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Oh, and how much do warlock jetbikes cost? 

25pts base, and jetbikes are +14pts over guardians, so is 39pts or 40pts a good guess now?

Also, can Jetbike characters have Singing Spears?

So, a 3 man squad with cannon...

Was... 125pts
Now... 76pts

Geez!

Rumor is a Warlock on bike is 45 points (witchblade included, curious whether he has a pistol but dunno). Makes sense as base warlock is 25 and character jetbikes cost 20.

Posted By Mannahnin on 10/13/2006 5:28 AM
The range is the killer for the shuricannon WW squad. They’ll buzz through non power-armored stuff, but against Marines you’re looking at 9 hits, 8 wounds, 2-3 dead. And then the bolters can hit you back in addition to plasma and any heavy weapon. Ugh. I think I’ll pay the extra for Scatter Lasers.

I have COD on the brain and always forget to qualify that.

In normal 40K (with its lack of dense terrain), the scatter laser is the king here in this instance. In cod, where range isnt a large matter, I will stick with the cheaper shuricannon.

Though, after alot of playtesting, I am sure I will end up using the scatterlaser even in COD. Normally in the games here its hard to get long ranged LOS as we fairly densely pack the table with terrain. Time will tell there.

When you think about it, the shuricannon is cheap, but the scatter laser is just as cheap when you consider  the range and rate of fire increase.

That's good news about Jetbike Warlocks. If we can get a 66-point 3-man Jetbike squad with a ~48 point Singing Spear Warlock, that's a rather threatening and rather cheap unit. If Destructor's ~15 or so, that's a total cost of about 130 points for a very versatile unit (or 150 for four Jetbikes). With five models, you've got a free casualty before you have to start testing, and you have to lose all but two to become nonscoring. The total cost is about 60 points less than what I was spending on mounted Flamer squads in a Bright Lance Serpent and has comparable firepower and durability. A first-turn turboboost ups their survivability and positions them to either hurl a Spear or flame and shoot up an infantry squad. As well, all of those points are scoring.

Edit: To be a bit more explicit, the Jetbike squad has a 12" Lascannon and a heavy flamer, with the equivalent of 12 BS3 Shuriken Pistol shots, whereas my mounted unit had a Bright Lance, a heavy flamer and two normal flamers, and the equivalent of 6 BS3 Pistol shots.  The Jetbike squad has to suffer three Marine-profile casualties (sometimes with invulnerable saves) before it becomes nonscoring, and it can go all the way down to just the Warlock while still operating at almost full offensive capability.  Killing those first three from range is going to be about as hard as knocking down a Serpent (assuming S8 weaponry), and the Bikes aren't really all that vulnerable to Drop Pods and the like when they turboboost.  They go down more easily to small arms, but it shouldn't be that difficult, with an 18+" move, to play keepaway.  They've got a S9 shot from 24" away at the start of the turn and can end the turn 18" away from the target.  They can bring a heavy flamer to bear from 20".  Plus, they ignore terrain while doing all of this.  I see them as being a short-ranged, faster, and punchier version of Crisis Suits.  Stealth Suits with Fusion Guns are probably pretty similar, and a squad of 4 of those with one Fusion Gun runs slightly over 120 points for something that's much slower, has no ability in assault, and that can't pick up an invulnerable save.

With Spears, I'm thinking about taking a squad of four or five and deploying a Farseer among them. On my first turn, they'll get Fortuned and will turboboost forward while the Farseer does a normal move, Mind Wars a heavy weapon, and uses his assault move to get up to the Spears, relying on his IC status and shield of invulnerable Spears. On the next turn, they'll join together, get Fortuned again, move forward, Mind War, and charge. The enemy's going to be hard-pressed to stop the Spears (27 Bolter shots are needed to kill one, or 54 Lasgun shots) and I get all the benefits of turboboosting for the Farseer while still being able to use Mind War (or some other second power of my choice).

I've heard that the Farseer's bodyguard of warlocks is a seperate unit from the Farseer himself.

how useful would a falcon with 6 heavy flamers be? Expenisve though.

