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I've noticed you never see him in any of the SM lists posted here... Lysander and Vulkan appear to be the two favorites.

G

Both Lysander and Vulcan have _very_ big effects on the majority of your army. The same way as Shrike does. So you can build very interesting and different lists by using those named characters. While Captain Sicarius do indeed have useful abilities, he is not nearly as "game-changing" as the other, and he costs a lot of points for what he does as well.

He's a complete bad-ass, but people don't realize how good having army-wide LD 10 and giving a tac squad a veteran skill is. Also, he makes it more likely that you can steal the initiative, forcing your opponent into a more defensive set-up, even if he goes first. He really is a game-changing special character, but people often don't value things which are more subtle.

No one uses him because he's Ultrasmurfs!!!!

I think people see the price tag and the whole ode to the 4ed marine rules (USR and rites of battle) and go on to other newer, fresher options. But I think he has potential and have been tempted to use him myself.

Sternguard_rock wrote:No one uses him because he's Ultrasmurfs!!!!

QFT

Not having any idea of the new dex but people are moving away from smurf [thank god!!!!!! ]

FNP 2+ armour, never a bad thing. Again, deathly sword. Aswell as all the other rules...

With all his special rules I think he is one of the best choices for a SC. His wargear is really nice too.

G

I must admit, I think he has a lot going for him too- it's just that the other SCs can give rather obvious broken (relatively) combinations.

What is the most broken thing Sicarius' special abilities can do? A single infiltrated tactical squad isn't all that scary...

OddJob. wrote:I must admit, I think he has a lot going for him too- it's just that the other SCs can give rather obvious broken (relatively) combinations.

What is the most broken thing Sicarius' special abilities can do? A single infiltrated tactical squad isn't all that scary...

But a tactical squad with a tank hunting lascannon sure is.

I think Sicarius in general is more tactical.

G

IMO sicarrius is not worth it on his own but in a list with another special character where he can use his abilities to further enhance the marine armies strength then he really comes into power.

I had to create an account just to add my thoughts on this.

I use Sicarious in almost every battle, which, to date is about 20 fights. I love him, and I never leave the house without him anymore.

He's solid in CC, not the best, obviously, but VERY solid with 2+/4++ FNP. Things I've personally felled with a Coup De Grace attack: A DE Telos, Mephiston, and a DC Chaplain. It doesn't always work, but it's a great option, and when it pays off, it REALLY pays off. Having this option allows him to still get a crazy lot of attacks against weak hordes (don't forget his plasma pistol for +1A).

He shoots a plasma pistol with a 1:90ish chance of taking a wound, thanks to 2+, FNP. Combine him with a plasma-spam command squad for about 9 plasma shots, all from FNP vets.

I use combat squads all the time to make use of my LC/TL-PG Razorbacks, and thanks to his Rites of Battle (the only character to still offer this), even my 5 man seargent-less combat squads at the back (y'know, the ones with the LC and PC's) are LD 10, and that much harder to run off the board.

My core is two tac squads, one with LC, MG, Combi-Melta, Powerfist, the other with PC, PG, C-Plas, Meltabombs. Both have LC/TL-PG Razorbacks. Here's the fun part. Sicarious can either a) give squad 1 Tank Hunters, so I have a TH Lascannon, and TH Meltax2, and a TH Powerfist in the squad, or b) give squad 2 Scouts. This lets me re-adjust a Plasma Cannon to a better location, and Outflank with a RB-mounted plasma squad. Counter-attack and Infiltrate also have great possibility, though I haven't found a direct use for them in my force yet.

There's many more possible combinations, but these two are the ones I've used personally. Even my regular opponents don't know which one I'll use, and that choice is made during deployment, so it's perfectly legal to change it between games, even in a Tournament. Who else can make major shifts to the way their army deploys based on a character? Eldar with Eldrad?

Then, there's the re-roll to Seize the Initiative. This has worked out twice for me so far, and it can REALLY throw your opponent. Instead of a 1/6 chance, I have a 1/3 chance to put my opponent on the back foot.

All in all, I think Sicarious is the most subtle and most effective HQ in the new Marine codex. I also use wide array of librarians, chaplains, and have even used Marneus Calgar, and nothing has worked so well as Sicarious at making my force nimble and able to rise above the normal power bar for a Marine army.

