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Warning: Rant incoming!

Here's what I cannot stand. GW is taking a hit with some of my local gamers more or less giving it up for Warmachine/Hordes. Some of the veterans are upset with the codexes and their "alleged" overpoweredness. For some of the locals it seems to be ruining their game/fun. They're shelving their Fantasy and 40k armies and getting all into PP games.

This is fine and I dont have a problem with it. PP games really arent my thing. Personally I think the fluff is really weak compared to GW storylines and GW models still seem superior to me. I've never been much into the "steampunk" style that is so prevalent in Warmachine and I just cannot get excited about the system. Models look great, game might be awesome, I'm just not interested. I'm just to involved with my 40k/Fantasy hobbies and the way the armybooks/codeii are coming out doesnt really bother me so much.

Where I have a problem is when the veterans start badmouthing 40k on our store forums and basically stating that if you're more into 40k than Warmachine/Hordes you need to "wake up" or that you're a "less evolved" gamer....which to me sounds so stupid I have trouble arguing with them about it.

I came back on one poster simply stating that his statement that 40k gamers are "Behind the curve" as being "just a little condescending". He replies with a borderline inflammetory remark and didnt even bother to read my points that I made. Those points were basically "this is a hobby...do what you LIKE to do, if thats PP more power to you. If its 40k, you're just as much a gamer as a PP fan. Basically, they're all great products in their own way's".

LINK----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6132&hl=

My FLGS forums are getting to the point now that if you post anything 40k AT ALL, there are a contingent of goofs on there that will simply come on and post anti-GW statements and other mess about how GW games suck...and the threads deteriorate. People interested in talking about 40k/fantasy have a hard time getting good conversation going, indeed, you think twice about even bothering to post online about it.

...and I wont even bother with the attitude toward a competetive tournament gamer there. Basically, you're some idiot that pays large amounts of cash to play a stupid game of 40k...you're slowed.

I came on with a thread telling my "Friends" how well I did at adepticon with my Gothic Fleet and my Grey Knights and the first response was "...and I beat an 8 year old at checkers while waiting to be seated at Stuckey's", needless to say, that was pretty annoying.

Link----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6130&hl=

It's getting to the point that I'm starting to really dislike even going to my FLGS. It's a shame since it was once such a great place to find 40k gamers. Now its turning into a bunch of friggin' haterz that enjoy talking smack to people.

Anyone else run into this type of thing?

In the immortal words of Triggerbaby:

"I heard that GW set a whole box of orphans on fire on the steps of a church.

Then Privateer Press came along and put out the fire with his own blood and then found homes for all the orphans and gave them all nega-cancer* for Christmas.



*nega-cancer is the highly expensive but helpful opposite of cancer. If cancer and nega-cancer collide, they cancel each other out in a shower of delicous candy."

PP is notably marred by it's rather rabid fanbois. You state anything even remotely negative, or even not entirely positive, and they pounce on you, seemingly telling others just so their dissenting voice drowns out your own, despite how clear it was the original statement was just your own opinion.

Now why they decide to rag on GW so much, I honestly don't know. They aren't cheaper, the game isn't a 40k equivalent (if anything, it's like a dumbed down Adeptus Titanicus*), and as you said, Steampunk is far from being everyones taste (I cannot stand it myself. Just seems so.....dull).

I've got nothing against PP. I do feel their fluff is somewhat lacking (at least what I've read of it) and that the games have a fundamental lack of variety to hold me, but I wouldn't say the games themselves are necessarily inferior to any other.

I used to play it for a short time. Collected a Khador force, kept getting my head kicked in off more experienced players (who refused to teach me the tricks. Tossers) and due to this, I found my interest waning very, very quickly. Plus, the Jacks are to my mind, less than inspiring after a while. I think it's the teeny tiny legs that stop me really liking them.

And I genuinely prefer Warhammer Fantasy. I like the models. I like the background. I like the mechanics. Add in I have a pool of around, oooh, 15 like minded gamers to play against, and the appeal is easy to see. Now if someone doesn't get on with Fantasy, or prefers another system, this makes neither of us cretins. We simply have different tastes.

But yeah, I run into it all too often.

*I say dumbed down, not because Hordemachine is lacking in detail, more that I have fond, head hurting memories of playing Adeptus Titanicus, and the fun had trying to keep track of the damage done etc. And I feel it's an accurate comparrison because Adeptus Titanicus was mainly about the big stuff, with the little stuff having a mainly support role.