More than a few flame templates in one squad is almost always a waste.  One or two heavy flamer template should be enough to wipe out almost any squad with a 4+ save or worse.  Two to Four is usually enough for even marine squads (note: they likely won't wipe out the marines, but it's a waste of 15pts to add that next flamer because it'll likely only hit 1 marine.  It'd be much more useful to give the 4th or 5th warlock Enhance or embolden... or, just have a smaller squad).

So... Farseers are 55pts... Locks are 25pts...

How's this for a squad...

Farseer w/ Singing Spear (any power works)
2 Warlocks w/ Spears and destructor

Bout 165pts for 3 models, but it's a great anti-infantry and anti-tank squad if you're missing some punch at either role.  Put them in a Falcon and you're good to go!

Seems to me everyone is passing on the most important upgrade for Farseers and Warlocks...they all now have power weapons! Instead of relying on a slow Avatar for wounds to win combat, The Seer Council..though small is actaully quite lethal and does not need too much back up once Fortune-ed and enhanced. None of there saves are 3+ so they will be fleeting-getting there, making there delivery much more flexable than it seems people are making them out to be.

Even without jet bikes this is a terribly good HQ. and capable of winning combats instead of supporting/tar-piting the enemy. Detach a seer with some Harlies and you have 2x Rock hard units barreling at you... both fleet one reroling inv both hitting very hard and the other rending w/ lots of attacks.

I dont know why soo many peopel are worried about Eldar shooting...yes it seems like it is slightly weaker (less 'cheesey/boring) but the Army's HQ/CC elements are soo much deeper and lethal. CC still rules the day in 40k. There jsut seems like there is so much you can force your opponent to do by turn 2 that Eldar will be top tier. Im intrigued to see what expereinced Eldar generals are going to be able to do with just a little cover and all these upgraded units.

Once players stop trying to cram HVY weapons into there lists and up there body counts for some of these units, synergizing and adding longevity, Eldar will have a much better chance to win deeper into the games rather than having to try to pound it out with star cannons and gimmicky craft word special abilities.

Heck the only bad choice in the list seems to be the Wraithguard and Viper...and fearless T6 Wraithguard could be a good flank protector, forcing $$$ vehicles to check up and hard units to be bogged down allowing Wraithlords and other Aspects time to wheel or clear out...yes they are both viulnerable to heavy weapons but what isnt...

Just my $.02

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Brother CPT Ginn </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Seems to me everyone is passing on the most important upgrade for Farseers and Warlocks...they all now have power weapons!

That's news to me....last I heard they come standard with witchblades and as far as I know they do not have access to them.....could someone confirm this?

Lazarus.

Yeah, I have to say I've not heard anyone say Farseers and Warlocks have access to powerweapons. Any help on this would be appreciated.

My sources tell me no power weapons for the farseers / warlocks.

Jeez, I wish I had the codex right now ....

Lazarus.

Hope I didnt stir things up too much...I read over in the earlier Warseer Brimstone posts, though it was a while ago, that wychblades were also going the way of the power weapon. I havent seen anything recently, though I figured this was because people were intrigued about Sspears and HVY weapons.

I dont really care Ill just be adding a cheap Autarach to the small seer council if they dont have Pweapons.

I just have one question. Lately I have been reading other forums such as warseer and Librarium-online.com, and most of the rumors dakka has pointed out are spot on with them, except one. According to the other forums Autrarch's cannot have exarch weaponary. The review on this forum says they can. Do we know the real anwser to this? Personally I think if the Autrarch cant have exarch weapon he is nearly useless. Since my guess is he will be around 55pt to 70 points at the most. We'd have a character with a very similar statline to a farseer, possibly with one more WS, BS, and Init. Ok so effectively we have a character that well move quickly and die just a quick. This is because nearly every army out there have str 6 weapons in Close combat ( Greyknights, Sisters, Marines (pfist), Chaos, imp guard, ect.) He only have has a 4+ save and I know many people are saying well just fortune him, but I am sorry Fortune isnt the answer to everything, the farseer cant be everywhere on the battlefield something needs to stand alone and not have to be baby sat. To be honest I was really hoping for something just as powerful as a Dark Eldar Archeon, but instead we get a leader that has basic weaponary. I mean honestly what will you spend ur points on with this guy? Scorpian helm, Banshee Pweapon, Shuriken pistol and thats it? (oh and as a bouns you get strat rating 4 with + 1 to reserve rolls!) I am giddy with anticipation (/sarcasm). I mean do you guys really believe that this will be worth the points to field? Wouldnt you rather have an Autrarch with a +2 inv save (make it none rerollable by anymeans) and something like a punisher or maybe a excutioner from the banshee exarch shine?

