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Oh noes! It's yet another Trenchie WYSIWYG thread. But this one is different because I really don't think the nay-sayers will have a leg to stand on.

Short and sweet...What do you lot think about using the original Avatar miniature? (Aside from it's looks of course. I fully agree the more recent Avatar is amuch better looking model)
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2093eldaravatrwarlks-h.htm

I can't see how anyone could legitimately complain. It's not a proxy or "counts as". It is what it is...and my the letter of the rules it's still legal. Ugly and stunted, but legal. (and much more capable of taking advantage of cover, thus lending it more survivability...but that's another issue )

TR

Just like the old Citadel Greater Daemons. I will try to dig up a picture of them. They are about the size of a chaos spawn LOL

At least the GDs were on 40mm bases though, that old Avatar is TINY! Smaller than a Wraithguard just about.

Why not just use the Epic one instead?

I can see it now...

"Hell, it's an Avatar, ain't it?!"

Sorry, thats a no.

However, suitably painted, it could make a kick arse Phoenix Lord counts as, or perhaps even a highly stylised Autarch.

Much like your question about the Tinboyz, it's a matter of comparing to the new model, and seeing if it could perhaps represent something else in the list better (I think I suggested 'Ard Boyz for the Tinboyz, mixed into the unit for sake of avoiding repetition) than being a WYSIWYG Nazi.

Doc, this one is not even in the same neighborhood as the tinboy/killer kan thing. That was a "counts as" issue. This is an older version of an existing model that depicts a current unit choice. It's 100% legal.
If...and it's a big if..I run this thing I will at least base it on a large round.

TR

Clthomps wrote:Just like the old Citadel Greater Daemons. I will try to dig up a picture of them. They are about the size of a chaos spawn LOL

I still use those...mainly because I'm not too keen on the current Greater Daemon models. "Cone head" keeper of secrets? No thanks.

TR

hehe "doom that wails"

Also technically I think the base size has to be the same or larger than what is included in the current kit. So yeah the model would be 100% legal but would be running around on a medium base.

The trouble is though, if going in for Competitive play (I have no idea if thats your bag) then someone could take exception to it.

Hence my reccomendation for using it as something else.

But hey, each to their own. Long as the appropriate resized base is used!

The trouble is though, if going in for Competitive play (I have no idea if thats your bag) then someone could take exception to it.

And they could also get bent as they would not have a leg to stand on rules-wise. Someone on the mirror post I made on another site made a great point. You can't just ban an older miniature from being used for what it was designed to be just because it happens to be a bit smaller than the current example. For example the old "beakie" marines are almost a head smaller than the current examples, yet no one objects to their use...and correctly so.

I would hope that all but the most anal tourny munchkin would look at the context of the army (my work in progress Eldar are with the excetion of the tanks all RT and 2nd edition models) before having a stroke.

And yes, I do play the occasional tourny, but I'm far more of a casual player.

TR

In Casual Play, I would consider you a bit of a douche if doing it deliberately, but if you had that model from way back when, I'd not begrudge you for it. Then I'd get on with my life.

In Competitive play I'd shake your hand for being a smart bastard. It's a nice and totally legal tactic (at GW Tournaments anyway, your LFGS might have the tournament rules saying most recent models only for all I know). Then I'd be an epic Chipmunk and rate you 0 for everything.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The trouble is though, if going in for Competitive play (I have no idea if thats your bag) then someone could take exception to it.

People can take exception to anything that may feel like.

But that doesnt make it illegal. Bitch, moan, throw yourself on the ground and have a full blown tantrum, its still a legal model.

If I brought that to a tourney and some douchewad brought a judge over to disqualify me or the model, I would literally laugh at the TFG as the judge tells him that is legal model and to STFU.

Nothing illegal about it. It is the model after all, just not the newest version.

I still use my elderly Ork Trukks, which are substantially smaller/easier to get cover saves with than the new ones (Not so good for blocking LoS though). Of course, in my case it's because I don't have the $120 to drop on four of the new trukks...

I see what you're saying, and I suppose it's all down to context.

Example. You decide to run with the old Avatar in a friendly game. This should never be a problem really. The clue is in the title. It's a friendly. Adherence to the rules is important, but far more about the spirit of them than the letter.

But competitive gaming. If your entire Eldar force (barring one or two recent additions I guess) is clearly comprised of old models, replete with dust, then I foresee no problem (apart from the aforementioned Douche's). However, if the rest of your force is comprised of the modern models, and you suddenly whip out Mini-Khaine, would it be an unreasonable assumption to claim you are looking for an advantage? Not necessarily accurate (I'm not accusing) but hopefully you could see where they were coming from?

Then I'd be an epic Chipmunk and rate you 0 for everything.

And if I had any warning or indication that you planned on doing that, it would be a mutual assured chipmunking!

TR

Trench-Raider wrote: For example the old "beakie" marines are almost a head smaller than the current examples, yet no one objects to their use...and correctly so.