Please dont destroy my home boards btw....I actually like the owner.

Looks like your forums need a moderator.. or at least a moderator willing to slap a few people around. looking at quite a few posts and then looking at the forum rules, it appears to me that too many 'old' school posters have forgotten them and the 'new' posters don't care about them..

meh, either get a thicker skin or firebomb the place..

two_heads_talking wrote:Looks like your forums need a moderator.. or at least a moderator willing to slap a few people around. looking at quite a few posts and then looking at the forum rules, it appears to me that too many 'old' school posters have forgotten them and the 'new' posters don't care about them..

meh, either get a thicker skin or firebomb the place..

Heh, I AM one of the mods...but if I moderate you, it's because my agruement is so weak or I'm just being a bully. Funny how that works.

I checked out that "warhammer is checkers and 40k is chess" post and decided not to read any further.

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!

Here's what I cannot stand. GW is taking a hit with some of my local gamers more or less giving it up for Warmachine/Hordes. Some of the veterans are upset with the codexes and their "alleged" overpoweredness. For some of the locals it seems to be ruining their game/fun. They're shelving their Fantasy and 40k armies and getting all into PP games.

This is fine and I dont have a problem with it. PP games really arent my thing. Personally I think the fluff is really weak compared to GW storylines and GW models still seem superior to me. I've never been much into the "steampunk" style that is so prevalent in Warmachine and I just cannot get excited about the system. Models look great, game might be awesome, I'm just not interested. I'm just to involved with my 40k/Fantasy hobbies and the way the armybooks/codeii are coming out doesnt really bother me so much.

Where I have a problem is when the veterans start badmouthing 40k on our store forums and basically stating that if you're more into 40k than Warmachine/Hordes you need to "wake up" or that you're a "less evolved" gamer....which to me sounds so stupid I have trouble arguing with them about it.

I came back on one poster simply stating that his statement that 40k gamers are "Behind the curve" as being "just a little condescending". He replies with a borderline inflammetory remark and didnt even bother to read my points that I made. Those points were basically "this is a hobby...do what you LIKE to do, if thats PP more power to you. If its 40k, you're just as much a gamer as a PP fan. Basically, they're all great products in their own way's".

LINK----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6132&hl=

My FLGS forums are getting to the point now that if you post anything 40k AT ALL, there are a contingent of goofs on there that will simply come on and post anti-GW statements and other mess about how GW games suck...and the threads deteriorate. People interested in talking about 40k/fantasy have a hard time getting good conversation going, indeed, you think twice about even bothering to post online about it.

...and I wont even bother with the attitude toward a competetive tournament gamer there. Basically, you're some idiot that pays large amounts of cash to play a stupid game of 40k...you're slowed.

I came on with a thread telling my "Friends" how well I did at adepticon with my Gothic Fleet and my Grey Knights and the first response was "...and I beat an 8 year old at checkers while waiting to be seated at Stuckey's", needless to say, that was pretty annoying.

Link----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6130&hl=

It's getting to the point that I'm starting to really dislike even going to my FLGS. It's a shame since it was once such a great place to find 40k gamers. Now its turning into a bunch of friggin' haterz that enjoy talking smack to people.

Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Son, America never got anywhere being polite. We did it with guns and beer. When you stick your hand into a mess of goo that was your best mini's face, you'll know what to do.

I think you should tell Tony to stop hurting your feelings and don't cry when someone says "GW" without following it with, "is the bestest ever!"

Just for the record there are like 100 GW games played a week at that store and maybe 2 PP ones.

But seriously....after playing PP games you have to start wondering why you even bother playing that GW trash at all!



As someone who played 40k, switched to WHFB, and now mainly enjoy's PP and only plays WHFB because I like the people and the local tournament stuff that goes on....yeah it's hard not to rag on GW. But unlike some other local people who went through the same thing - I don't harp on people playing their games.

Bat Manuel wrote:I think you should tell Tony to stop hurting your feelings and don't cry when someone says "GW" without following it with, "is the bestest ever!"

Just for the record there are like 100 GW games played a week at that store and maybe 2 PP ones.

Yea Mike, but when was the last time you could feel safe posting about GW stuff on our forums....I dont remember a time.


...and gimmie a break, all you guys DO nowadays is trash GW. Also, to be fair, I only said something when it was implied that GW players are some sort of "low foreheads".