To be totally honest I am really upset at the entire codex. Vipers went up in points, Because of new rules we cant screen Dark reapers, so they arent so good even with a 3+ save. Banshee's wont be seen much because they cant get out and assualt anymore, Scorpians are in the same boat because harlequins will be the premier eldar CC specialist unit. We have a much weaker starcannon now, its no where near as good and its point cost stayed the same? I mean Tau plasma technology is easily the equilvant to eldars now. Which it definitely shouldnt be that way! Eldar use to be the master of plasma, and tau can atleast have a bs 4 person shooting there nice weapons. It feels like space marines totally highjacked the eldar codex and whined enough to get everything they wanted. I really truely believe this codex falls short.

I know many of you guys will say well, you cant compare one army to another and most compare the army in context to itself. I honestly dont understand people that say that. Because rarely does ur army ever face itself. Maybe we're not marines with bs4 or Toughness 4 or neat little 3+ saves but to compensate for that we have to have something. Massive firepower that can melt away that armor. I know alot of eldar players here at home that are reading these forums and are just litterally disgusted. Eldar armys will change in another direction and we are going to see little variation in lists just like last time.

Hq's
Once people start to notice the Autrarch is a joke he wont be taken
So we will see Farseers (with the great T of 3 which stinks not only because perils of the warp but because they arent as effective in combat now many things in the 40k universe will slaughter them)
But they will still probably be taken because of their powers
Might see an avatar every now and then
Though I have heard some nice things about Prince Yriel if they are true I suspect he will be the new mainstay Eldar Hq (along with a farseer of course!)

Elites

Every list will have ATLEAST one squard of harlequins
and ATLEAST another of fire dragons (u'd be foolish not too)
Banshees and Scorpians will be neglected (shame they have good models now)

Troops

We are going to see dire avengers
10 man Guardian squads with with either Missile lauchers, Scatter lasers, or Brightlances
3 man jetbikes with a warlock and 1 shuricannon
possibly Pathfinders too (depending if they did anything with the points) (though I would definitley field a squad)

Fast attack

Vipers are gone! Out of the picture, Marine landspeeders and tau piranha's are superior (imo and many others)
Warpspiders are interesting, but will probably see the same amount of play as they use too (which isnt much)
We will probably see 1 swooping hawk unit in many lists.
Many people will probably try out shinning spears but still debatable weather they are worth fielding

Hvy support

Falcons are still amazing and will see atleast 1 in every list
Fire prisms are nice and will probably see 1 or 2 in most lists
Wraithlord is just sad, having a points increase and getting wraith sight hurts to much, Now we need a lock to baby sit furhter uping his points. Which is just great. GG marine whinies
Dark Reapers wont see much action between prisms and falcons, and they no longer get screened by other troops thanks to new rule book
Warwalkers will see some action but not much again because prims and falcons are better


In total the list is the same pretty much, they nerfed somethings that didnt need it, (personally I think starcannons should have had a limited number of units that can take them and be the same as now), Striking Scorps needed to stay str4 because now that pfist isnt worth it anymore and the farseers toughness going down a notch are among the most annoying issues.

For the record, star cannons are far from nerfed. Star cannons were once 50 points where as now they are 25. If they kill one termie or two space marines, they have more than made up for the points paid for a starcannon. It has one reduced shot and is far cheaper now. Boohoo. The scatter laser is indeed a better buy for firepower, but it does not gaurantee armor penetration of highly armored infantry. For the points, it is still a very superior weapon.

The rearrangement in stats is indeed a odd thing, but in keeping with eldar frailty, it makes sense if for nothing else but fluff. There are many ways to divert their frailty. By keeping the superior amount of firepower.

Sorry your not happy, but maybe you should play with them first before poopooing it entriely? Of course you will, you play eldar.

