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keezus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Privateer's playtesting and QA is no better, imo.
You also cannot compare a company that has maintained 3 or more games for how many years? Versus a company that has run 2 games for barely 5-6 years.

That's a strawman arguement. Yes, GW has a much larger library of material to maintain, but that does not excuse their terrible excuses for FAQs and errata.

Privateer's problems lie in other areas - as it is becoming obvious that the units being added are outgrowing the framework of the initial design.

Games Workshop, while they may not have the omgosh most amazing FAQs and errata, they also have taken the time to flesh out every army, and even some minor armies. They've also given us some pretty nice campaign materials to work with, and Forge World does some pretty nice support for it.

Privateer's advancing storyline method kind of defeats the idea of having a miniatures game. If they keep it up, they might end up like White Wolf, what with reaching an "end".

But you're right. GW does need better FAQs and errata. Or people can do like they've always done, and use house rules for those glaring bits.

@ Augustus: You are certainly entitled to your opinion!

@ Kanluwen: I agree with your point about the advancing storyline. I am holding out hope that MKII WM will refocus the game and fix many of the accumulated flaws. GW's biggest strengths are its huge IP base and established player base. But on that note, having a huge player base is precisely the reason that GW needs to issue official errata - as groups in different areas will often develop different interpretations where rules are ambiguous.

Ok why are we getting so Warseer and heres me thinking you were all friendsly sorts.

On the whole GW/PP thing yea hmmmmm *shrugs* each to themselves I suppose I have friends who play GW I have friends who play PP but we dont all go Kirk Vs Spock over it.

So like what you want I dont have a oppinion

Augustus wrote:Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.

That was the most pitiful frelling pile of grox-manure I've ever seen posted on this forum in defense of Games Workshop products. You should feel a tremendous sense of accomplishment.

Augustus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!...Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Deadshane, so PP players are ragging on GW on a home board of yours, Really? I have never been to your forums, don't know any of the people you're talking about, however I have played both games, and I have to say that is completely laughable. Perhaps they (people on the boards you are talking about) say that because PP is more responsive to the player base (FAQ etc.) that might be a case, but comparing the games....

?

Warmachine is the worst parts of 40k, every game I have ever seen played comes down to who has the better magic combo! Every single army/model is based on unique special powers rules exceptions. It is like playing 40k combat patrol with only Dreadnoughts and HQ choices and no mission. In fact, I daresay, in play it was almost a direct lift from the old CMG with the War Golems! All the games I ever played were decided when a warcaster died, and every time it was because of some UBER combo of special powers. Then the creators of the game went on to make bigger and bigger golems to the point of audacity. Every army has one pattern, every time, and NO Missions, boaring.

Not a lot of set up and counter charge tactics in using your "special power" the entire game is based on engineering combos, it's played on the paper before the minis are ever set up...

Furthermore it's a game for people who can't afford or paint an entire GW army...

Beyond the flame like rant, here's a list of points where warhammer has it all over PP (assuming you have the cash and discipline for GW army creation):

Missions,
Troops,
Mini Range Options,
Army Variety,
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,
National Tournaments/Events,
Size of player base,
Vehicles,
Plastic Models,
Game Scale (bigger is better),
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models
Fiction (published novels and fluff),
Age (warhammer is how much older?)

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer. Of course the underdogs need to re-assure eachother.

Please quote this in your other forum as some points someone else made if you'd like!

I suspect your point is well enough taken, the OP of the original thread has already posted in this one. (Bat Manuel) I'd like to see what he has to say about your points.

Yes I sense everyone is getting silly.

It's great to know that Dakka has stopped creating its own forum drama to the point that other worthless forum drama has to get dragged onto ours to see if it's interesting enough to get dramatic over.

Why do you care if the people at your store make fun of your future toy game? Aren't you winning in real life? If your "Gamers" are anything like the ones over here, they weigh 300 pounds, use large words to justify their lack of a "real job", and score on date night with their right hand to catgirl pr0n.

I don't give a flying goddamn about any of my local gaming store's peanut gallery of half-formed opinions from quasi-literate quasi-college dumbfuckistanis.

Know how to combat it? Be the dick that people look to because you're winning in Real Life. Give them the option of joining the mouth breathing stereotypical nerd-herd or forming their own opinion and enjoying a hobby.

Get the mouth breathers into a debate, force them to form an opinion, and then shoot them down and mock them when it's obviously BS. And if you can't do that, then you're not the guy to fix it.

