. Our stance is that you do not get the 3” regroup movement and your normal 6” movement combined. We suggest ignoring the 3” regroup movement and just taking your normal 6” movement.



Thanks!



John Spencer

Customer Service Specialist"