Hellfury, I was under the impression that the starcannon weapons platform runs 50 pts, including the 2 crewmen. No pts change. Stats decrease by 33%. Unless they somehow run 25 pts each as you assert.

Wraithlord: Down to 30 pts, but wraithlord up to 90 pts, bringing it to no pts change. Stats decrease by 33%.

Falcon: Down to 35 pts, but Holofield up to 35 pts. Spirit Stones constant, while Falcon 5 pts less. -5 pts net pts change for Starcannon + Holofield + Spirit Stones Falcon. Falcon shootability reduced by someone number incalculable while I am drunk. Starcannon stats decrease by 33%.

I don't know, Hellfury. Sure as hell looks bad overall unless Starcannons somehow drop by 25 pts (which you alone appear to have heard is happening).

Unless the rumours I read were wrong, the starcannon is now 25 points.

You look me in the eye with a straight face and tell me the wraithlord wasnt undercosted in the first place. Stats on the wraithlord stay the same.

I am not the only one to have read this, in fact, if this bit hasnt been deleted in the thread yet, here is the link.

www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/40/view/Topic/postid/93653/Default.aspx

The above is all I could find, but I have saved what was on page 19 of this thread before it got deleted.

Shuriken Cannon:         as it is now but       A3          5pts
Scatter Laser:                as it is now but       H4        15pts
Eldar Missile Launcher:  Same stat line as it is         20pts
Bright Lance:                as it is now                           30pts
Starcannon:                   as it is now but       H2         25pts
Pulse Laser:                  as it is now but       H2
Fire Prism:                   As in its Vehicle description

Dont know how accurate it is, as this is what lazarus posted. I am just going by what I read.

The WL was undercosted in 3rd ed? Yep.

But 4th? I think it was right on target, at least once the 4th ed marine dex arrived with the asscan.

As far as weapon platforms, I think those were particularly for vehicles, as opposed to guardian squads. Specifically for vehciles. Not guardian squads. But it's been quite some time---and I'm drunk. But in vino veritas, damnit! I swear to God I remember it correctly.  I swear: vehicles are 25 pts, but squads are something around 50.  Really.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Hellfury </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Dont know how accurate it is, as this is what lazarus posted. I am just going by what I read

Tamashi's roundup has proved pretty accurate. Perhaps someone with access to a dex can confirm some of this....I was pondering my current mech list.....

I recently had someone price my new falcon build with a scatter laser, shuriken cannon upgrade, holo field, stones and vectored engines....I believe it came to 205 which is just slightly less than my current 210 w/ the star cannon. Sure, I lose the star cannon but I'll make up that firepower elsewhere in the list and I gain a more survivable tank with a guaranteed 9 shots per turn. My spirit stones never shook ofmuch damage so they don't seem like that much of a nerf to me and on the few times they did my tank would miss. The sheer strength of my list is the resilience and it just got better at that. I look forward to mounting star engines on the falcons so I can grab objectives from 36" away.....that's just amazing and will make my tank only cost a total of 15 points more than it did in the last codex (225)

Star cannon & brightlance vypers went up in price which will effectively remove them from most people's lists....however, I'm curious to know how much a vyper with scatter laser & shuriken cannon upgrade is? It used to cost 75 in our current dex and was awesome for popping light vehicles and such...perhaps it will be cheaper and still have a place with 7 str 6 shots....

Jetbikes as troops leads to lots of options for me. Keeps nicely with the mech theme and adds even more speed to the list.  I think I can coax some tank busting out of these guys and capturing objectives will be a breeze.

I'll likely keep my prism in the list as it simply gets better....no other way to look at it. I also no longer need a seer to babysit that thing so more points are either saved or resources are shifted to where needed. The dispersed shot gives me a nice little boost against light infantry giving the tank some much needed versatility. I'll likely add the cannon upgrade as they are so cheap now. Nice to have a backup weapon and it's that much more of VP denial...

