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Ok this has gotten a bit out of hand here.

This is a perfectly legitimate model, albeit an older one. It is an Avatar, end of.

However it is perfectly legitimate concern that it is smaller than the current Avatar and newer players may not, at a glance, realise that it is an Avatar model. So I suggest 2 simple things to avoid possible confrontations.

1) Use the same size base as the current avatar, which I believe is 40mm. This avoids situations where the older smaller model may be able to hide in places where the newer one may not and allows the model to stand out appropriately for its status.

2) Make it totally clear during deployment that the model is an Avatar and will be playing that part during the game. Especially if your not play an old grizzled vet who is not familiar with the models history.

As long as you do that I see no issue.

The earlier poster (sorry I've forgotten who) who mentioned a player who used this model and didn’t mention that it was an Avatar is a prime example of poor sportsmanship. Using older models because they look cool and retro and are bit of GW history is fine. Using them because you can gain some kind of advantage over your opponent that using the newer model may not provide is a No No.

(and much more capable of taking advantage of cover, thus lending it more survivability...but that's another issue )

Ill assume that when you said that you were being sarcastic or mischievous. If not my sympathy for your intentions in using this model have gone out of the window.

1) Use the same size base as the current avatar, which I believe is 40mm. This avoids situations where the older smaller model may be able to hide in places where the newer one may not and allows the model to stand out appropriately for its status.

but then you are breaking rules by not using the origional base size

dietrich wrote:What about the older terminators - the RT era metal ones (which I think were a little smaller, or at least less dramatically posed than even the later plastics) or the original Space Hulk plastic ones? They're a lot easier to hide as well.

So, two questions:

1) Is it legal? Yes.
2) Is it sporting? Maybe, depends on the player.

You can take my old Space Hulk terminators, when you pry them from my COLD DEAD HANDS!!!

Hoo, those old Space Hulk Termies make my eyes bleed - and I have, like, 30 of 'em

I got in touch with a friend last night who has the Compilation book.

Avatar

M: 6 WS: D6+4 BS: D6+4 S: D4+4 T: D4+4 W: D4+3 I: D4+6 A: D4+1 LD: 10 Int: 10 CL: 10 WP: 10

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:If you (any of you) were playing "Little Avi" at a tournament, and I pull out an assembled Normal Avatar and asked you to use that for our game, would you?

And if no, why not?

Ok as promised here are the RT White Dwarf Compilation stats for the Eldar Avatar. I have tried to translate and shorten some of the convoluted language used in RT for his special rules so people who play current 40K may more easily understand.

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Points = 300
Movement = 6
Weapons skill = 1D6 +4
Ballistic skill = 1D6 +4
Strength = 1D4 +4
Toughness = 1D4 +4
Wounds = 1D4 +3
Initiative = 1D4 +6
Attacks = 1D4 +1
Leadership = 10
Intelligence = 10
Cool = 10
WillPower = 10

Special rules:

Armour save: is 2+ with 4+ invulnerable that can never be modified on 1D6 (this means that such weapons like a lascannon with a -6 to the save modifier doesn't affect the avatars 4+ save. He is indeed a pimp.)

Weapon: The Suin Daellae The Doom that Wails. The avatar gets his 1D4 +1 attacks at his 1D4 +4 strength. It confers a -6 save modifier so an enemy struck by it will always die unless it basically has an invulnerable save as well.

Psychology: He is immune to all psychology and causes fear in all living opponents. (In RT these types of psychology were based on the "cool" stat and checks were made with the same. A unit that failed its psychology check for fear cannot charge, if charged by something it fears it automatically routes, if attacked by a weapon it fears it must take a route test.)

Special immunities: Is immune to gas weapons because it doesn't breathe. Melta, plasma and flamer weapons are less effective against him. This means that those weapons do not apply their save modifiers to the avatar and the avatar will always save against these on a 2+

Powers: Avatar get 1D4 Warrior Powers (special eldar powers in the eldar list) The avatar is the only eldar who may have more than one warrior power.

Loss of the Avatar: If the avatar is somehow miraculously slain in battle, this is a dire portent and considered a great and devastating calamity to the eldar. Each eldar unit, vehicle and character must take an immediate route test.
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Given the random nature of the avatar from this edition, as has been said by a poster earlier he can take many forms, from man sized being to a full blown titan sized monster.

I am not sure what the comparison will prove towards using the older model in the newer editions, but there you go.

all in all, he kicked ass back then and still does (maybe less so now)
so the rules are just as strong for each model in the time they were made.
i still see nothing wrong with it.

