Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Posted By Therion- on 10/08/2006 6:44 PM
What exactly are Striking Scorpions paying for?

Not being marines?

What justifies that a S3 T3 model with 5+ armour save and a lasgun costs 21 points?

It's not a marine?

All Eldar armies will still look like copies of eachother, the only difference to the previous armies being that everyone has to buy new models.

Then the codex is a success!

And comedy rears its ugly head...

Asside from the GW bashing this thread is enevitable going to go into, I decided to address some of the tactical considerations brought up by Bigchris1313...





Wraithlords in my mind do have potential. My load out will be Scatter Laser, Shuirken Cannon. You could have fun and run a "Eldarzilla" list with three Wraithlord collectively throwing out 21 STR. 6 shots a turn have them run with an Avatar attached to a Seer Council (by the new codex standard). Therefore you have a whole lot of toughness 8 and 6 wounds and are garunteed to have a Spirit Seer nearby that is untargetable because the Wriathlords are in the way. Furthermore Wraithlord should be fun in CoD, immagine one holding a Medicare Building.



I think small units of bike are a little too fragile, even with an invulnerable saves you are really only looking at the equivalent of 3 Space Marines moving really fast. My two troop choices will probably be a unit of 10 DA without Exarch in a Scatter Laser, S. Cannon Wave Serpent and a unit of 6 Bikes with 2 S. Cannons. A little more survivable and a lot of move and shoot Heavy Weapons. I would keep the DA mounted almost all game so they can take objectives.



The Scatter Laser almost always wins out in my mind for one reason, range. With the new ruling regarding vehicles fireing from the weapon, vehicle mounted Scatter Lazers always wins out. Not so much on the Wraithlord, but almost anything else you buy an extra attack for cost ten points so it isn't that big of deal. The AP issue doesn't matter much because I am not to worried if a GEQ has to make a bunch of 5+ saves. Besides, I think it would be a waste shooting Falcon and Wraithlord weapons at GEQ squads anyways, thats what bikes and DA are for.

I'm very (x2) disappointed by this codex. In the first stages (aka first rumours) the codex wasn't looking that bad at all:
The Aspects seemed to be streamlines so everyone had it's niche, the Dire Avengers would be the basic, yet decent, troop type. Jetbikes would be better ect.ect...

But what happened?

The one thing that pisses me off the most is the sudden appearance of the halies. Nothing against their fluff but, as already said, they are simply superior to the other aspect choices... How wants to take scorpions or harlies from a performance standpoint? (I will due to style reasons...)

Agree with a lot of posters here: Nothing really new (Psychic powers, change of aspects (Warp spiders for example!) and just a shifttowards other powerhorses... SAD!

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. I'm reading H.B.M.C.'s Eldar codex now...I will see what i can out of it.

"P.S. I'm reading H.B.M.C.'s Eldar codex now...I will see what i can out of it."

We've found that things in our Eldar Codex tend to be very... expensive. Taking cheaper choices when your only transport is 100 points before weapons makes life difficult for smaller Eldar armies.

BYE

Something else I want to bring up, Falcon versus Fire Prism:

This is one of my favorite things about the new codex, as GW has really made a tough decision in choosing. A lot of people are argueing that the Falcon is a no brainer, well lets see...

Falcon with Pulse Laser, Scatter laser, and S. Cannon Versus MEQ's

Pulse Laser 2 Shots, 1 Hit (50%), .83 Wounds (83%), Ingnors Saves so .83 Dead
Scatter Laser 4 Shots, 2 Hit (50%), 1.66 Wound (83%), 0.55 Failed Saves (33%)
S. Cannon 3 Shots, 1.5 Hit (50%), 1.25 Wound (83%), 0.41 Failed Save (33%)

= for a grand total of 1.79 dead MEQ

Fire prism with S. Cannon Upgrade

Prism Cannon 1 Shot (Wide Spread), .66 Hit (66%), Template covers an average of four so four hit, 2.4 Wounds (66%), 0.79 Failed Save (33%)
or Prism Cannon 1 Shot (condensed Shoot), .66 Hit (66%), Template covers an average of one and two partials so 2 hit, 1.66 Wounds (83%) with no save
S. Cannon 3 Shots, 1.98 Hit (66%), 1.64 Wound (83%), 0.54 Failed Save (33%)

= for a grand total of 1.33 on Wide Shoot, or 2.2 on condensed.