Deadshane, you're getting overworked over a few fanboys who live by a page number. If anything, the whole "page 5" explains a lot about their mindset when it comes to miniature gaming. That's personally why I gave up on the game system. I prefer to have fun when I play a miniature game.

Nerd flamewars are the virtual equivalent of limpwristed slap-fights.

Indeed I agree with Sourclams and thats not being sarcastic. I believe that what he saids is sense

If you have a oppinion by all means express it but then take a breather and actually read what people post back form a debate not a playground fight!.

Or like me compromise its not the end of the world.For many of us it maybe is I understand that many of you (and this is not meant in a mocking way) used Warhammer to get through the difficulties in life and that you feel that you owe GW your undying loyality but dont go all huffy and hypocritical for what at the end of the day is just a difference of oppinion.

Plus the scathing personal insults............why?

PP products are hardly beacons of balance and good design philosophy. You're friends are just catty bitches that need to lose their sacred cow of the month and just admit that all little painted men games are a stupid and childish hobbies, and being a fanboy of one versus others just makes them Dorito encrusted neckbeard nerds who can only clearly state their feelings about the opposite sex when their cheeto stained fingers slap their WoW macro keyboards in their mothers basements.

Warmachine may very well paint themselves into a corner unless they come up with something for the armies other than warcasters, warjacks and troops. That's one of the reasons why I stick with 40K despite my growing hate for where the rules are going, because they have tanks and aircraft and other such stuff for variety. Also, I have spent too many years collecting 40K stuff to start all over now.
Oh, and if the content of this thread continues the way it is, I may very well go back to Warseer, until I get banned which probably won't be very much longer.

What a bunch of douche bags.

Jesus, are you kidding me? We all play with toy soldiers, we are all dorks. We need to unite, not fight each other.

Any game is complex when played by two people of a high skill level. And any game can be a joke when played by people of a low sill level.

It reminds me of people who try and convince new comers to 40K to not play space marines. I always tell them to pipe down. So what if there are lots of Marine players. The point is that people should play what they want to, that is what the hobby is about. Being negative only reflects negatively on you.

I would want to tell them to take there big metal models and shove them right up their asses, but that would just make it worse.

Be a bigger man, ignore them and just keep playing and enjoying your game. If you stay positive, other people will want to game with you and leave the old women's knitting club to themselves.

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine may very well paint themselves into a corner unless they come up with something for the armies other than warcasters, warjacks and troops. That's one of the reasons why I stick with 40K despite my growing hate for where the rules are going, because they have tanks and aircraft and other such stuff for variety. Also, I have spent too many years collecting 40K stuff to start all over now.
Oh, and if the content of this thread continues the way it is, I may very well go back to Warseer, until I get banned which probably won't be very much longer.

YES! I got booted off Warseer cause I grew a brain and decided I couldnt take their Fanboy high and mighty uptheirassness so dont be afriad that they will boot you just means one less hobbyist takes their gak!

I find it interesting that PP are now taking a path similar to GW.

Rejigging the rules, and monkeying around with points values. I understand they will also be releasing seperate books for each army (Faction as a word here is inaccurate. Catholicism is a 'faction' of Christianity. What we have here are different countries and their armed forces clashing!). Even apparently going semi plastic in places.

Given their rather bold status when they first started off (when Page 5 was pretty much an 'we;re not GW nor anything like them willy wave) I find it interesting that they are having to go much the same way.

I even postulated this a couple of years ago on Warseer, simply stating given the games nature, it had a definite ceiling. Thus, over time, peoples collections will naturally grow beyond this gaming glass ceiling, at which point they might consider a swift rescaling.

Interesting to note however that, like GW, they appear to be missing the trick of keeping the previous rule set available for purchase, if only lightly supported. Shame really, but I dare say there are logistical constraints here.

Well I get much the same gak where I live,people telling me not to waste time on silly toy men or genrally getting up in my face for doing anything I love,I am also suprised at the number of GW to PP converts and have on the net also encountered their fanboy antics.I was sadened after being kick off a site or 2 because I told em to bugger off,after they started an argument with me for a post stating that I favoured GW over PP.I find that people are genrally like sheep they follow the herd and I am sure in 5 years or so many will come back to their previous hobby systems after having a disagreement with the games rules or because of the direction the companies taking,I will lastly state that I belive that both systems have valid pros and cons but that I at least am still a GW supporter.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Warning: Rant incoming!...Anyone else run into this type of thing?

