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Azuza001 wrote:
I think I will get calgar then, seems like a good purchase for what he does. I don't want to go full Guilliman.

Any feelings on the command rhino? I never gave it much thought until I noticed it gets to give a +1 to hits to a squad. That may be super useful for hellblasters or a plasma cannon dev squad. Even laz cannons wound find that useful. Or is it too weak and easy a target? It does seem expensive vs a normal rhino.

I think I want my ultramarine army to be infantry based, maybe grab another drop pod to double up on the drop in and fire tactic. Scouts running forward for cover. Tacticals and devs with heavy weapons for the rest. May even do the banner / apothecary trick on a plasma cannon dev squad for the extra attacks if I blow myself up.

The rhino is really quite good. +1 to hit is very hard to get, and very powerful. It's actually a decent replacement for a captain, if all you want the guy for is the reroll aura. You can even put some people in it, to reduce your drop count.

For best effect, combine the +1 to hit with a unit of 10 hellblasters, or 6 plasma inceptors dropping in. Better yet, make those inceptors Dark Angels.

Is the data sheet for the command rhino in the codex - if not where can I find it?

Page 47 of the Index, Rhino Primaris. It can not transport primaris though so kind of a bad name :p

Oh sweet!!!

 Primark G wrote:
Is the data sheet for the command rhino in the codex - if not where can I find it?

For someone that thinks the codex is decent you don't really know a lot about the options, huh?

The Rhino Primaris is way too expensive at its price point.

Mandragola wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I think I will get calgar then, seems like a good purchase for what he does. I don't want to go full Guilliman.

Any feelings on the command rhino? I never gave it much thought until I noticed it gets to give a +1 to hits to a squad. That may be super useful for hellblasters or a plasma cannon dev squad. Even laz cannons wound find that useful. Or is it too weak and easy a target? It does seem expensive vs a normal rhino.

I think I want my ultramarine army to be infantry based, maybe grab another drop pod to double up on the drop in and fire tactic. Scouts running forward for cover. Tacticals and devs with heavy weapons for the rest. May even do the banner / apothecary trick on a plasma cannon dev squad for the extra attacks if I blow myself up.

The rhino is really quite good. +1 to hit is very hard to get, and very powerful. It's actually a decent replacement for a captain, if all you want the guy for is the reroll aura. You can even put some people in it, to reduce your drop count.

For best effect, combine the +1 to hit with a unit of 10 hellblasters, or 6 plasma inceptors dropping in. Better yet, make those inceptors Dark Angels.

It's like 190 points though. Costs way to much. 140 would be a fair price.

Also - it needs to transport 10 guys...i think it only can carry 5.

It really shouldn't have any transport capacity at all bar 1 comander. Its basically a razorback with command datalinks etc.
Also good luck legaly fielding one as its a warhammer world exclusive model that comes in a pack of two command tanks and is some silly price. Hence the ridiculous bs of being able to build a landraider warlord.

Id rather deal with a Land Raider warlord than Guilliman or Celestine... you can pick the Land Raider out.

Yeah that is a good point for sure.

Ice_can wrote:
It really shouldn't have any transport capacity at all bar 1 comander. Its basically a razorback with command datalinks etc.
Also good luck legaly fielding one as its a warhammer world exclusive model that comes in a pack of two command tanks and is some silly price. Hence the ridiculous bs of being able to build a landraider warlord.

To be fair the price isn't actually all that insane. It's £75, which isn't much more than the cost of a normal land raider and rhino.

And of course you can just convert one up. It's a rhino with a radar dish and a pintle-mounted twin plasma gun instead of storm bolter. It wouldn't be that hard to do. Nobody's going to call a lawyer - not even the events team at warhammer world itself. I mean you have a guy using the Land raider out of that set as a Custodes LR, and nobody bats an eyelid.

So I dunno what you guys seen with the new Necron codex, but there's definitely stuff we need to learn to tackle in there.

While the same thing of trying to focus on the squad until it's dead still applies, they got some pretty fantastic buffs in different areas. Destroyers and Wraiths definitely make Primaris overall too expensive, and Immortals still do fantastically.

At minimum we will need more Scouts to prevent Destroyer drops like with Obliterators.

Between the new necrons and the new Tau I'm feeling even more depressed about our chances.

So much ap, volume of fire, d2 weapons and chaff. Both look like extremely good marine killers. Throw in their strats and I'm not sure how to even approach the solution if it's not guilliman and fire raptors...

bananathug wrote:
Between the new necrons and the new Tau I'm feeling even more depressed about our chances.

So much ap, volume of fire, d2 weapons and chaff. Both look like extremely good marine killers. Throw in their strats and I'm not sure how to even approach the solution if it's not guilliman and fire raptors...

I don't think even Guilliman + Flyer can save marines. Given how expensive marines are, you won't have many models on field, so under that kind of firepower and speed of the assault unit enemy have, it is likely that no less than 50% of your army will be dead or tied up in combat in 1st turn anyway, leaving very few guys Guilliman can buff.

I think it is better to try have some units with overwelming firepower, put those guys in Droppod, plus some jumppack Vanguards. Avoid their alpha strike, and alpha strike them in return and hope for the best. Just hope GW will drop the points of Droppod and foot marines!

every army made gets options to efficiently kill marines since marines are half the armies in the game. It sucks, then, to be a marine player.

stratigo wrote:
every army made gets options to efficiently kill marines since marines are half the armies in the game. It sucks, then, to be a marine player.

has options to, and takes the options

So I've heard that hellblasters are a bit of a noob trap. Can anybody give me the lowdown on why? I've been running a unit to great success.

If I had to guess, they're not durable enough? Vulnerable In the meta maybe. Although nobody at my local club runs huge hordes, lots of marines and chaos.