So we know it's (rough) kill potential, let examine their pros and cons (in comparison to one another):

Falcon

Pros:
Transport Compasity
More Reliable Wounding

Cons:
BS3
Lack of high number of low AP shoots (best you can get is four with Puls Laser and Star Cannon)

Fire Prism

Pros:
BS4
Rewards taking multiples

Cons:
Random Wounding (template rules)
No transport Compasity



I dunno, it seems like a tougher choice to me. It would really depend on the rest of the army composition. Do I need the Falcon transport compasity? Do I have points to take two Prisms? Bottom line is that it does give us an equal choice.

Posted By Mahu on 10/09/2006 6:06 AM
Asside from the GW bashing this thread is enevitable going to go into, I decided to address some of the tactical considerations brought up by Bigchris1313...
 

Its because GW can't win...  if they had made a powerhouse codex for the Eldar everyone would have been up in arms against GW for that, they didnt' make a powerhouse codex, they basically streamlined what the Eldar already are because they still had a very competitive 7 year old codex and they still get slammed for it.  I think the codex sounds about right for the Eldar and I'm excited to start em up for the 2nd time.

Jumpin Jebus on a pogo stick, Harlequins are nasty! How much does the harly's kiss cost per model? So theyve got fleet, a 5+ invuln, a bunch of vet skills, for a couple of points can get rending, and for a couple of more points they cant be shot at until theyre in assault range. WTF? Where are my genestealer's vet skills? For 20 pts a model I get a 4+ armor save and none of the other crap. What did my stealers do to deserve this?

And is the 6 wraithlord thing true? If it is it totally trumps the nid godzilla army. 6 monstrous creatures with good melee and good AP weapons vs 6 low point carnifexes w guns that can occasionally penetrate skin. Oh and the little guys behind them are better than genestealers. Yippee, sign me up for that.

I think the Fire Prism still loses in the end. First of all sometimes it's not easy at all to have the large template cover 4 models. If the opponent spaces his models properly and has 2" between them small blast templates hit 1 model and large templates 2 models. In my opinion GW did the right thing in improving Fire Prisms drastically, as atleast some people will now use them, but I know I'll start my Eldar army by building 3 Falcons and a couple squads of Fire Dragons. Eldar tanks get shaken easily and as such they are not perfect gun platforms but they are excellent transports. In addition, although only one in 36 glances will destroy an Eldar holo-field tank, they still suffer from plenty of weapon destroyed results and as the Falcon has more guns it wins in this respect too.

BigChris: What worries me about the Autarch is that he is instantly killed by Shuriken Cannons, Scatter Lasers, Assault Cannons etc after he fails one save, and he isn't exactly cheap firepower if you just plan to 'JSJ' with the Reaper Launcher. I do love the +1 to reserves though.

I know that I will start with the Falcon, but the Prism is very cool too. I know a compbined shoot is death to Drop Podders, or two individually can put a hurting on deep striking terminators. So essentially you are looking at either A) you oponent is walking towards you so they are less effective, or B) they are using a movement that forces them to be crowded, which the Prism starts to shine. Not to mention how fun it would be to take to Fire Prisms against a Gaurd Army using close order drill. I can see myself using 2 Prisnms and a Falcon as a good one-two punch later down the line.



I think the Autarch lives for support roles. He looks like he is better of supporting an Aspect Squad with an Exarch than anything else, imagine getting 3 Reaper Shots in before your Spears charge!

I like the New Codex and look forward to taking the Eldar to Adepticon.

As cool as the combined shot of the prism sounds I won't really use more than one. Falcons still seem to be a no brainer and harlequins on foot w/ seer will replace my scorpions and seer in a serpent.....

 

I'll be playtesting in the next few days..

Lazarus.

I am not looking at the Prism just for it's combined shot. I like the flexibility that the tank has, facing Gaunts, two spread shots own it. Facing a lot of Terminators, two concerntrated burst own them. Facing Drop Pods, Combinded shot all the way. Facing Necrons, well now I have two Str. 9 shots to face those Monoliths with, or I would just leave the liths to my Fire Dragons as the Prism combine shoot them to death, or combine shot with a STR 10!

I could be off here, but it is certainly an option.

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="Normal">Posted By</td> <td>Mahu </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

I am not looking at the Prism just for it's combined shot.