Frazzled wrote:You can take my old Space Hulk terminators, when you pry them from my COLD DEAD HANDS!!!

That seems fair.

When I die you can have my Megadeth collection.

skrulnik wrote:Ghazkull's old model shouldn't be used as Ghaz because his equipment has changed.
That model is clearly not wearing mega-armor. (see Marneus Calgar)

Yeah, but the little avatar has the wrong Doom.

It's supposed to be a Wailing Doom, not a Doom that Wails. That's not WYSIWYG, that's not WYSIWYG at all!

JD21290 wrote:all in all, he kicked ass back then and still does (maybe less so now)
so the rules are just as strong for each model in the time they were made.
i still see nothing wrong with it.

Perhaps, but in direct comparison to the 2nd ed stats that you have posted, they just gave him the max stats for RT instead of making it variable.

In all fairness, it could indeed be argued that the RT avatar was somewhat weaker than editions that proceed it. Lack of total immunity to heatbased weapons, variable stats potentially making him not as strong, etc. But on the flip side he does get up to 4 warrior powers, and those aren't bad at all (basically they are very similar in effect to the exarch abilities we have now). So perhaps it balances out his variable stat weakness.

I really don't think it proves anything other than satisfying an academic curiosity.

Problem with having a man-sized Avatar is he steals thunder from the Phoenix Lords and Autarchs.

Probably a good reason to make him bigger.

As polonius said, its the player, not the model. So long as someone is upfront about it then who gives a rat's ass? And screening the avatar? hahaha, why? He has a 4++ already? And, you can screen the big version from HtH just as easily.

Again, putting the small avatar on a bigger base accomlishes nothing, it is still true LOS, he is still short and easily hidden behind terrain.

Anyway, this is dumb. I use the FW avatar because it is a sweet ass model, and I would not care one bit if someone used the little one.

Go ahead and use the RT Eldar Avatar as an Avatar.

However, fielding such a puny model *will* reflect poorly on your manhood...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Go ahead and use the RT Eldar Avatar as an Avatar.

However, fielding such a puny model *will* reflect poorly on your manhood...

Isn't it supposed to be the other way round? The bigger the model the smaller the attachment.

George Spiggott wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You can take my old Space Hulk terminators, when you pry them from my COLD DEAD HANDS!!!

That seems fair.

When I die you can have my Megadeth collection.

When all of you die I'm going to have so much useless crap. It will be a glorious day.

Hellfury wrote:Given the random nature of the avatar from this edition, as has been said by a poster earlier he can take many forms, from man sized being to a full blown titan sized monster.

I am not sure what the comparison will prove towards using the older model in the newer editions, but there you go.

To me this suggests that while the old model would have been appropriate a lot of the time as you could roll to have him be man or ogre sized, for which the old one would work, but the new version is "always big all the time", so the old model does not represent this well.

ShumaGorath wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You can take my old Space Hulk terminators, when you pry them from my COLD DEAD HANDS!!!

When I die you can have my Megadeth collection.

When all of you die I'm going to have so much useless crap. It will be a glorious day.

I'm changing my will to leave you my collection of John Byrne's Next Men comics.

A couple of points. First is that after dudeface (can't remember his name) posted that picture of the old Avatar comparing it to the current (won't say new!) Avatar, and a unit of Guardians... it made me realize that the old model's really not that much smaller. It still stands head and shoulders above the Guardians, and it looks pretty much just like the current model, and the argument that a player could model banners onto his guardians to block LoS, while true, is also pretty damned silly.

My second point is that people who are hiding their Avatar behind Guardians are doing it very, very wrong. The avatar always has a 4+ invulnerable save, so the benefits of cover are nonexistant. He's pretty much also the toughest unit in the book... so why are you making it harder for the opponent to target it instead of one of your more fragile units? It's just plain silly.

It's the same thing as people who go OMGCROUCHINGWRAITHLORDS!!!1!

Seriously... I like having tough heavy weapons platforms that can draw LoS over nearly anything...

Instead of having a knee-jerk reaction and thinking that smaller is always better... think about how the game actually works.

I think the thing is that the current avatar is pretty impossible to totally hide behind something, like a tank or building. With the old it's possible.

My guess is for HtH units shorter is better as you can hide them. Shooting units are better taller so they can get the shot. A mini carnifex would be brutal...a mini devastator squad would be less useful. A short wraithlord would still be better shorter as it is better in close combat. That would be where people have the problem.

Just saying...