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I am thinking something like:

Autarch with jetbike, mandiblasters, laser lance (130)
Farseer with fortune (120ish)

10 harlequins with shadowseer and whatever (250ish)
2 x 6 fire dragons (182)

4 x tiny jetbike squads for scoring, with one shuriken cannon and spearlok (powers are for sissies)

3 x falcons with scatterlaser/shuricannon/stones/field/vectored engines (645 or so)

Should work pretty nicely. The jetbikes are uber at giving you lots of super fast scoring units for:
1) Objective grab
2) Rear armor
3) block exit hatches/monolith portals/etc

Might be good to drop some jetbikes but man 22 pt T4 3+ save guys with a JSJ move are hard to argue with.

I think the 130 pt S6 jetbike autarch is seriously keen also.

I got my look at the codex today and absolutely none of the special characters really appeal to me. They are just too expensive or too slow or both. Yriel is too slow. Eldrad is expensive. Phoenix lords are both slow and expensive, mostly.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>bigchris1313 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

First off, that's about as HQ heavy as I've ever seen an Eldar army (Seer Council from Hell notwithstanding).

I'll admit that it is a tad heavy on the HQ side but I think it will be quite effective. Eldrad is worth every single point with ease....

I don't understand the DA/Serpent choice at all.

Considering that I have won numerous tourneys with them in the list using the current crappy rules how can I not look at this as an upgrade? Besides, I do have comp scoring to worry about so having the most common aspect in there helps....lol, I also like the colour. (jeez, that's soo non tactical isn't it?)

I guess you need the Warlocks with the Bikes for the mobile lascannons.

Pretty much. I've come to the conclusion that GW no longer wants us to use brightlances as they are hideously expensive to use now. The spear and the dragons got buffs for a reason I suppose.

But the powers seem superfluous.

I'd never call embolden on a LD8 unit superfluous. Destructor is iffy but I had an extra 5 points (lol). This is still all playtesting though.

Why the heavy flamer on the FDs? Versatility means nothing.

Really? Tell that to the madly versatile scorpions of our current codex. (lol) So versatile they get nerfed in the new dex.

I killed termies w/ destructors on saturday. It only takes a single failed save in the unit to have the same damn effect that the melta gun had  anyways. In addition it certianly helps on the times that you do not have terminators or vehicles / MC's to shoot at.

Don't waste a shot against a predator, and you won't be tempted to flame a huge squad of gaunts late in the game either. I'd go with 2 squads of 6 Dragons, no upgrades at all. They're too good for the pts just as they are.

I think that with the increase in str the first 5 fusion guns will do the job. The heavy flamer upgrade is FREE so for me that's hard to pass up. I have the one unit at 5 so that I can put either character in there if need be. The new FAQ gives us some options when using escalation in regards to how stuff can come in....

Starcannons on Falcons? Too early to tell, IMHO. It just seems like they're too expensive now. Just remember that in 5+ cover the scatter laser is statistically equal to the Starcannon against MEQs but actually slightly better due to the increased number of shots.

I was originally going to go w/ scatter lasers but realized that with guide on both of them from Eldrad I'll be hammering a lot of hits on target. Sure, in cover the star cannon loses a little bit of it's punch but making a 5++ is harder than making a 3+ isn't it? Where the scatter laser wins out is vs. hordes and light vehicles....I already have stuff for that.

The Spiders are an interesting choice. The Spinneret rifle seems like a good choice, but let's look at it: against LD 10 MEQs (Marines + Necrons), you're looking at .35 failed pinning tests per game, assuming no one is in cover. Even against LD 9 Chaos, you're looking at .70 failed pinning tests per game, again with no cover. Not worth it. Perhaps a unit of Hawks with haywires to for vehicle hunting would be useful. That might let you drop the SS Warlocks and take 2 more scoring jetbike squads.

I'll be using the spiders to nail rear / side armour on whirlwinds / bassies and the like. With that in mind I think I already have enough glances to deal with it. The thought of getting a penetrating hit makes me feel warm and fuzzy! (lol) Also, pinning is relatively rare but when it does work it's golden! Not to mention ap1 means a dead MEQ even possibly a terminator....Cost is same for the twin spinner...

I knew my list wouldn't be well received but then again I get odd looks from time to time based on choices....till they see them played. (lol)

Lazarus.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Yeah, but they are really cool characters. However, I would rather take a standard Autarch to get those benifits and run him with the Aspect Squad he is best suited at supporting.

