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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

True enough. Though if I remember what Malfred said in another thread, their beta is less about the stats and abilities of the units in the game, and more about the mechanics, and making sure there are no contradictions, wording is tightened up suitably etc.

Which even still, is light years ahead of GW checking mechanics and contradictions. Half GW's problems would go away if they would.

And in my own opinion, I can fully see why they are less fussed about the unit based feedback. Just have a shufty around the Interwebs at homebrewed rules for Codecies etc, and 'redux' lists. Usually under pointed, overpowered, and just soulless. Look what happened when GW tried VDR, TDR and the custom gribblies in the old Tyranid Codex. Point largely missed by the denziens of the interweb, who instead decided to simply number crunch to find the most 'win' units etc, and never bothered using the other bits. This clearly shows that (GW ones at least) Gamers are not to be trusted with any kind of open source materials!

Just GW gamers? Bah, you havent seen PP players or RPGer's go at it and do the same thing. Thats a universal thing....

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And in my own opinion, I can fully see why they are less fussed about the unit based feedback. Just have a shufty around the Interwebs at homebrewed rules for Codecies etc, and 'redux' lists. Usually under pointed, overpowered, and just soulless. Look what happened when GW tried VDR, TDR and the custom gribblies in the old Tyranid Codex. Point largely missed by the denziens of the interweb, who instead decided to simply number crunch to find the most 'win' units etc, and never bothered using the other bits. This clearly shows that (GW ones at least) Gamers are not to be trusted with any kind of open source materials!

GW really are in a loose/loose situation here. If GW present a list or rule set that's quite free and open and relies on the common sense, maturity and imagination of the players to theme their list accordingly without being micro manged by the list, then it gets abused. Gamers then complain and claim its all GW's fault for allowing these cheesy lists.

So GW release a much tighter list with restrictions heavily in place. Cue more web based moaning that GW is spoon feeding the gamers or sapping the soul of the list.

So GW goes back to being more open and the cycle continues until we all die.

Sorry to sound like and old Fart here but when I started Gaming I used to play allot of Historical games down at a club. We didn't used points based lists, yep that right none at all. We chose a scenario and worked out forces accordingly in advance, and we did so in accordance with the background of the period/campaign/scenario. There were no complaints of balance or cheesiness. People took 80% line troops because that's what armies historically consisted of. No one would have dreamed of using a force consisting entirely of Tiger tanks or French Imperial Guard It just didn't occur to us.

In list based games however respect for the natural composition of armies just goes out of the window to be replaced with 'what will the list allow me to get away with'. Sad as it sounds I think 'list based' gaming really has been a double edged sword for table top gaming in general. Not just GW.

Put it this way. If the battle of Waterloo were a game of Warhammer it would likely consist of 2 units of Line Infantry with the rest of the points maxed out on Old Guard Grenadiers, 12 Pdr Cannons and Currasiers vs 2 units of Line Infantry with the rest of the points maxed out on Riflemen, Coldstream Guard Units and Scots Grey Cavalry.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And yet, PP did an absolutely horrendous job working with my FLGS.
They did hardly anything to make sure we kept stock, they did hardly anything to make sure that we got the rulebooks on time, nothing.

And the times I bought any of the warjack starter sets?
Horribly miscast, and they would not replace it for free like GW does for me.

So please, keep calling me a GW fanboy.
I also do Secrets of the Third Reich and Flames of War.
I've also had nothing but good experiences from those three companies.
That's why I actually buy stuff from them, and enjoy their games.
It's also why Privateer hasn't gotten any of my money since Hordes was released.
Now, maybe if you actually gave me some better things than "GW is the realm of FAIL", I'd take you a tad more seriously.

Your a GW fanboy. *shrug* any other questions.

Without more information on your FLAGS situation, its probably your FLAGS fault, not PP. My nots so friendly LAGS doesnt keep any in stock, but thats their fault, not PP.

You must have not been doing anything right on the miscast, because when I have had a miscast or worse, missing pieces, following the simple instructions got parts mailed out on several occassions.


AS for that last line, are you serious? Do I really need to list the various GW failings from FAQ's to "good enough" rules to the lag of years between codexi, to not allowing online sales-only in the US though, and the rest thats been discussed at length(prince increases at nauseum arent even worth bringing up).

Fanboy indeed sound accurate if you dont remember any of the above discussions. PP isnt perfect by any stretch: I do think warmachine needs an overhaul...but I'm leery of Hordes getting one as its still fairly new.

Are you really going to bring up the discontinuation of online sales only stores into this? Really?
Gee, I wonder why they would have done that. Maybe the massive amounts of stores that were basing themselves in the US and selling things dirt-cheap with no overhead, compared to FLGSes that stocked and sold at list price with having to maintain an actual brick+mortar storefront.
The price increases? Yeah, they're annoying. But GW also puts out far, far more product a year than PP does. They also have done a fairly good job making sure that most codex options are fairly accessible, either through them or FW.
How long did it take for the Cygnarian Rangers to come out for Superiority?

Yeah, GW can futz it up. But every time they'd have a chance to screw the pooch when I've dealt with them, they've come out ahead.
I gave Privateer a chance. And they royally screwed it.

Both systems are fine, I don't really see the problem

If you don't like the system, that's great. I love both PP and GW.