Yeah, it's great on it's own but I'm still not sold on using two of them as independant units. A weapon destroted result renders the tank largely useless and it doesn't have the ability to transport units....you have to have something  to do on the rounds that you are shaken right?

well now I have two Str. 9 shots to face those Monoliths with, or I would just leave the liths to my Fire Dragons as the Prism combine shoot them to death, or combine shot with a STR 10!

Just ignore the monolith (joke)...sort of like trying to ignore the fact that you are on fire...lol

Hawks / dragons can handle that job now. By themselves prisms are still just lascannons so I wouldn't count on much there...I'm still skeptical about using up two heavy choices for a single shot.

I'll certianly use a single prism in my list though. Great times ahead!

Lazarus.

are they making a 100% plastic prism? or are we still going to have the same one? Not that i don't like the current one, its probably my favorite looking tank in all of 40k, but it'd be nice to have something that wasn't so top heavy

Drop pods are going to do a number on the ubiquitous 30 clown army from hell. I was already fond of dual-flamer pods. If you cover six marines, a flamer is just as good as a plasma gun, doesn't keep you from charging, and doesn't overheat.

Quick math comparison: say 10 man squad of fortuned Harlequins, vs. 8 man drop pod with two flamers, and vet sergeant (one of the configurations I tend to use).

11 bolter/bolt pistol shots. x 2/3 to hit = 7.33 hits
give each flamer six hits (not hard to do, and I've gotten much more) = 12 hits

19.33 Strength 4 hits vs. Tough 3 = 12.88 wounds
12.88*2/3 (5++)= 8.6 dead clowns if on their own
8.6 x 2/3 = 5.7 dead clowns if fortuned

So just one drop pod is going to do a number on walking ninja clowns. 12.88 wounds means I get a torrent of fire roll as well. Now just imagine two pods hitting one squad as they often do.

Did they get a webway porthole in this version?

If so that would change a lot of things.

2 min jet bike squads, 3 max harli squads and an avatar or farseer.

No webway portal. Old news.

"exarch / aspect gear, but no exarch powers, which kind of surprised me, but I guess it keeps you from taking EVERYTHING for your superhero."

So the Autarch CAN use Exarch weapons?

Mandiblaster+Executioner for 4 s5 power weapon attacks
Mandiblaster+Mirrorblades+ccw for 6 s3 power weapon attacks
Mandiblaster+scorpion claw+pistol 5 s6 powerfist attacks.

Firepike on a jetbike

too bad those nifty Exarch boosting powers are gone now. Burning Fist had cool imagery around it, a big psychic punch that can bust power armor.

Harlies sound really nice but I still think that they fall much too easily to alot of really prevalent unit out there in competitive armies (or units that can be easily modified to become anit-harli).

Marines have drop pod units for rapid firing, assault squads with flamers, tornados, whirlwinds (castellan mines - HELLO!) FoTA

IG don't really fear them too much if played well because conscripts or line squads can take the charge and after *ahem* valiantly offering their lives have the 4 flamer command squads or even line squad with rapid firing lasguns come in and clean up. Indirect ordinance... nuff said. Hellhounds. Suicide Drop Squads with demo charges

Tau- stealth suits, fish of fury, sms?

Eldar- dire avenger serpent of fury, just the pure number of S6 shots available to fast moving eldar units (Warp spiders, falcons, serpents, jetbikes)

Dark Eldar- wyches- have better save once in combat, will probably charge (webway raider) maybe cheaper (sorry don't know much about DE)

Sisters- seraphim with hand flamers, dominions, regular sisters with drive by heavy flamings, Spirit of the Martyr.

Running harlies at a gun line just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. It may be but I'm just not convinced. Alot of armies bring stuff to deal with hordes and it all works against harlies... except you have to be within 14" and your target costs about as much as an assault marine. Counter-assault and they work fine, but running into guns... not so much.

I'd rather take the fire dragons to ride in falcons. Those are points that aren't being given up unless they've taken something big down with them.

the good thing about the harlies is the death jester. 24" range pinning cannon, so the harlies can sit outside of any shooting range (with help of the veil) and pelt until you come to them drop pods can be dealt with like always...

You're going to stand still with a 200pt unit firing a single 24" range S6 AP5 gun hoping for pinning?

sure, i'm crazy like that

it is 3 shots now, i'm just saying that if i'm looking at witch elves or something that i know i'm going to have to really deal with, the Death Jester isn't a bad idea to have around to pin if i can

Posted By Mannahnin on 10/09/2006 6:56 PM
You're going to stand still with a 200pt unit firing a single 24" range S6 AP5 gun hoping for pinning?