You don't think that Yriel can support a unit? 5 attacks on the charge that wound anything on 2+ and ignore armour saves? Hitting vehicles at str9?

Again, it is the versatility that he offers my list. Put him with banshees for example and he wrecks units right along with them fast as hell while also being able to handle dreads or whatever else.

Though I think (to save more points) I wouldn't take the Exarch, and if I was going to take the Exarch it would be duel S. Catapults, which puts you at 2.6 Dead MEQs when you Bladestorm, 3.9 if the unit is doomed.

I'm also tyoing with the idea of the power weapon & shimmer shield. Get Yriel and eldrad in there with CC and you have a pretty damn durable unit. (lol)

It does seem a little pricey. Unless you really think you need the 5+ Cover Save, or the flame template I don't see a use for it.

When looking at the list  what were you really  going to spend 15 points on? (lol)

I agree, however, that Heaby Flamer upgrade is cheap and very tempting.

Cheap as in completely free.

He probably doesn't want to change his models unless he has too.

I'll be buying all new stuff for scott to start working on so change is a moot point. I started looking at the math comparring the scatter laser to the star cannon and came to the conclusion that the star cannon is still better vs. MEQ's. The star cannon is certainly better vs. heavy infantry and MC's etc.

Im using spiders over hawks as they are more durable and immediately usefull upon deepstriking....I'd hate to see hawks being gunned down by a whirlwind....

Well lazarus has seen, read, spent hours in, and made a list from the new codex (the store got it's preview copy) coppled that with his 20 years Eldar experiance and impressive RTT win record, I am more than silling to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for the support. Great, now my hat doesn't fit (lol).

I'm not saying my list is the end all be all of lists. I'm saying that I think I can win games with it and likely easier than with my last list.....I'll be playing it tomorrow so I'll let you know how it goes.

Lazarus.

Lazarus: hmm taking both Yriel and Eldrad? would that be wise in a tournament using comp scoring? I dont know ive never actually used a special character ever really... As my colour scheme is sorta Ulthwe-ish I could definately take eldrad but I would probably replace Yriel with a standard autarch. If you put the Autarch on a bike you can have a similar ammount of attacks and a fair bit of independent mobility. On a side note, Eldrad doesnt have a jetbike option does he?

The 5 man spider unit seems a great one for tank busting, and the spinaret rifle will only need a 4+ to penetrate most rear armour (ap 1?)
Avengers you know Ill be using as well, but the way you have equipped your exarch you seem like you're expecting them to see combat? For me personally that setup means less shuri shots, but are you seeing them being charged or actually moving them in? Or are you just going for versatility?

Seems like a fun list to play with though...
btw are those exact points values?

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>garinator </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Lazarus: hmm taking both Yriel and Eldrad? would that be wise in a tournament using comp scoring?

Sure, why not? I'm creating my own craftworld theme for this force based around pirates. Often, pirates will work with different people right?

I would probably replace Yriel with a standard autarch. If you put the Autarch on a bike you can have a similar ammount of attacks and a fair bit of independent mobility.

The autarch (decently equipped) on the bike begins to cost nearly the same a Yriel. I LOVE Yriel's model btw. I like the fact that Yriel can drop a  wraithlord  on the charge. Mobility I already have....you did see my tanks right?

On a side note, Eldrad doesnt have a jetbike option does he?

No, the only real glaring weakness that I spot. However, I found that when I put a decently equipped seer on a bike that he was nearly as expensive as Eldrad was. Eldrad can't be instant killed by perils, can toss 3 powers per turn (including same one twice) and his precog power is awesome!

If my falcons are shooting then they are moving 12" or less. With this in mind I can start him near them (guide both) and either walk + fleet behind them or if I need to get somewhere in a hurry just get into the one that has 5 dragons.

I know the HQ's are fairly expensive but I still have roughly the same ammount of models that are usually in my mech list....I'm going to try it this way and see how it works.

The 5 man spider unit seems a great one for tank busting, and the spinaret rifle will only need a 4+ to penetrate most rear armour (ap 1?)