It's like people listening to different genres of music... one person may like rock while the other likes rap (I myself like drum and bass... if anyone knows what that is *looks at the Brits ). It's the same with Wargames. I havent tried Warmachine yet but am considering giving it a shot. My main reason I havent yet is A) I dont have anyone to play against and B) I love the fluff of 40k. Perhaps too much, haha.

What I'm getting at is I think it's stupid for people to make those comments about other gamers based on which game they play (sure a bit of friendly rivalry is fine but theres always a line to be crossed). And quite frankly, if someone was doing that to me and I told them to stop several times and they kept persisting, I'd probably knock them out

Why do you have to feel safe to post?

Why do you feel the need to justify your love of a game to people who obviously don't agree.

My advice, screw your FLGS. It's his board and ultimately his responsibility. If that is no longer an environment you feel comfortable participating in, then politely tell the lazy ass manager that he needs to reign things in. Not everyone has to agree, and politeness isn't even a requirement. However, you, as a consumer, can and will take your cash elsewhere.

LOUD NOISES!

Please note I say this as a Warhammer 40k\Fantasy player

The only reason I feel PP has a right to pick on GW products is for the most part GW is static in its whole approach to the game. I was mildly interested in Warmachine and Hordes, so i read through the books. Low and behold they have an evolving storyline. 40k may be richer in fluff now, but GW has done very little to add to it in the last decade or so. Codexes don't really add anything, and the fluff from them has become smaller and smaller each passing year. You would have to read through Black Library books to get any depth, but frankly they don't evolve the whole Warhammer universe at all.

GW has superior models, and better old fluff...that is it. The rules are The game itself is stuck in time, where nothing significant happens. PP does not constantly go back to one army (Space marines: either spiky or no spikes...they are all the same.) to change the rules for temporary better sales while they leave the others to wallow.

It has been said many times and i agree...GW is a model company who has a game for them. PP is a game company who makes models. If there were ever an unholy merger where PP made rules and GW made the models...well i think the sheer awesomeness that would come out would instantly destroy reality....

Yeah, I see similar hate on the FoW main forum. They've got a thread going on and on about GW's past sins and how FoW is totally not like that.

I dunno, I like both systems (and PP too!). I can see where they're coming from, GW's definitely made some mistakes, but then so has PP, and BattleFront. At the end of the day they're all companies, they're all trying to make a buck. If you don't like it vote with your dollars and play something else.

What I don't get is all the anger and hatred. It's even stranger on sites that are supposedly pro GW. I understand it on the other company sites, even if it is immature. If you don't like the game, or the company, why are you here?

I got sick of GW at one point, and started playing Warmachine. Had a blast. I'd point out some of the reasons why I left if anybody asked, but usually I'd point out all the positives about Warmachine. Hanging around a GW site or the 40K section of a store forum making negative comments and being a pain is pretty sad and immature.

Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:PP is notably marred by it's rather rabid fanbois. You state anything even remotely negative, or even not entirely positive, and they pounce on you, seemingly telling others just so their dissenting voice drowns out your own, despite how clear it was the original statement was just your own opinion.

This is all pretty ironic considering the fact that the PP forums are in a horrible state of uproar following the release of the WM2 documents. Pronouncements of "DOOOM!" are everywhere.

anticitizen013 wrote:It's like people listening to different genres of music... one person may like rock while the other likes rap (I myself like drum and bass... if anyone knows what that is *looks at the Brits ). It's the same with Wargames. I havent tried Warmachine yet but am considering giving it a shot. My main reason I havent yet is A) I dont have anyone to play against and B) I love the fluff of 40k. Perhaps too much, haha.

What I'm getting at is I think it's stupid for people to make those comments about other gamers based on which game they play (sure a bit of friendly rivalry is fine but theres always a line to be crossed). And quite frankly, if someone was doing that to me and I told them to stop several times and they kept persisting, I'd probably knock them out

QFT!

See, against some kinds of fanboys, only two things work. Physical violence, and beating them at their own game. So you can use your mod powers to virtually slap the crap out of them, or do it in real life. Like any kind of real life bully, they'll stop it after a while. If they make irelevant posts in a thread about GW, delete them. Warn them you'll delete them if they do it again through a PM. If they grouse about freedom of speech or whatever, just link them to the forum rules, and add something like, 'whoever said this place was a democracy? It's got rules, same as real life. Cry mich ein river. schvuncesticker, and deal with it'. They might whine alittle, but if the admin is a friend of yours, there's precious little they can do, except leave to set up shop elsewhere. And I'm sure you'd be heartbroken if that happened.