Missions,
Troops,
Mini Range Options,
Army Variety,
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,
National Tournaments/Events,
Size of player base,
Vehicles,
Plastic Models,
Game Scale (bigger is better),
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models
Fiction (published novels and fluff),
Age (warhammer is how much older?)

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer. Of course the underdogs need to re-assure eachother.

Please quote this in your other forum as some points someone else made if you'd like!

I suspect your point is well enough taken, the OP of the original thread has already posted in this one. (Bat Manuel) I'd like to see what he has to say about your points.

Normally I don't really care, but since Deadshane asked I'll throw out some counterpoints.

Missions,-->Both systems have a bunch of different missions.
Troops,--> Is this the same as the next point?
Mini Range Options,--> This corresponds to the company's age and Heroclix beats both GW & PP combined on this.
Army Variety,--> Eldravatar, Dual Lash, Nob Bikers. Great variety, and again this corresponds to the company's age.
No need for little Cards and record keeping in Warhammer,--> Dice and cotton balls then?
National Tournaments/Events,--> I'd say that's a tie this year.
Size of player base,-->Pokemon, Magic & Yugiho spank everything so that's a moot point.
Vehicles,--> Personal preference.
Plastic Models,--> Personal preference.
Game Scale (bigger is better),--> Personal preference.
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models-->This corresponds to the company's age and there already are spin off PP games.
Fiction (published novels and fluff),--> This has nothing to do with the actual game does in now Eldrad?
Age (warhammer is how much older?)--> That's like saying "I'd rather hook up with your Grandma over your hot mom."
Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.--> That's an opinion even though the games are so dissimilar as someone already pointed out.

Of course the underdogs need to re-assure each other.--> Isn't that what this thread is all about

sourclams wrote:It's great to know that Dakka has stopped creating its own forum drama to the point that other worthless forum drama has to get dragged onto ours to see if it's interesting enough to get dramatic over.

Why do you care if the people at your store make fun of your future toy game? Aren't you winning in real life? If your "Gamers" are anything like the ones over here, they weigh 300 pounds, use large words to justify their lack of a "real job", and score on date night with their right hand to catgirl pr0n.

I don't give a flying goddamn about any of my local gaming store's peanut gallery of half-formed opinions from quasi-literate quasi-college dumbfuckistanis.

Know how to combat it? Be the dick that people look to because you're winning in Real Life. Give them the option of joining the mouth breathing stereotypical nerd-herd or forming their own opinion and enjoying a hobby.

Get the mouth breathers into a debate, force them to form an opinion, and then shoot them down and mock them when it's obviously BS. And if you can't do that, then you're not the guy to fix it.

QFT. Win at real life.

On the other hand, I agree that it is frustrating to not have a good group of guys to game with. I've been gaming less and less and doing more and more with other hobbies and friends, but I miss gaming.

Lots of haterz out there. We are all that at some time or another.
Some people have cause to criticize while others simply do it because they feel compelled to voice their unwarranted opinion.

I criticize 40K all the time. Everyone does because there is a lot to criticize. But the superiority complex I see in some gamers on their gaming preference is a bit...taxing on the senses so to speak.

It really does come down to preference.

I personally love the idea of warmahordes because it has sold mechanics like M:tG and I get to play with dollies while I am playing it. But I honestly cannot get into it. Mostly because of all the rules I have to keep up with and I am not willing to memorize every ability to be competitive so I refrain from playing warmahordes.

40K is pretty similar in that vein. But since I have been playing it so long I have a different comfort level and am accustomed to its sometimes wonky mechanics.

Tell people to lay out their critique in a informal manner and to stuff their opinions up their butt.

It's a shame this kinda fanboy stuff has to happen. It comes up in Vid games all the time too. (X-box vs PS3)

I don't think the correct approach is to come back with "Oh yeah, well 40k POWNS Warmachine 'cause we got tanks" or some such fanboy counter.

I think the best way to get them to shut up is just respond, "hey, PP is cool, so is 40k. Some folks like Chocolate, others like vanilla."

Then see if they can get into a fanboy argument over ice cream flavors.

Bat Manuel wrote:
Mini Range Options,--> This corresponds to the company's age and Heroclix beats both GW & PP combined on this.
Army Variety,--> Eldravatar, Dual Lash, Nob Bikers. Great variety, and again this corresponds to the company's age.
Size of player base,-->Pokemon, Magic & Yugiho spank everything so that's a moot point.
Spin off games (apocalypse, necromunda, space hulk, combat patrol, etc.) with the same models-->This corresponds to the company's age and there already are spin off PP games.