I'll likely be removing my scorps & seer in the serpent due to changes in the new codex as well as the FAQ nerfing powers in transports. Harlequins will now be the default choice. Banshees (already using) will be even better with the addition of doom. I only wish I could justify using an avatar in this list (lol)

Autarch is still going to be a tough choice for me. I really want him for the +1 reserves as I play escalation at least once in every tourney but a second doom seer looks awesome as well. Haven't given the phoenix lords much thought as they seem awfully expensive to field.

I was already  using avengers and they got even better. Problem is I think I'll be better off with jetbikes overall in the list....I'll have to do some playtesting with this though before I decide for sure.

I'm curious to know who will be using hawks? I love the idea of haywire grenades and their ability to deliver them to target with a good threat range is appealing.....however, they are soo fragile I'd be scared of artilllery ending them before I got to use them. My scorps took out a demolisher on saturdays ironman tourney with haywire greandes (I'll miss that)

Overall, I think that my mech list gets stronger and much more survivable as well as faster. Whats' not to like? It won't look exactly the same as before but that's not always a bad thing either.  

Lazarus.

 

 

Agreed, Chris, about the Wraithlord. He just wasn't all that in 4th. Heck, he really stopped being a problem once the trial assault rules came out and every squad with a powerfist trumped him.

I'm interested in seeing about the guardian playforms. The old StC was 50pts including 2 crew. So functionally 34 for just the gun.

Of course, you also have to look at the practical cost of fielding one. Even if it's only 25 pts now, with a minimum squad size of 10, you're looking at a minimum cost of 125 to get an infantry StC which shoots less than it used to, and is still BS3. The old minimum was 90pts (I liked my small squads 9 strong, totaling 106). I used to field maybe three squads with Starcannons for around 300pts. Now it's going to be closer to 400 and put out six shots instead of nine. Any way you slice it, that's a big hit. I could see one change or the other, certainly, but both seems a lttle odd.

I think the codex is certainly going to be playable, but the I'm not sure some of the changes really make sense.

Maybe I'm missing some points:

10 Guardians 80 points
Starcannon 25 points
Total 105

Also of note: The crew (from rumors poste) are taken from Guardians, not an addition so it can be 10 total Guardians with the Starcannon. So, if you are looking at 34 points for the Starcannon, and it is now 25, it seems just barely overpriced. NOTE: Assuming all the rumors are true.

315 points for 30 Guardians and 3 Starcannons; don't know how viable it will still be, but something to consider. Also of note, it appears we can get Waveserpents and put all the Guardians in. That can be a lot of concentrated fire and mobile fire to boot.

Personally, I'm not sure how many Starcannons I'm going to take anyways. With a Scatterlaser putting out 4 shots, it may be the way to just saturate your target unit and force torrent of fire saves among all the other saves. It's going to be interesting playing the new Codex.

The one thing I can't understand is the increased points for Vypers w/ Starcannons and Brightlances. The one thing that made them really ugly was the CTM, but now it is no longer. Why then the expensive Vypers?

US WD322 had some interesting points costs in the Eldar Battle Report:

12 Guardians with Star Cannon = 121 points

2 War Walkers with 2 Star Cannons Each = 160 points

Wraithlord with Brightlance = 130 points

Vyper with S. Cannon = 50 points



Take with that what you will. It looks like a Vyper with Scatter lazer and S. Cannon will be around 60-70 points, not bad if you ask me.

"For the record, star cannons are far from nerfed. Star cannons were once 50 points where as now they are 25."

Maybe if they cost 25 and still came with the two extra wounds... uhh... I mean crew, for the squad, then maybe. All that price reduction did was remove two Guardians and some change.

BYE

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

US WD322 had some interesting points costs in the Eldar Battle Report:

12 Guardians with Star Cannon = 121 points

2 War Walkers with 2 Star Cannons Each = 160 points

Wraithlord with Brightlance = 130 points

Vyper with S. Cannon = 50 points

The wraithlord seems pretty cheap as it is only 10 points more than before. I was lead to understand it was a more substantial price hike....perhaps wraithsight is part of that "hike"...

The guardian cost is nearly  the same as current but now you get one less shot on the cannon. 9 points cheaper for one less shot...hmmm, does anyone know if you can still arm your weapon crew with close combat weapons & pistols? I always liked to do that as you really only lost a single str4 shoit when shooting but gained a couple of close combat attacks....