I thought so too. Many will tell you that you are better off with dual spinners on the exarch as it basically affords you 3 more shots at ap-. I figured that I could get the job done with the unit as is....If I find this to not be the case then perhaps I'll switch back to the dual spinners as the price is idential. I'm also liking the spiders combined with the autarch's +1 on reserves. Since it says you "may" add the +1 it might be possible to try and "hold" the reserves for a turn or two depending on how bad of a roller you are (lol).

Avengers you know Ill be using as well, but the way you have equipped your exarch you seem like you're expecting them to see combat? For me personally that setup means less shuri shots, but are you seeing them being charged or actually moving them in? Or are you just going for versatility?

I was really just going for the versatility. When you use blade storm you will not get to fire next turn so I think it's best to have a little bit of combat punch. With either Yriel or Eldrad backing them up the get just a tiny bit better don't they? I was actually thinking of using the shimmer shield as when it is combined with fortune they'll stick around alot longer in CC. (just some thoughts)

Seems like a fun list to play with though...

My thoughts exactly. I could certialy go for some cheaper HQ's to gain some points for other stuff but I still want to try it this way.

btw are those exact points values?

Yes, they are. From my understanding you can post exact point valuse of units etc. as long as you are not posting individual costs of wargeat / upgrades etc.

Lazarus.

lol sounds a little like a story I heard in this thread about a MEQ player explaining his high proponderance of Assault cannon 'speeders on his army defending a 'speeder factory . Still I have little experience with such matters. I'm definately considering buying Yriel as he is indeed an amazing model.



That description does indeed make Eldrad sound tempting. As I use him as just a normal seer in my Ulthwe army I will be doing some playtesting with him with the new dex. The only problem I see is that he will probably not be casting any powers in your second turn. Unless he is footslogging however, but in such a mobile army that may see him isolated or out of range with his powers. Guide is still 12" right? The precog is amazing though.... With such a mobile army which can mostly move 24" a turn replacing 3 units is quite a trick. It could easily enable you to trick an opponent as to where you will attack or what your objectives will be.




Hmm im not so sure. Surely clever positioning of the serpent so they are difficult to assault and using them in conjunction with the falcons and dragons will leave their target seriously mauled (not to mention doom) or assaulting them difficult? Bladestorm does stop them from firing, but whats to then stop you from rembarking them and jetting off to another location or somewhere safer in their "down" turn? On a side note I noticed that you have equipped none of your transports with star engines? Dont you think the extra 12" is required?

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>garinator </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

lol sounds a little like a story I heard in this thread about a MEQ player explaining his high proponderance of Assault cannon 'speeders on his army defending a 'speeder factory . Still I have little experience with such matters. I'm definately considering buying Yriel as he is indeed an amazing model.

Perhaps I'll eventually go with a normal seer on a bike. I just don't see the craftworlds as pure as they once were especially with the new codex and FOC. Yriel was even kicked out of service and vowed to never go back to Iyanden....who is to say that he hasn't left again? For an Iyanden model he has awfully  black  armour(lol)....

That description does indeed make Eldrad sound tempting. As I use him as just a normal seer in my Ulthwe army I will be doing some playtesting with him with the new dex. The only problem I see is that he will probably not be casting any powers in your second turn. Unless he is footslogging however, but in such a mobile army that may see him isolated or out of range with his powers. Guide is still 12" right?

Tried this yesterday and it was amazing! I'm not quite as mobile as I wanted to be (kept my falcons moving about 7"-10" per turn) but the mission itself made it ok I suppose (take and hold + secondary of table quarters). Guide has a range of 6" so Eldard walking combined with fleeting every round for the first 3 turns meant I was able to keep the falcons guided....when he needed to re-locate I could embark and leave if need be. Sure, no powers inside the transport for that turn but I had already cast doom on a unit before embarking. When he gets out next time he switches to shooting mode for either 2 mindwars and an eldritch storm or the other way around!

The precog is amazing though.... With such a mobile army which can mostly move 24" a turn replacing 3 units is quite a trick. It could easily enable you to trick an opponent as to where you will attack or what your objectives will be.

The power is especially amazing if your opponent does not understand what it does or is unaware that you are playing Eldrad. For most games here we don't exchange lists until  after  set up so often you only have a vauge idea of what your opponent is playing. I dropped a fire prism on my left flank way up front and out in the open on purpose...this of course drew 2 devastator units directly across from it (lol). I kept my falcons sort of to the middle-right and then supported the prism with 2 bike units as well. The rest of the army continued to stay to the center - right. When I used precog I rolled an was able to re-posistion 3 units so I simply picked up my left flank and placed it to the far right. Those poor foot devastator units and no real LOS to that side of the board and not much even to the middle (lol). He also had other units on that side that were rendered inneffectice for the game.