 EagleArk wrote:
So I've heard that hellblasters are a bit of a noob trap. Can anybody give me the lowdown on why? I've been running a unit to great success.

If I had to guess, they're not durable enough? Vulnerable In the meta maybe. Although nobody at my local club runs huge hordes, lots of marines and chaos.

Yeah honestly no idea why some people think they are bad.

 Desubot wrote:

 EagleArk wrote:
So I've heard that hellblasters are a bit of a noob trap. Can anybody give me the lowdown on why? I've been running a unit to great success.

If I had to guess, they're not durable enough? Vulnerable In the meta maybe. Although nobody at my local club runs huge hordes, lots of marines and chaos.

Yeah honestly no idea why some people think they are bad.

I dont know If its a situation of there are better units for what they do? Or rather, people would rather take assbacks and lascannon devastators instead of generalising.

 EagleArk wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 EagleArk wrote:
So I've heard that hellblasters are a bit of a noob trap. Can anybody give me the lowdown on why? I've been running a unit to great success.

If I had to guess, they're not durable enough? Vulnerable In the meta maybe. Although nobody at my local club runs huge hordes, lots of marines and chaos.

Yeah honestly no idea why some people think they are bad.

I dont know If its a situation of there are better units for what they do? Or rather, people would rather take assbacks and lascannon devastators instead of generalising.

Its entirely possible they are basing it off of competitive play where there are less and less options as people condense down armies to the absolute most efficient points costs for damage wound or whatever.

that and the lack of transports might be the thing, even though at 30" they should never not be shooting something outside of LOS problems.

My problem with hellblasters is they cost too much for what they do compared to other options in other books. But it probably is mostly a dark reaper problem.

You are paying for 2 attacks on a unit that you pray never gets into CC. 2 wounds is a joke in this edition so you are paying for durability that you wont use.

The best thing about them is their ability to move and shoot without penalty meaning they can hide out of LOS (for what that's worth) and survive some alpha strike.

They are seriously out shot by plasma ceptors on a point per wound inflicted basis.

The lack of a reasonably priced transport or deepstrike (outside of raven guard/wolves) makes them hard to get where you want them without getting them shot off the table (and wolves work better for this than RG)

No ablative wounds means that they are juicy targets for pretty much every gun out there, a lot of units have a really good points spent for opponent points removed ratio against them.

They work pretty good in a DA army but I think plasma ceptors work so much better since both units are going to be shot off the board as soon as they poke their heads out the ceptors have a better chance of dealing more damage to the right target and not having to worry about return fire.

I own 10 and haven't used them in a competitive list since eldar came out. Dark reapers counter hellblasters so hard that they are pretty much unplayable against eldar armies with reapers. Given how popular that army comp is in most tournaments hellblasters can't really be included in a TAC list.

Hellblasters get targeted and eliminated at ranges over 30" pretty easily. There are plenty of weapons that can target them out of LoS and deal multiple wounds. Unfortunately.

Those same Nlos multi damage weapons can also often out range and hit devs too but people dont say anything about them.

What weapon outside of a hand full of heavy weapons or dedicated elite weapons shoot 30" or more.

plasma cannons sure, the most common anti infantry two damage weapons would be plasma guns and they are range 24".

so out side of IG artillery and IG scions deep striking to get into range with plasma (which in turn you can intercept and probably erase them without the need to overcharge)
what else are there?

I blow them apart with predator autocannons and even lascannons all the time. Marines don't have a lot of other high-priority targets. They're marines.

Devs have ablative wounds, don't offer the same return on shooting as hellblasters.

Typical dev squad has 2 heavy weapons and 3 bodies for 100-130 points and requires similar amounts of fire-power to remove as the hellblasters at 165+. With the Devs you have to remove the whole squad to start getting your points back vs the hellblasters every kill does something.

I also like devs better because that cherub is awesome for alpha/beta strikes. That and the +1 for a dude means that over-charged plasma isn't blowing up no matter what, getting 2d3 shots so similar amount of shots at 16+ inches for 40-50% less cost

If we are getting closer I prefer grav which benefits more from bobbyG, can fit 5+cherub in a razorback to pop out and get one more turn of razorbackish shooting backed by Mr. Re-roll.

Also, dark reapers which kill them both with similar ease.

Funny how some people make it out being a multi wound unit is a disadvantage.

 Primark G wrote:
Funny how some people make it out being a multi wound unit is a disadvantage.

It can be at their price point though.

It can be, especially vs IG. Or any list spamming 2 damage weapons. If they were getting the second wound for free, you'd be correct.

LOL second wound for free - do you think they are Chaos daemons or something? I really find you quite comical - don't know if you intentionally mean to come across as such though.

Primark, what are you talking about? He's saying that having to pay points for 2 wounds when so many weapons do/have the potential to do 2 damage isn't necessarily a benefit. If model A has one wound and costs 10 points, and model B has two wounds and costs 15, and the enemy has loads of multi-damage weapons, the two wound model can be worse than the one wound model. Model B appears better at first glance: twice the wounds for only +50% the cost! Except that extra wound is wasted, more often than not. If the models cost the same, then of course, 2 wounds are better than one. But if it isn't free, it isn't a no-brainer that 2 wounds are better.

How is this difficult to understand? Paying points for durability that is totally negated by the enemy's weapons is a negative.

He has said both tactical Marines and Intercessors are garbage units so why does it matter?

The ratio in points for five Intercessors versus five tactical Marines (both including a sergeant) is 1.4... which is less than the number you spouted. The thing you don't mention is that to be of any use the tactical Marines must take a costed ranged weapon to be of any real value which then immediately shifts the ratio back in favor of Intercessors and is a much more practical measure of worth.