Having an insanely powerful character that focuses on Close Combat is nice, but too easily avoided in my opinion. If you want to make Calgar or Lysander really effective, you need a Land Raider Delivery System. Sicarious starts changing the battle before any units are even deployed.

QFT.

G

GeneralRetreat ha made some very good points, but he forgot a major one....

In addition to all the goodies that were mentioned (including LD10 for the entire army), Sicarius does not remove Combat Tactics as most of the SM SCs do. This only adds to his tactical flexibility. You get some great unique abilities, without losing the best one that all SMs start with.



Edited for clarity and spelling....

At 200 points I think Sicarius is a bit too high in points for what he gives me. Maybe I'll play him next week though.

However, I've been boned by his tank hunter ability thanks to a drop poding meltagun/multimelta/combi melta squad. +2 to the damange table takes out landraiders quickly.

Nobody takes Sicarius because he doesn't twinlink flamers/meltas and mastercraft thunderhammers.

I love his model. But he does seem pricey on paper. The LD 10 is neat, and so is the vet skill, but is it as good as TL meltas/flamers/THammers? Fleeting Terminators? Flanking transports (LRs)? Dunno. I would say Vulkan, Shrike, and Khan are the big special characters, not so much Lysander.

He seems to combine well with other chars, but so do many of the new SCs.

I agree with General Retreat, I've used Sicarious exclusively in the new book. I think that he's the best option if you're fielding lots of tactical squads, particularly if you don't need/want the re-rolls to melta and flamer weapons.

I think the reason he's not used more is that he boosts tactical squads, which aren't the best unit in the Codex. Vulcan boosts TH ASsault Terminators (and other good stuff), Pedro boosts sternguard, and lysander is just a tank. So, if you're trying to build the best SM list without really including the best units (Assault termies and sternguard), then he's great.

But, as General Retreat said, I love having him as a Swiss army Knife. My squads are LD 10, but can still run away. I can have a squad tank hunt, or I can have two outflanking combat squads (one in a razorback!). He's a solid little guy in combat, and he's hard to kill.

Since apparently no one over here on DD has seen a Sicarious based list, here's mine.

This is a demi-company that I am fielding for an upcoming 2250 game against a new player. I have purposely not taken any of my normal uber units, like a LRR with TH/SS Termies, Vindicators, etc. My friend is far from having the force he wants, and I don't believe in throwing things at him that I know he can't deal with. We've already had a couple games like that, and it's just not fun, even to win.

So, here's my "Bread and Butter" list, a true Demi-Company, mechanized, and led by Cato Sicarious. It is purposely NOT overly min-maxed. I have those lists too if you want to see them.


HQ
Cato Sicarious
Command Squad - Champion, Standard, Meltabombs x2, Powerfist x 2, Plasma Pistol
Razorback w Lascannon + Twin Linked Plasmagun
Chaplain, Jump Pack, Digital Weapons, Meltabombs

Troops
Tac x 10 Lascannon, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Powerfist, RB w LCtlPG + Storm Bolter
Tac x 10 Plasma Cannon, Meltagun, Powerweapon, Meltabombs, RB w LCtlPG +SB
Tac x 10 Plasma Cannon, Plasmagun, Combi-Plasma, Meltabombs, RB w LCtlPG +SB

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad x 10 Lascannon, Rocket Launcher x 3

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x 10 Flamer x 2, Thunderhammer

Elite
Dreadnought Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
Dreadnought Twin-Linked Lascannon

2250 Points
57 Marines in 6 squads, 10 after Combat Squad divisions
6 Vehicles; 2 Walker, 4 Transport
3 - 6 Scoring Units, 14 – 18 Kill Points
Sicarious will grant Tank Hunters to Tac 1, or Scout to Tac 2 or 3

Sicarius is the only SC that interests me.

G

I consider most of the Marine characters, including Kantor and Vulkan, to actually *nerf* your army. Sicarius is one of very few who doesn't, and instead objectively makes you better (leadership 10 on all units? yes, please!). His high point cost can be an obstacle, but if you're willing to pay up, I really do think he's a better choice than most Marine SCs.

I guess I'm spoiled by Chaos Space Marines, with everything either Fearless or Champions giving 10 Ld to their squad - didn't realize most standard marines have Ld 9 (even the mighty Termies!)

Looking at Capt. Sic, I think he's an interesting balanced HQ choice. It's just that Hestan is underpriced for the slowed amount of stuff he does. I agree that to use Hestan his fullest you need to set up your special/heavy weapons in a very rigid way. But most MMs are free upgrades or very cheap upgrades on most units.