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!

Here's what I cannot stand. GW is taking a hit with some of my local gamers more or less giving it up for Warmachine/Hordes. Some of the veterans are upset with the codexes and their "alleged" overpoweredness. For some of the locals it seems to be ruining their game/fun. They're shelving their Fantasy and 40k armies and getting all into PP games.

This is fine and I dont have a problem with it. PP games really arent my thing. Personally I think the fluff is really weak compared to GW storylines and GW models still seem superior to me. I've never been much into the "steampunk" style that is so prevalent in Warmachine and I just cannot get excited about the system. Models look great, game might be awesome, I'm just not interested. I'm just to involved with my 40k/Fantasy hobbies and the way the armybooks/codeii are coming out doesnt really bother me so much.

Where I have a problem is when the veterans start badmouthing 40k on our store forums and basically stating that if you're more into 40k than Warmachine/Hordes you need to "wake up" or that you're a "less evolved" gamer....which to me sounds so stupid I have trouble arguing with them about it.

I came back on one poster simply stating that his statement that 40k gamers are "Behind the curve" as being "just a little condescending". He replies with a borderline inflammetory remark and didnt even bother to read my points that I made. Those points were basically "this is a hobby...do what you LIKE to do, if thats PP more power to you. If its 40k, you're just as much a gamer as a PP fan. Basically, they're all great products in their own way's".

LINK----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6132&hl=

My FLGS forums are getting to the point now that if you post anything 40k AT ALL, there are a contingent of goofs on there that will simply come on and post anti-GW statements and other mess about how GW games suck...and the threads deteriorate. People interested in talking about 40k/fantasy have a hard time getting good conversation going, indeed, you think twice about even bothering to post online about it.

...and I wont even bother with the attitude toward a competetive tournament gamer there. Basically, you're some idiot that pays large amounts of cash to play a stupid game of 40k...you're slowed.

I came on with a thread telling my "Friends" how well I did at adepticon with my Gothic Fleet and my Grey Knights and the first response was "...and I beat an 8 year old at checkers while waiting to be seated at Stuckey's", needless to say, that was pretty annoying.

Link----> http://www.atlantis-comics.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6130&hl=

It's getting to the point that I'm starting to really dislike even going to my FLGS. It's a shame since it was once such a great place to find 40k gamers. Now its turning into a bunch of friggin' haterz that enjoy talking smack to people.

Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Links not working for me.

Those boards are, to be quite honest, a pitiful excuse for human interaction. You want to let your kids know how adults interact? I'm an adult too, and none of the people I talk to, from my local gaming store to my colleagues at work and my own friends, would talk to each other that way. Why? Not because it's rude, or could hurt someone's feelings. An adult shouldn't be phased by comments like that. We wouldn't talk to each other that way because it's ignorant. There is an old expression that goes something along the lines of 'Those who have to communicate with explitives and foul language usually do so because they are too foolish to know of any other way'.

If that upsets you, then you should take a look at yourself and think where it is coming from, and maybe even re-evaluate your own high and mighty ego.

If you want to talk like a truck driver in front of adolescents, then go for it. If that's what makes you feel like a man.

- this is not directed at you deadshane, moreso I am just trying to express some feelings I have about youth today. I'm in education, and more and more we see kids without role models and those who they look to for advice are underachievers themselves. Seeing that attitude run so rampant and unregulated really frustrates me.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Collected a Khador force, kept getting my head kicked in off more experienced players (who refused to teach me the tricks. Tossers) and due to this, I found my interest waning very, very quickly.

I was under the impression that Wargaming is more of a "self study" pursuit.

@Deadshane: GW makes it easy for PP fanbois to get on their case - mostly because of three things.

1. GW's playtesting and quality assurance and rules support (FAQs and errata) is a travesty.
2. The balance of powerlevels within GW's core products suffer from wild power swings due to their update model. Time between army updates is completely arbitrary - Sub armies such as Black Templars have their own codex, but full armies such as DE (and until recently, Orks) only recieved minor errata since 3rd edition.
3. GW's ruleset contains some abstractions and simplifications which artificially limit tactical options - i.e. no shooting into HTH, uniform movement rates, unused LD statistic etc. - This last point is arguable, but the 40k ruleset does alow far fewer options than WM's ruleset when it comes to models targeting, movement, special actions etc. This also pushes a bit into the lack of synergy inherent within GW's ruleset - where few models provide synergy - this leads to the perception that while the cost / model investment is similar, PP's rulest gives you more mileage for your model purchase. (assuming that you can find opponents!) I'm currently building a new 1500 Space Marine army. Even liberally using Black Reach parts (2 sets), this army will cost me $600 Cdn - in an ironic twist, I'm buildng this army because I can't find any WM opponents!!! This army can only be used "one way". WM's warcaster system alows for much more flexibility. I think that this PERCEPTION in value also hurts GW, even though you will easily run the same costs buying Warmachine models.