Take with that what you will. It looks like a Vyper with Scatter lazer and S. Cannon will be around 60-70 points, not bad if you ask me.

Currently they are 75 for that setup and a decent deal. cheaper would certianly make them viable in this new codex. Luckily I already have 3 of them set up that way in my standard mech list.

Lazarus.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 10/17/2006 12:41 AM
The WL was undercosted in 3rd ed? Yep.

But 4th? I think it was right on target, at least once the 4th ed marine dex arrived with the asscan.

As far as weapon platforms, I think those were particularly for vehicles, as opposed to guardian squads. Specifically for vehciles. Not guardian squads. But it's been quite some time---and I'm drunk. But in vino veritas, damnit! I swear to God I remember it correctly.  I swear: vehicles are 25 pts, but squads are something around 50.  Really.

You could very well be right about the squad upgrade cost. I dont ever recall seeing anything other than the prices I listed, and that was from 4 different sources (here, warseer, librarium, dysartes) but then again, the sources might be the same person too.

And I do agree fully that 4th ed wraithlords, with the price they paid for the wepons they had was far better than what was around for 3rd. Lets do some math now that youve sobered up a bit.

3rd ed wraithlord with starcannon was: 120 pts.

The 4th ed rumoured wraithlord with same build (first price is therions rumours, second price is lazarus' rumours)
120 pts /115pts. (but the price is increased with the need of a warlock or even more expensive spiritseer babysitter, which makes sense technically, but it just makes it cost more overall) but you also now have the option of purchasing two weapons (though I would not recommend the same wepon as twin linking is simply over costed across the board for all codices)

I think that price increase for this edition was just to keep the MEq players from flooding GW with whining complaints to be honest.

Over all, considering how units support each other in the list in 4th ed, I would say that the wraithlord has slightly increased in cost as opposed to effectiveness.

I still reserve the right to eat major crow, as this is all based on rumours. I am not defending them, just pointing out that poopooing this stuff is pointless until we have a codex in our paws and play some games with them.

I'm surprized people are complaining about a Str 6 AP2 Heavy 2 Gun.

At 25 Points, it's quite worth it, besides can't you make a Falcon or some of the firing platforms effectively BS4?

Even if it competes with a 4 Shot Str 6 gun with negligable AP, when fired by a BS3 model the Starcannon will win out against MEQ's every time. Having a large number of high strength shots with little to no AP isn't going to help against things with 2+ saves, and it's not like you don't see a lot of Terminators or Big Nids with 2+ saves running around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is why wouldn't you take the starcannon, even if it was only 2 shots now?

VoodooBoyz: I believe that the majority of the information points to BS4 being available only for prisms, which makes any benefit of BS4 moot.

Things are best shown on a "shots per point" basis since BS doesn't enter into things.

Based on old points vs new points for -min- starcannon (minimum squad size vs body parity due to maximization of returns...) the new guardian starcannon platform is actually 42.85% worse than the old one on a points / shot basis.

Based on the new starcannon vyper rumoured to be 70 points, the new vyper is 38% less effective on a points / shot basis.

Based on Therion's rumourset, the Wraithlord is effectively 33.3% worse on a points / shot basis (the intangible being that it needs a baby-sitter to be 100% effective, otherwise there is a hidden factor which bumps it up to 40% worse.)

Based on the new starcannon warwalker rumoured to be 80 points, (and from memory of the old one costing 120 points...) the new warwalker has the -same- points / shot ratio as the old one. Fancy that!!!

So I think it is quite obvious where GW is forci... ahem... encouraging us to go in terms of gameplay.

Versus MEQ's:

Star Cannon
2 Shots, 1 Hit (50%), .83 AP2 Wounds (83%)

S. Cannon
3 Shots, 1.5 Hit (50%), 1.25 Wounds (83%), .41 Failed Saves (33%)

Scatter Laser
4 Shots, 2 Hit (50%), 1.66 Wounds (83%), .55 Failed Saves (33%)



The old Star Cannon killed 1.245 versus the news .83, however the Star Cannon is still the best MEQ killer on a gun per gun baises, but considering you can get the same kill ratio on two S. Cannons for slightly less points is the reason you won't see very many Star Cannons in 4th Edition Eldar. The best bet for the Star Cannon is War Walkers (max shots in one unit) and Wave Serpents (twin-linked), 160 points on the two War Walkers you get 3.32 MEQ kills a turn before Doom and Guide.