Word on the street is that it's now assault 3, but even if you can move, you're still giving up your fleet roll.   Of course, that hardly justifies giving up 3.5" of movement per turn in the name of pinning.  Pinning.  Hah!

I'm trying to reserve judgement until I see the Codex, but I am already concerned with what I've read.

Fire Prism = a better Hammerhead Railgun?

I was already disappointed in the new Tau Codex, but now...now there's a non-Space Marine army with more mobile firepower AND assault capability? Why play Tau!?

Which brings me to my next post: 1 Tau army for sale - cheap.

fire prism hasn't changed at all on its own... it's only changed when you couple it up with another one. 2 Hammerheads can still dish out enough to give 2 prisms a fight.

Posted By Furious on 10/09/2006 11:06 PM
I'm trying to reserve judgement until I see the Codex, but I am already concerned with what I've read.

Fire Prism = a better Hammerhead Railgun?

I was already disappointed in the new Tau Codex, but now...now there's a non-Space Marine army with more mobile firepower AND assault capability? Why play Tau!?

Which brings me to my next post: 1 Tau army for sale - cheap.

that's two prisms though, 260pts minimum (and nobody fields them bare), and if you destroy one of those 12/12/10 skimmers they can't charge up.

Also, aren't the rules for laying blast templates in such a way that Heavy1 shots are better for penetrating vehicles?

Did you know?:
in 2nd ed, the Fire Prism was the 'railgun' of 40k, it had more penetration dice than any other weapon (I think...)

It used to be BS3. But that BS4 makes a world of difference now, doeasn't it?

Eldar get a BS 4 heavy, with a small template/large template weapon that can be improved further for even more MEQ death. The STR9 AP2 Small blast is quite nice (as it should be easy enough to get two MEQs or terminators under the template), but double up and you get AP3 under a large template? WOW. Not to mention that you're only putting one vehicle at risk to make it happen. "If a second Fire Prism has line of sight to the tank and supports the beam" means, in my mind, that both tanks can begin the turn out of LOS. One tank moves to establish LOS to the enemy while the other remains in LOS to the firing Fire Prisim and out of LOS to the enemy. So with two Fire Prisims you get either two BS4 small template shots or one "around the corner" large template shot - both area effect weaponry, both anti-MEQ goodness. And, might I add, possibly the anti-Drop Pod list answer...

So why play Tau now?

I first want to address the idea of a Shuricannon on a Fire Prism which someone had a few posts back: no. The Fire Prism is for staying 60" away and unloading, not for getting within 24" of anything. So don't bother with that upgrade: it's going to be wasted pts.

Secondly, the uber-plasma cannon on the FP isn't for whacking run of the mill terminators as they trudge around the board (as if they ever are!). It's best utilized against DSers. Those Termies are bunched up, and then it's showtime and you get to unload with 1 full and 4 partials. Unfortunately, the assault cannon is the best gun in the game against Eldar skimmers, so it's going to be tough to position your forces such that you can protect your Fire Prisms, if that's even possible. Because if they get a single glancing hit against either of them, it's game over and you won't be shooting until the termies have had a chance to spread out.

I still think the Falcon is going to be a better buy. I just don't have much faith in a single BS4 shot. But that is what Tau players get, as has been pointed out, so maybe the idea is worth a try.

Railguns are also S10 AP1 or S6 AP4, and Hammerheads are Av13 - means they're a lot more likely to get to shoot their gun.

There's a large gap between penetrating landraiders on a 4 and penetrating landraiders on a 6, and a larger gap between shooting and not shooting.

Same same for wounding T4 on 2s and wounding on 3s (S6 pie v. S5 pie).

You don't buy Eldar Av12 tanks with the expectation you will get to shoot them. They're simply too easy to glance and ignore. The strength of the holofield is that it makes you tough enough to get close and unload troops, tank shock things, shoot lots of close range guns, and draw (and absorb) lots of fire.

Fire prisms are OK for VP denial I guess, but I'd rather have a useful transport.

I got to read the codex mid last week here in Australia but the demands of final exams for my medical degree hampered my spreading the word.

Thanks for the review Therion.

The first unit that jumped out was the harlies followed by the new improved fire prisms.

Good to see they helped some of the truely lame units, but its a shame they missed the opportunity to make all units useful.