Actually, I have seen people object to the old RT beakies... just not for rules reasons...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But competitive gaming. If your entire Eldar force (barring one or two recent additions I guess) is clearly comprised of old models, replete with dust, then I foresee no problem (apart from the aforementioned Douche's). However, if the rest of your force is comprised of the modern models, and you suddenly whip out Mini-Khaine, would it be an unreasonable assumption to claim you are looking for an advantage? Not necessarily accurate (I'm not accusing) but hopefully you could see where they were coming from?

So?

Its a legal model. Nothing more needs to be said.

Whether he has an old army, new army, a frickkin' counts as army, it is still a legal model. Every army does thing to get an advantage. You can say it is unfair and whine and blubber about it like a baby, but the fact remains, again, that it is a legal model.

This is one time where people should curb their personal dogma.

I am in total and utter agreeance with trench raider on this one.

Thats not my personal dogma though. In the least.

It's just a game to me. I don't see competitive play as a terribly good idea. What I was trying to do is explore avenues where problems might arise.

Trench-Raider wrote:

Then I'd be an epic Chipmunk and rate you 0 for everything.

And if I had any warning or indication that you planned on doing that, it would be a mutual assured chipmunking!

TR

Ah but the problem there is, I'm smart enough to be nice. Hence the handshaking and assuring you that it was cool and an awesome tactic!

I'm tricky like that.

GMMStudios wrote:hehe "doom that wails"

Hey, yeah, that's not WYSIWYG!

He's supposed to have a Wailing Doom, not a Doom that Wails.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It's just a game to me. I don't see competitive play as a terribly good idea. What I was trying to do is explore avenues where problems might arise.

I understand and agree to a certain extent (tourneys are the DEVIL), but no matter what my personal feelings are about it, it is a clearly legal thing. There is no ambiguity here, it simply "is".

If I felt that a person was gaining some 'advantage' by it, then I simply wouldnt play that person. But thats not their fault, it is my own personal problem getting in the way.

The main problem arises when newer players see this and they go WTF? not realizing that it is clearly legal. But that is where most problems such as this arise is from 'newish' players not having elderly encyclopaedic knowledge of a model range.

Actually, can tuse difficult terrain regardless, maybe blockage, but what can you do.... someone would have to be really seedy or desperate to use that one over the larger one...

Oh noes Trenchie! I would totally be upset, wail, and gnash my teeth if you attempted to think about bring THAT into my FLGS. There would be blood on the sidewalk let me tell you. I'd make you eat that abomination against all that is good and holy and GW. Really GW was a completely different company back then, so you're a cheating little douche!!!

(Was that the reaction you were hoping for?)

BigToof wrote:Oh noes Trenchie! I would totally be upset, wail, and gnash my teeth if you attempted to think about bring THAT into my FLGS. There would be blood on the sidewalk let me tell you. I'd make you eat that abomination against all that is good and holy and GW. Really GW was a completely different company back then, so you're a cheating little douche!!!

(Was that the reaction you were hoping for?)

You forgot the death threats and mother insults

Edit: OH YEAH! POST # 666 BABY! SUCK IT!

someone would have to be really seedy or desperate to use that one over the larger one

Or just have an older one painted up and ready to play rather than take the time out from an already over-loaded painting schedule to work on the larger and much "busier" model.

Was that the reaction you were hoping for?)

Are you acusing me of trolling, or is that an attempt at humor, bigtoof?

TR

Hrmm...

On one hand, since I know that it's you (and you don't seem like, well, 'that guy') I'd definitely let you use it. No biggie.

On the other hand, it's a much smaller model.

But I can't say that I care too much so I'd just let you use the thing.

And really, the best way to solve the problem is to mount it on a tall base. Like, you mount in on top of that weird kind of cliff thing that comes with the new CSM Terminator Lord.

Something like that.

In the end, I won't care, but mounting it on a properly sized base (one that, when the RT Avatar is placed on it) is pretty much equal to the size of the new Avatar is really the easiest solution.

-Vlad

I've used that avatar in a tournament before and the only one who cried was the local DB who didn't bother to look where I placed my mini's and was surprised by the avatar in turn 3.

Vladsimpaler wrote:In the end, I won't care, but mounting it on a properly sized base (one that, when the RT Avatar is placed on it) is pretty much equal to the size of the new Avatar is really the easiest solution.

-Vlad

Actualy the easiest solution is to mount it on the base it came with. Then show the whining bastard why they make the rules in hardback form.

Also yay for trenchie, showing us it's ok to be an asshat since 1877

Gwar! wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:In the end, I won't care, but mounting it on a properly sized base (one that, when the RT Avatar is placed on it) is pretty much equal to the size of the new Avatar is really the easiest solution.

-Vlad

Actualy the easiest solution is to mount it on the base it came with. Then show the whining bastard why they make the rules in hardback form.

Also yay for trenchie, showing us it's ok to be an asshat since 1877

I should have clarified. I meant, it's the easiest solution without having to resort to violence.

I like Trenchie. He's the one who got me into the old-school stuff despite the fact that I started in 2007, whether he knows it or not!

Sure , use it. Just let your opponent know what it is (you know " this is an avatar") so you are not "mistakenly" thought as trying to cop a cheap advantage. The larger Model is the standard , and most people will expect to see an Avatar look like it. Otherwise it's a legal model.

Back in the day, friend would use it, in his Epic army.