Sorry, but complaining that 40k is older just doesn't make sense.

Yeah, they've had more time to write fluff and work on models. That's what makes them better. It's an advantage that they have over Privateer.

It's like saying "Hey, Privateer Press only makes better rules because their upper brass cares more about rules balance! That doesn't count!"

It's as valid a reason for the game to be better as any other. That doesn't make it better just because it's older, but the advantages GW has due to their age are as legitimate as any Privateer Press has.

Also, talking about card games is a complete non-sequitur. The popularity of Magic and Pokemon has nothing to do with Warhammer and Warmachine. The greater fan-base of Warhammer is a legitimate advantage when you're looking for a game.

<sarcasm>I just don't understand this whole PP > GW or GW < PP when everyone knows FoW is better than both!

Sorry couldn't resist besides everyone knows that right before the company went under Warzone/Chronopia were the bestest. </sarcasm>

Honestly after having gone through the majority of miniature games over the years, all 5 versions of 40k, 6 versions of fantasy, all the specialist games, fow, warmachine, chronopia, warzone, clanwars, void, battletech etc.

You come to the realization that the game system doesn't really matter all that much. It comes down to, do I like the background, do I think the miniatures look cool, and do I have friends that will play the game with me.

Warmaster wrote:

You come to the realization that the game system doesn't really matter all that much. It comes down to, do I like the background, do I think the miniatures look cool, and do I have friends that will play the game with me.

True words that. True words.

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.--> That's an opinion even though the games are so dissimilar as someone already pointed out.

It's an opinion, Orly? Explain the red and Gold berzerkers in PP then

Skorn and Khorne?

So they're totally different...? That was a shameless copy. I was going to wait for the release of their totally unique green plague guys, you know, Snurgle. But it hasn't come out yet...

Of course the underdogs need to re-assure each other.--> Isn't that what this thread is all about

Of course it is! I don't care how people spend their freetime or what's on other forums. I thought it would be fun to make Deadshane's case, a little more, dramaticly! Come on this is Dakka! The fortress of 40k! Do I think GW>PP, obviously, is it really? Who cares.

Good luck whatever you choose.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I find it interesting that PP are now taking a path similar to GW.

Rejigging the rules, and monkeying around with points values. I understand they will also be releasing seperate books for each army (Faction as a word here is inaccurate. Catholicism is a 'faction' of Christianity. What we have here are different countries and their armed forces clashing!). Even apparently going semi plastic in places.

Given their rather bold status when they first started off (when Page 5 was pretty much an 'we;re not GW nor anything like them willy wave) I find it interesting that they are having to go much the same way.

I even postulated this a couple of years ago on Warseer, simply stating given the games nature, it had a definite ceiling. Thus, over time, peoples collections will naturally grow beyond this gaming glass ceiling, at which point they might consider a swift rescaling.

Interesting to note however that, like GW, they appear to be missing the trick of keeping the previous rule set available for purchase, if only lightly supported. Shame really, but I dare say there are logistical constraints here.

If you were following what is actually going on right now in the PP world, and how it's being done, you'd find that this is amazingly different from GW and is (IMO) far and away better.

Yes PP is doing faction books. They're also releasing all 5 Faction books, one a month, each month following the release of the new rule set. I'm not going to go 10 years without an update to my Khador army, while Cygnar gets 3 rules updates.

Yes PP is re-balancing the game. They're also doing a free public/open beta-test where people can submit feedback on the rules - where cases of outright over-nerfage/buff can hopefully be caught.

As of now there's nothing that really pushes the overall game size up. That really will flow down from what they set the tournaments for Mk2 games to be at and obviously the rest of the gamers will probably follow that. While it's true you can field more "stuff" because you get "Jack Points" with casters, with the changes to the system, you'll more likely to field more Jacks than lots and lots of troops, which means less models overall in a game.

To be fair, I did say similar path, not same.

I quite like the concept of onlnee beta of the rules. Might not work as many people hope (lots of voices, and only so many will be in unison) but it's better than not at all, sure.

I'm inclined to agree with many of the people posting here that who really gives a flying monkey wrench.

For one thing fanboys will never go away, they are a fact of nerd life that we just have to accept their are some people that just take it far too far and move on, yes thats very nice that your Imperial Guardsmen have been painted strictly to the background on how they should look with the correct insignia/unit numbers etc in the right places or yes thats very nice that Half Life is better than Halo have cookie...