This has been very inspiring reading. I must try using Sicarius in my next marine army.

I think that the new SM Characters are all fitted to a "theme". Vulkan makes everything toasty better at being toasty. Marneus Calgar is a rock to break against. Lysander is the ultimate Terminator. Kor'sarro Khan is the epitome of fast and furious styles of war. Varro Tigurius is the Ultimate Librarian, Cassius the penultimate Chaplain.

My thinking is that GW decided to give each of these characters a niche, not only to help cement them in the fluff and create iconic canon characters, but also to make them quality archetypes to be used under different names for chapters not normally associated with that character. Quality and utility. Brilliant.

(I said all that so I could say this)

Cato Sicarious is truly the best Battlefield Commander. His skills, unlike most characters, are all about enhancing your Tactical Squads first, and the Army overall second. If you like your Troops to shine like Elites, if you want your core army to be as flexible and tactically sound as any army can be, take Sicarious. If you want to directly enhance other types of units, there are better choices; namely Kantor for Sternguard, Kor'Sarro for Bikers, Lysander for Terminators, Master of the Forge for Dreadnoughts.

But I think, if you look at the synergies generated in each of these situations, really, only Vulkan's granted abilities stand up to Sicarious'. And as a previous poster mentioned, that locks you into a rut of weapons choices. Given, they are all great choices, but too few! Sicarious strikes me as the type of character that knows his place, as a part of a wider force. Instead of using his troops as a necessity, he elevates them to being his greatest asset. He doesn't just have a roundhouse punch, he's got jabs and blocks and body punches, cross-hooks and even a mean stare from across the ring. He's the total package when you're talking about a Space Marine strikeforce. I think people get carried away with "What if this character and Lysander were fighting each other all alone". Of course he'd loose. But now his Marines are in your base. Most likely killing your dudes.

Sicarius is by far my favorite SC in the SM codex.

1. You DO NOT loose Combat Tactics. This is the main reason why I do not use other SC, I love CT too much to give it up. It is such a powerful ability, and imo (for my play style) it is too important to drop.

2. He allows you to adapt to your opponent. Depending on the army you are up against, you can choose a vet skill that will help the most. If you go first, having a 10man tactical squad in a Rhino with the Scout ability can be brutal, especially when combined with a drop podding dread or infiltrated scouts

3. Surprise Attack is underrated. We all know that a success Seize the Initiative can drastically change the course of a game. But 1/3 is still not a great chance of success :( However, the *fear* of success in your opponent, resulting in a less aggressive setup, can help the SM player.

4. Not bad in CC at all. He is by no means a CC monster, but his ability to take out characters in 1 attack does make someone think twice when engaging.

5. Universal Leadership 10. Ld10 + ATSKNF + Combat Tactics = extremely powerful tactical control, second to only Calgar. Like it was mention before, having all of your combat squads have Ld10 helps them stay in the fight.

Overall, I think Sicarius is better suited for a more adaptable/infantry based army. Obviously, he is not for everyone, people who want a more aggressive army would pass him over for another SC. But I think Sicarius is an underrated SC

asugradinwa:

You were cheated. Tank Hunters is +1 to the armour penetration roll, while AP1 is +1 to the damage roll.

All:

Yeah, Sicarious rocks pretty hard. It's pretty interesting how he really makes a standard Space Marine battle company into something that matches the fluff.

Why couldn't you take Sicarius with another character? He doesn't replace Chapter Tactics, so could play with Vulkan, Shrike, etc. making your core stronger while still benefiting from the addl perks. Am I missing something?

Apart from spending a lot of points on HQ-choices and some fluff-related issues, I can't see any problem with having both Sicarius and one of the "list-changing" characters there.

I'm new to this site but i play SM and I've seen Sicarius in action
Hes like a maxed out chapter master from previous SM codex

my friend uses him great and can put a hurt on a lot of things but in a standard 1500 pt game its hard to tag him with another hero

I tried making a list with Sicarious + shrike... but hes just too expensive to tag with another big hero

BUT

If if you use the TANK "Cassius" and tag him with a good assault or vanguard squad, hes cheap tough to kill and FNP
i think hes the greatest General SM have but hes expensive and doesn't help your whole army like Shrike

Great for big games or more tactical approach to a game but I wouldn't recommend him to be side by side with another character