If I slag GW, it is only because of the above. GW does have fantastic models, and the price / model cost is often less than Privateer Press. The background is second to none, but GW's poor rules support is the deal breaker for me.

malfred wrote:Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

yea baby. Thats classic, Malf.

Frazzled wrote:

malfred wrote:Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

yea baby. Thats classic, Malf.

Really? I've always preferred the more direct approach of simply dropping your trousers, and then delcaring 'One way or another, matter settled'

malfred wrote:Next time they start, hand them a ruler and the bathroom key.

"What's this?"

"So you can measure yourself where we don't have to watch."

some of those posters might need a micrometer..

@karmaiko.. I agree 110% with your assessment.

Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

Yes, I get it. Warmachine's SUPER! Hordes is AWESOME!
Those comparisons between the rules and model counts?
Yeah. That's kinda silly.
The games of Warmachine that we ran, had on average, a 30 model count on a single side, tops.
And those were for *big* games.

But honestly, I can see both sides of the fence. I can understand why people are so rabid in defending their game. But it's stupid to get up in arms about it. If you want to diss a company that opened up the way for all these new model games?
By all means, go for it. I'd love to see the crap put out by some companies if GW hadn't set some form of standard.

I got into warmachine pretty heavily when it first came out. A lot of the players that played it when it first came out were embittered GW players. Maybe they are still there. But I stopped playing the game due to not being able to get a game anywhere.

I do remember one of the local WM players calling GW "The Great Satan" at one point.


GG

Kanluwen wrote:Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

That's a strawman arguement. Yes, GW has a much larger library of material to maintain, but that does not excuse their terrible excuses for FAQs and errata.

Privateer's problems lie in other areas - as it is becoming obvious that the units being added are outgrowing the framework of the initial design.

generalgrog wrote:I do remember one of the local WM players calling GW "The Great Satan" at one point.

Was it by any chance during 4th edition?

IMO, 4th in my mind, has been the gakkiest edition to date. 5th is a huge improvement. I still do not understand why they do not provide a "black book" soft reset for all races at the start of every edition. It would fix a lot of problems, such as Landraiders, identically named weapons having different stats in different codecies, orphan armies from 2 editions ago, and basically alow a rebalancing of points to counter shifts introduced by introduction of new core mechanics such as running.

-Sigh-

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!...Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Deadshane, so PP players are ragging on GW on a home board of yours, Really? I have never been to your forums, don't know any of the people you're talking about, however I have played both games, and I have to say that is completely laughable. Perhaps they (people on the boards you are talking about) say that because PP is more responsive to the player base (FAQ etc.) that might be a case, but comparing the games....

?

Warmachine is the worst parts of 40k, every game I have ever seen played comes down to who has the better magic combo! Every single army/model is based on unique special powers rules exceptions. It is like playing 40k combat patrol with only Dreadnoughts and HQ choices and no mission. In fact, I daresay, in play it was almost a direct lift from the old CMG with the War Golems! All the games I ever played were decided when a warcaster died, and every time it was because of some UBER combo of special powers. Then the creators of the game went on to make bigger and bigger golems to the point of audacity. Every army has one pattern, every time, and NO Missions, boaring.

Not a lot of set up and counter charge tactics in using your "special power" the entire game is based on engineering combos, it's played on the paper before the minis are ever set up...

Furthermore it's a game for people who can't afford or paint an entire GW army...

Beyond the flame like rant, here's a list of points where warhammer has it all over PP (assuming you have the cash and discipline for GW army creation):

Missions,
Troops,
Mini Range Options,
Army Variety,
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,
National Tournaments/Events,
Size of player base,
Vehicles,
Plastic Models,
Game Scale (bigger is better),
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models
Fiction (published novels and fluff),
Age (warhammer is how much older?)

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer. Of course the underdogs need to re-assure eachother.

Please quote this in your other forum as some points someone else made if you'd like!