Surely clever positioning of the serpent so they are difficult to assault and using them in conjunction with the falcons and dragons will leave their target seriously mauled (not to mention doom) or assaulting them difficult?

Sure, IF you are getting to do it that way. Most smart opponents will concentrate fire on your serpents over the falcons as they are easier to shoot down. A better return of investment for the effort and usually pinning / killing lots of stuff inside. In most all of my games I have usually been thankfull that I had a power weapon in the unit.....perhaps I'll change it though....even though it is only 10 points.

 Bladestorm does stop them from firing, but whats to then stop you from rembarking them and jetting off to another location or somewhere safer in their "down" turn?

Getting their serpent shot down is usually a good reason. Obviously if it is still alive it is a good idea....

 On a side note I noticed that you have equipped none of your transports with star engines? Dont you think the extra 12" is required?

I desperately wanted to but the cost adds up quickly. I could drop the psychic powers from both warlocks to gain a single upgrade but this list at the moment doesn't need that sort of raw speed due to Eldrad. I wouldn't want it on just  one  tank.

Overall the game was a success. Doom combined with the prism's secondary fire mode was great. Yriel trashed a dread as well as a whole tactical sqaud in hand to hand. The power fist worried me for a minute but I was able to make 2 invulnerable saves. The dire avengers did pretty good. I got one turn of firing on them combined with doom and managed to kill 7 marines with it. His whirlwind then promtly wrecked my avngers (killed 4 of them) along side of some drop pod sqaud fire and the remains of the tac sqaud killing 3 more....they broke and ran. (lol) My spiders didn't come in unti round 3 despite the bonus to the roll but promtly killed the whirlwind with 4 glances and 1 penetrating hit from the spiders. The spiders lost 2 models from enemy fire and then I hid them to capture a table quarter.

The enemy librarian tried to cast FOTA twice and the 1st time he failed with an 11 and the second time rolled a 14 giving him perils of the warp. He was wounded and failed his invulnerable save....1/2 points for me! (lol). He did not try to cast any more powers declaring runes of warding broken. (lol)

The bike units were slightly unimpressive but then again I'm playing against marines I suppose. I lost one unit and the other was reduced to half strength but still good enough to score. The spears were good for killing drop pods though (lol) - he had two of them.

Overall a solid win and I didn't lose any of the falcons or the prism. 1 falcon did get immobilized on turn 6 but lived. Dragons instan killed the librarian after I had destroyed the rest of his retinue with my other firepower.

Yriel took a wound from his spear so that sort of sucked....he had 1 left though.

I'll have to play this again and see how I do with him knowing that I had Eldrad and what precognition does. It screwed him soo terribly bad I think. (lol)

Lazarus.

Powerful certainly. I take it you were using the new dex? On stepping out of the transport cant you still use mind war and eldritch storm? arnt they shooting phase powers? therefore there would actually be no downtime when using his powers? He can cast the support powers on the term he hops in the transport and then cast the offensive powers on the turn he hops out?


Yes I though so, and even if he did know what eldrad can do it still is really no defence to you being able to redeploy essentially 6 units in your army. (transports+contents of them)



Hmm Perhaps if when you jumped the avengers out (presumably after moving 24") you moved them 6" to the right and THEN moved the serpent 6" to stay in front of them. You could even take this additional movement into account when moving 24" the last turn. This would mean your serpent is still only getting shot down on a 6 . I dunno what the chances are but they need a 4+ and then a 6 to destroy it outright. (assuming vectored engines). I think it would be safe to assume that you could count on it offering protection for 1 turn after they hop out.



Ah ok true. How much do star engines cost btw? and you still wouldnt want them on possibly a banshee unit in a serpent?

Sounds like a fun game. What did you do with the bikes? Would you take the two smaller units again over the 1 bigger one? Did the spearlocks not kill any tanks? Usually I could easily see those squads poping tanks with shuri cannons and spears...

Those runes are just about the most slowed piece of wargear I have seen in some time. A textbook case of trump-eats-trump.