Cryonicleech wrote:Both systems are fine, I don't really see the problem

If you don't like the system, that's great. I love both PP and GW.

'
Great just what we need....a pacifist.

* yawns & falls back into a thread induced stupor *

Coming to a thread near you soon: Oranges and apples. Which are better? YOU DECIDE!

Greebynog wrote:Coming to a thread near you soon: Oranges and apples. Which are better? YOU DECIDE!

Bananas.

Don your asbestos suits early, boys an girls!

Seeing this thread i had no idea if OP was just trolling or he was actually seriouse so i never bothered to say anything.

But ya.... both sides will praise what they play and badmouth the other. Both guilty , you are all the same!

So yes oranges and apples, this thread is pointless.

... honest to god, as im typing right now, i can hear the raccoon calling outside my window.

... honest to god, as im typing right now, i can hear the raccoon calling outside my window.

LunaHound, I think you need to lay off the hash a bit.

You're all anime fan losers. This topic needs to die. This is manufactured drama and it's absolutely meaningless.

Was that harsh enough? The apples and oranges thing didn't seem to kill it.

Ouchies, ShumaGorath just summed it up!

Kanluwen wrote:

Are you really going to bring up the discontinuation of online sales only stores into this? Really?
Gee, I wonder why they would have done that. Maybe the massive amounts of stores that were basing themselves in the US and selling things dirt-cheap with no overhead, compared to FLGSes that stocked and sold at list price with having to maintain an actual brick+mortar storefront.

If thats the case, why only the US then? You realize I STILl can order online right? Why on earth would I want to support a FLAGS? They suck ass around here, and not worth pissing on if the building was on fire. GW can do what it wants, but they took a hit for it that they had to recover from.

SO yes, yes I am. It pissed on the customer base. Good luck with that.

The price increases? Yeah, they're annoying. But GW also puts out far, far more product a year than PP does. They also have done a fairly good job making sure that most codex options are fairly accessible, either through them or FW.
How long did it take for the Cygnarian Rangers to come out for Superiority?

Quite a while actually. But if you actually PAID attention to PP, they have a roll out for models when their book hits, and some models? If their at the end of the roll out take a while. I know I've waited a long while for certain merc or skorne units.

Accessable? Please. Some units took forever to get models with GW. Further, I seem to notice that GW is taking up the PP roll out model instead of folks standing around for years with nothing for their armies....

What if Space Marines fought Khador FTW? What would all the PP fanbois say then?

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:What if Space Marines fought Khador FTW? What would all the PP fanbois say then?

G

As much as I like Warmachine, Fluff Space Marines vs. Khador would most likely
result in a Khador loss. I mean, the Iron Kingdoms doesn't really have the capacity
to deal with an orbital bombardment.

I'd say the weight of one of Khador's Juggernauts could easily crush a plastic marine and maybe even collapse a dreadnought.

stonefox wrote:I'd say the weight of one of Khador's Juggernauts could easily crush a plastic marine and maybe even collapse a dreadnought.

Only if that Khador Jug was properly pinned, otherwise, it would just crumble on the table before it could do anything.. Oh, and it's needs to be properly balanced so it doesn't tip over .....

Green Blow Fly wrote:What if Space Marines fought Khador FTW? What would all the PP fanbois say then?

I will answer this for LOLZ

Space Marines would be hitting Khador models on a 3+ in shooting, and fare much worse in melee as most Khador models have equivalent WS, MAT4+, but as they have no toughness stat, you'd be forced to treat them as vehicles. Even Winterguard have ARM13, meaning that you'd need at least S8 to damage them. Anything with ARM 20 or higher is invincible to the highest possible armor penetration roll in the marine army (Multimelta+ ). OTOH, Khador models would auto-hit, as Space Marine models don't have a defense stat. Pretty much every weapon would easily exceed the Space Marine's ARM3 (and cause instant-kill), but the Marines would then get a 3+ save and/or any applicable invulnerable save.

two_heads_talking wrote:

stonefox wrote:I'd say the weight of one of Khador's Juggernauts could easily crush a plastic marine and maybe even collapse a dreadnought.

Only if that Khador Jug was properly pinned, otherwise, it would just crumble on the table before it could do anything.. Oh, and it's needs to be properly balanced so it doesn't tip over .....

See it's like a real battle with weaknesses and everything! I wonder why some people even bother to play with rules since you could effectively do the same thing by hurling them at each other.

stonefox wrote:
See it's like a real battle with weaknesses and everything! I wonder why some people even bother to play with rules since you could effectively do the same thing by hurling them at each other.

I tend to agree.. There used to be a Staff member at the Springfield store who was notorious for throwing stuff if he started losing..

ShumaGorath wrote:You're all anime fan losers. This topic needs to die. This is manufactured drama and it's absolutely meaningless.

I agree with this. It's essentially a fight where both sides compete on who gets to make a bigger and more obnoxious ass of themselves. And guess what, this thread is hull of "winners".

stonefox wrote:
See it's like a real battle with weaknesses and everything! I wonder why some people even bother to play with rules since you could effectively do the same thing by hurling them at each other.

Hey don't be knocking Apocalypse.

ShumaGorath wrote:You're all anime fan losers.

Was that harsh enough?

Probably not, but it's getting pretty offensive.

Take that all you wool coated smooth talkers !!!

G

Osbad...is that piccie not from the old NikNak adverts?