I cite two examples from my own personal experience with fanboys

1) The Half Life 2 Halo 2 debate: Jesus back in what 2004 when I just started college (High School for our friends from across the pond I believe) this was all I heard everyday from my mates at college (luckily I had a PSP and Breath of Fire 3) the argument would swing back and forth over which game was going to be better, they asked me (now i'm not a big fan of FPS i prefer a good old JRPG something slow and relaxing) and so I said I would probably by Halo because it was most like how a 40k video game should be and I got a tirade of fanboy abuse from the HL2 crowd, for crying out loud you all know I don't like FPS games that much and i'm being berated by supernerds because I didn't pick HL2 so I said so what its just a video game lads i'd much rather play through Fire Warrior 15 times consecutively than listen to this pathetic gak again. Luckily at the mention of Fire Warrior they all shut up.

2) The 40k/Fantasy debate: Hey don't forget their are divisions in the GW camp too I hear this all the time in my FLGS and it sickens me to death. Recently I have become quite jaded on my outlook to 40k so i've just stopped playing it when I went in and picked up some extra units to add to my quite large now High Elf army there were gasps and nerd tirades about why I was playing Fantasy (a game i've always loved, I started in 4th ed with High Elves and Wood Elves, i've never enjoyed playing so much as I do with these two armies every game is more fun than any other game I play even a really good 3000pt game of 40k (not apocalypse just using FoC) to which I just climed on the middle gaming table and moved everyone that played what system into a separate corner, friends were everywhere as they couldnt decide there favorite system, so I now say, do you really want to alienate this many people just because of what system they play, grow up dudes. Paid for my things and left.

In both cases and in all cases where fanboys are involved it devolves to an I'm Rubber, Your Glue scenario, I've found their is a secret third option in this argument its called a flamethrower it works quite nicely on both rubber and glue.

@Deadshane - Prehaps try posting an announcement on the forum since your a MOD, stating that its great that people have opinions of there own etc etc and favorite gaming systems, however some of the recent bashing and stifling of other peoples hobby that is not their personal choice and the way it is being put across is against forum rules and action will be taken on people consistently breaking rules laid down by the Admin team of the site?

They might not listen to reason, but hey least you can say you tried dude.

Augustus wrote:

Face it, Warmachine is, and always will be, a bastardized GW game clone that stands in the shadow of Warhammer.--> That's an opinion even though the games are so dissimilar as someone already pointed out.

It's an opinion, Orly? Explain the red and Gold berzerkers in PP then

Skorn and Khorne?

So they're totally different...? That was a shameless copy. I was going to wait for the release of their totally unique green plague guys, you know, Snurgle. But it hasn't come out yet...

Of course the underdogs need to re-assure each other.--> Isn't that what this thread is all about

Of course it is! I don't care how people spend their freetime or what's on other forums. I thought it would be fun to make Deadshane's case, a little more, dramaticly! Come on this is Dakka! The fortress of 40k! Do I think GW>PP, obviously, is it really? Who cares.

Good luck whatever you choose.

Anyway.

True story.

They let me teach an honors English class of freshman students. So they were two kinds of
awkward. One, they were freshmen. Two, they were the nerds. There were two lazy kids
in the class. One of them included squirrels in every essay somehow, and the other one
tried to piss off every one in the room with annoying antics, even the nice kids.

Annoying boy revelled in their hate. Even kids who were nice to him were driven away
deliberately as he wanted nothing but negative attention.

Finally squirrel boy and annoying boy got into a fight in my classroom. I looked up and it
was a slapfight. Annoying boy turned to run out of the room and squirrel boy went and
did this behind annoying boy:



I started laughing.

"NERDS, sit down!"

They never fought again.

Squirrel boy (who's in college) still denies that the incident ever happened.

Out of curiosity are we talking about the Atlantis Comics on Little Creek?

keezus wrote:

generalgrog wrote:I do remember one of the local WM players calling GW "The Great Satan" at one point.

Was it by any chance during 4th edition?

IMO, 4th in my mind, has been the gakkiest edition to date. 5th is a huge improvement. I still do not understand why they do not provide a "black book" soft reset for all races at the start of every edition. It would fix a lot of problems, such as Landraiders, identically named weapons having different stats in different codecies, orphan armies from 2 editions ago, and basically alow a rebalancing of points to counter shifts introduced by introduction of new core mechanics such as running.

-Sigh-

i think that if gw puts out a new edition, they should have all the codex's for each army come out at the same time, then have model updates after that. make things alot less stressfull for thier customers, and the customer is always right, nes pa?