First Librarians get sweet powers and a Ld10 psychic hood, and now Farseers get a 'you never get to cast a psychic power' item. Brilliant. Way to unnerf psychers, by giving any psycher the ability to totally screw another psycher automatically.

Watching a psychic hood Librarian square off psychically against a farseer with runes has to be something like watching slow boxing in the special olympics except without any of the violence.

I too think that the runes are a bit on the powerfull side. I would have much prefered some protection againbst the hood itself instead.

 

Eldar are more dpendant on the psychic powers then the marines are. Remove the psychic power from Librarian and he can still kick your ass in close combat. Remove the powers from a seer and you really don't have much of anything to look at. (lol)

Lazarus.

Posted By Lazarus on 10/25/2006 3:56 AM

The enemy librarian tried to cast FOTA twice and the 1st time he failed with an 11 and the second time rolled a 14 giving him perils of the warp. He was wounded and failed his invulnerable save....1/2 points for me! (lol).

Just FYI, you don't get any saves vs perils of the warp...Including invulnerable.

Yeah that was my thought. Still, Runes of Warding is a nice trump to the ubiquitous Fear of the Dark. Hell, they kept me from using it this weekend and my libarian took a wound to boot. That alone is a big boost to the eldar in the current metagame.

Wait, how will that work against other psychers out there? Say, the only other 4th edition codex with psychers: Tyranids?

Greets
Schepp himself

If its innate it won't make a differrence (adds a d6 to a psychic test so won't bother innate powers or Tzeentch).

But a power like the Warp Blast is hosed.

Hmmm, i think you're right....I gave it to him as I was used to making my 4++ with my ghost helm against it....wow, it just got soo much better.

Lazarus.

Lazarus, how did your jetbikes do in that match? With their new affordable cost I've been thinking of using them. Have some thoughts to an Eldar "semiMEQ", Jetbikes, Scorpions, Spiders.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Kikkoman </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Lazarus, how did your jetbikes do in that match? With their new affordable cost I've been thinking of using them. Have some thoughts to an Eldar "semiMEQ", Jetbikes, Scorpions, Spiders.

Considering that I was playing against MEQ's I wasn't expecting that much out of them. I did manage to destroy 2 drop pods with the singing spears and generally absorb some firepower with them. I captured an objective with one of the units as well.

I'm pondering replacing the serpent & avengers with more bikes....or perhaps bikes & shining spears.....early to tell yet. I actually pick up my codex today so I'll have more time with it from here on out.

I'm really missing my scorpions in this new dex.....gotta figure out a way to feel good about using them..

Lazarus.

I posted this on www.40konline.com and figured some would find it useful here:

Well, I can do some math up, I'll stick to glancing hits only though, since that's all that should be happening (unless immobilized, etc).

The math below is for a Falcon that has Spirit Stones, Holofield, and Vectored Engines. If you wanted to just look at the difference between w/ and w/o vectored engines, just add the immobilize and destroyed percentages together.

So, first, let me give you the easy way of doing the math yourself:
Take the fraction that correlates to the BS below

BS
2  = 1/3
3  = 1/2
4  = 2/3

Multiply it with the number that correlates with the weapon's strength below
(Not applicable for short range melta shots, monstrous creatures, etc.)

Str
6   = 1/6
7   = 1/3
8   = 1/2
9   = 2/3
10 = 5/6

and then multiply the product of the above two with the chance of each result below

Shaken = 25/36
Weapon Destroyed = 5/36
Immobilized = 1/12
Destroyed = 1/36


The number that you get by multiplying the appropriate 3 fractions from above together gives you the chance that a single shot will have of causing the sort of damage you chose.

For Instance: Space Marine w/ a Las Cannon
Shaken = 25/81 = 30.86%
Weapon Destroyed = 1/16 = 6.25%
Immobilzed = 1/27 = 3.7%
Destroyed = 1/81 = 1.23%

So, there you have the chance that each shot will cause those results. All other shots will be misses or will not be sufficient to glance.

Comments, suggestions, requests?

Thanks for the rundown there. 

Anyone else doing any playtesting with the new dex?

Lazarus.

Posted By Lazarus on 10/25/2006 12:15 PM

I'm pondering replacing the serpent & avengers with more bikes....or perhaps bikes & shining spears.....early to tell yet.

But I thought that you were really into your Serpent/DA combo.

I don't think that waveserpents are that great when you can have 22pt bikes with an assault move.