Well yes obviously the previous Starcannon platforms are going to go down in effectiveness per points cost, but I dare you to look at me with a straight face and tell me that the gun wasn't hyper effective for the points before that? I mean people designed GT winning armies using that as the primary infantry gun with a few Lances scattered around for anti-tank.

I don't mean to pick on Eldar players, I'd say the exact same thing to Marine players (me being one of them) complaining if/when GW nerfs the assault cannon to 3 shots or takes away rending. It's something that needed nerfing.

Honestly you can throw starcannons on BS4 models (wraithlord should still be BS4) or on resilient ones (Falcons, skimmers in general) and use the Scatter laser on cheaper more disposable things to thin out hoards.

And honestly you can't tell me that you're not going to use the gun a whole lot, what are you more likely to run into a hoard of Gaunts or Orks or a bunch of 2+ Save Terminators or a Flyrant with Warp Field?

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Voodoo Boyz </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

but I dare you to look at me with a straight face and tell me that the gun wasn't hyper effective for the points before that? I mean people designed GT winning armies using that as the primary infantry gun with a few Lances scattered around for anti-tank.

Something to consider: If the entire galaxy didn't walk around in power armour we might see more diversity in the lists. Approximatly 75% of all my opponents in tourney play are MEQ's and with this in mind it would be foolish for me not to prepare for them in some fashion.

I don't mean to pick on Eldar players, I'd say the exact same thing to Marine players (me being one of them) complaining if/when GW nerfs the assault cannon to 3 shots or takes away rending. It's something that needed nerfing.

If it was being nerfed strictly for game balance I'd be completely cool with it. Since most acknowledge that the assault cannon could use the same attention now they should release a FAQ changing it in the name of balance and fair play....instead it's simply marketing and we'll endure years more abuse (lol).

Honestly you can throw starcannons on BS4 models (wraithlord should still be BS4) or on resilient ones (Falcons, skimmers in general) and use the Scatter laser on cheaper more disposable things to thin out hoards.

I do utilize scatter lasers on vypers...the problem is that you will not survive long to try and thin out any hordes (lol). Especially now that the CTM is gone. At my last GT I faced 5 straight MEQ lists and I certianly wished at times that I had more than the 2 star cannons that I was using that day. (lol)

Lazarus.

I'm still looking at the fact that I can put the weapon platforms inside Wave Serpents. It will now be easier to throw in the Shuriken Catapult fire as well as the weapon platform, and you still have the Wave Serpent yet to fire.

People scoff at Guardians in Wave Serpents and tend to ignore them in favor of shooting the Eldar gunboats (Falcon). I've had pretty good success with Guardians and Warlock w/ Destructor lighting up a unit. Now add in the weapons platform.

For myself, that's worth the 'nerfing' of the Starcannon.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/17/2006 1:11 PM
I'm surprized people are complaining about a Str 6 AP2 Heavy 2 Gun.

At 25 Points, it's quite worth it, besides can't you make a Falcon or some of the firing platforms effectively BS4?

Even if it competes with a 4 Shot Str 6 gun with negligable AP, when fired by a BS3 model the Starcannon will win out against MEQ's every time. Having a large number of high strength shots with little to no AP isn't going to help against things with 2+ saves, and it's not like you don't see a lot of Terminators or Big Nids with 2+ saves running around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is why wouldn't you take the starcannon, even if it was only 2 shots now?

To be honest, as a deathwing player I would much rather go up against a eldar army who uses nothing but starcannons. I still get an invulnerable save.

I fear taking armor saves. Thats why I hate IG. Yeah, they use flashlights, but they still wound and cause me to take the bucket of dice out and roll umpteen million saves.

I fear the scatterlaser far more than the starcannon, as it has the same strength, but pours out twice the amount of firepower. At the eldar's BS of 3, I think it much more likely to take out termies through scatterlasers.

Put starcannons on a bs4 vehicle, and all bets are off.