So many better things to spend your points on. Not going to say they aren't decent, but the bikes, harlequins, maybe even shining spears, lots of stuff is just way better.

I think spears are kind of lame honestly, don't need that much counter-assault given how vulnerable they are for the points. harlequins and a nasty autarch should be fine for counter-assault.

Posted By Lazarus on 10/25/2006 4:39 PM

Thanks for the rundown there. 

Anyone else doing any playtesting with the new dex?

Lazarus.

Actually, I am.

I am only playing 1000 point games so far, but the results are interesting.

Keep in mind this is for COD.

The list I have been recently using is
6 warwalkers with scatterlasers (3 squads of 2)
4 squads of three jetbikes with shuricannon
autarch on jetbike with shining spear weapon
8 proxied harlies with kiss and shadow seer


The jetbikes are just great when you have more than a couple squads. The key is to keep them small. The terrain helps booth the jetbikes and the warwalkers. I noramlly lose 3 warwalkers a game.

The harlies are really super neat in COD. I cant say enough good things about them. I need to tweak the autarch more though, as he should be with shining spears the way I got him kitted out.

Next I am going to try out the swooping hawks to see if they fare better nowadays with the lack of sustained assault.

I love my warwalkers. So much so, that I may actually get 2 squad boxes of them to replace my metals.

Hellfury, how much use do you think WWs will have outside CoD?

PS: I like the new models too.  Especially in comparison to the old ones.  But right now I can't imagine that AV10 will keep me all that safe.

I doubt they will be big, because COD isnt as big as it should be, sadly.

That said, I agree, av10 sucks without the range. I have been using them to threaten the outskirts of the board, where LOS is a bit clearer, forcing opponents to remain in cover, thats where the jetbikes have been coming in handy. In fact, I may take out the shuricannon and replace with a warlock and singing spear. The added range of the shuricannons isnt being used at all. But then again, I just got a copy of a friend codex, so its still new territory. All of 6 games.

Just want to agree that the Spear Autarch really ought to be with Spears who have hit and run or have a power weapon as a secondary weapon (if allowed).

I played with the 130 pt, Spear Autarch on monday and he got stuck in combat with a devastator squad. He more than made up his points early on, but the devs eventually killed him after he only killed three on the charge and then failed to do anything with the 5 s3 attacks he has afterwards...

Like the new falcons, I really prefer being able to rely on 2 shots from the pulse laser. It makes up for the loss of a shot on the starcannon to some extent. Ended up never shooting it's shuriken cannon, but I think that they'll be as good as ever.

 

Might be good to back him up with a squad of jetbikes some of the time. I'm not sure I would go for spears given the increase in cost and no increase in durability. Maybe a small squad to help him out I guess if you were careful with it.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>bigchris1313 </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

But I thought that you were really into your Serpent/DA combo.

I am.

However, like I said, I'm still in playtesting mode. Got another game in against a witch hunter force with the same list with nearly the same results. the avengers did slightly better due to the lower toughness of my opponent....I can't wait to see what they do to really squishy targets.

What's actually turning me off to the avengers isn't the avengers at all....it's their serpent. Good serpent builds are so expensive now that I've had to settle for the shuriken cannon on it for nearly the same points as my BL used to cost....

I play against a lot of drop armies as well.....So far, my tanks (including serpents) are what really keep me in those games. Bikes on the other hand I don't think would be able to survive the hail of fire nearly as well.....even if I had turbo boosted the round before small arms fire doesn't really care that your save is invulnerable....

Lazarus.

I'm just waiting for the eventual batrep where 10 Avengers kill every guadsmen on the table.

I'd like a chance to play against some squishy targets but I mostly face MEQ's......in 3rd edition I did once have 6 dire avengers kill over 40 imperial guard infantry in hand to hand combat (lol)

Lazarus.

Posted By Longshot on 10/26/2006 1:15 AM
Might be good to back him up with a squad of jetbikes some of the time. I'm not sure I would go for spears given the increase in cost and no increase in durability. Maybe a small squad to help him out I guess if you were careful with it.

For clarification, they went down in cost and turboboosting does give them a bit of survivability.  And they easily doubled or even tripled in killing power.

And the hit & run Exarch helps out with the lances.

They may or may not be worth the price, but they are leagues better than the old S6 non power weapons on the charge for 60 points a pop.