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Yes, but the Starcannon has literally double the chances of killing a Terminator (T4, 2+/5+) of the Scatterlaser, reguardless of the BS of the model firing it.

BS3 Model
Scatter Laser - 27% Chance of Killing a Terminator
Star Cannon - 55% Chance of Killing a Terminator

BS4 Model
Scatter Laser - 37% Chance of killing a Terminator
Star Cannon - 74% Chance of killing a Terminator

If the eldar takes enough guns (and they will take lots and lots of Starcannons, in my estimation of the guns available), you'll still have to roll a lot of saves and it'll be 5+ saves, not 2+. And I'd much rather take a 2+ Save than a 5+ save any day of the week.

Oddly enough things really start to get interesting when fighting Power Armored MEQ's, the Star Cannon is 1.5 Times more effective than the Scatter Laser at killing MEQ's:

BS3 Model
Scatter Laser - 55% Chance of killing an MEQ
Star Cannon - 83% Chance of killing an MEQ

BS4 Model
Scatter Laser - 74% Chance of killing an MEQ
Star Cannon - 111% Chance of killing an MEQ

Now the only real downside of the Star Cannon vs the Scatter Laser is that for MEQ's in 5+ Cover they are equal.

I'm sure I can hear the cries of how terrible this is for the Star Cannon, but looking at the tournament tables and from my own experience it's near impossible to have all your line squads of MEQ's huddled in 5+ cover as there's never enough in your deployment zone to use all of.

I still predict that the Star Cannon will be used quite a bit in the new dex. It's a Strength 6 AP2 Gun with two shots, it's still very very good. Besides it's supposed to be the Eldar Plasma Cannon and the Plasma Cannon took a nerf in 4th ed so now it's the Eldars turn. :p

The underlying problem the starcannon now faces is where it fits within the Eldar list as a whole. In theory the eldar heavy weapons break down like this:

starcannon: MEQ killer
scatter laser: horde killer
bright lance: vehicle killer
missile launcher: multipurpose

The problem in 3rd edition was that the starcannon, with it's large number of shots, also functioned as a good weapon against hordes while still being perfect against MEQs. This led to people running heavy starcannon lists that would give a MEQ army fits while also taking out the harder elements of most hordes. This complimented with aspect warriors (scorpions and banshees) that were perfectly suited for mopping up leftover elements of hordes.

The problem in 4th edition is that there are already very good anti MEQ units available. Most have acknowledged that the fire dragons, harlequins, and falcons will be the strongest units in the Eldar codex. All of these are well suited to taking out MEQs. The scatter laser, while not as good against MEQs in the open as starcannons, still does a descent job against them while being perfectly suited for taking out hordes. All of this for 15 pts less. Why am I going to pay 105 pts. for 10 guardians to babysit a 2 shot MEQ weapon when I already have all the anti MEQ taken care of?

Essentially the starcannon has the problem of being a decent weapon but not being able to compete with the other options that are suited for the same purpose. I won't be surprised if the scatter laser becomes the HW choice of the Eldar with falcons, fire dragons, and harlequins (with the kiss of course) being used as the focused anti MEQ elements of the list.

VoodooBoyz:

It is common knowledge that:

Eldar are deficient in small arms that fire R24"-R12" - the only option being the lasblaster

Other than the WL, HS Tanks, Avatar (arguablY) and Fortuned Seer HQ, the Eldar lack reslience.

What does this mean for an Eldar general?

If using fragile units, strike first and strike hard because you can't win a war of attrition. Use numbers and redundancy due to low LD and toughness. Hide behind terrain when possible.  It also means that to cover the area outside of 12", you HAVE to use heavy weapons.

- The starcannon adjustment means that the mainstays of this list, the guardian / vyper starcannon units are 30-40% less effective due to fewer numbers. The Vypers can no longer hide without CTM. Aspect Warriors are usually eschewed in this style of list due to the massive hit in number of bodies their higher cost and required transport entails. This also hurts the number of scoring units, which needs to be huge, since Eldar die so easily. Any starcannon firepower from these lists will have to shift to warwalkers which in the past offered the -worst- points / shot / game ratio due to the fact that they usually die instantly after their first volley. This will probably not change much since hull down is gone.

2. The tank heavy "tough" lists aren't affected by ths change at all since they are starcannon light.

3. The mounted aspect warrior army, while it took a huge hit due to V4 waveserpent, doesn't use many starcannons either.

The Plasma Cannon... that OFT used weapon in V3 took a nerf so its fair turnaround? Let's look at the re-balance of the new Eldar dex shall we?

Eldar V4 nerfs:

Skimmers - No LOS blockage, 3/4 casualties upon crashing, can't assault after mobile-deploy, Waverserpents can't score

Wraithlord - points +, wraithsight

Scorpions - Strength reduction

Starcannon - Shot rate reduction

Eldar V4 non-fixes: - or, these sucked already, let's see what's changed...

Rangers - Pinning is a joke. Rangers are not taken outside of Alatioc for the reason that they are supremely points-ineffective. Buying pathfinders is doubly stupid since that particular unit took a hit.

Howling Banshees - since the WS nerf, these ladies weren't all that useful. With harlequins on the horizon, they're damn near useless

Swooping Hawks - skyleap is laughable as instead of a force multiplier for a weak unit, it is a force reductor since you must voluntarily sacrifice a turn to redeploy - with the chance that they will not return due to a botched reserves roll. The vehicle attacking rule is interesting but taken alone, hardly a compelling reason to take hawks.

Wraithguard - Still too expensive, too slow and too few attacks.

Warwalkers - Scout and cheaper cost for a unit that is easily swiss-cheesed by just about every heavy weapon in the game after their first salvo. Scatterlasers and Starcannons can't scratch-up enemy armor and kill a laughable number of MEQs even in a full squad due to BS3.

Support Platforms - Were largely laughable in V3 and are still terrible due to few easily killed crew, low range on the d-cannon, lack of power on the shadow-weaver, and the super-expensive-kill-your-own-boys effect of the vibrocannon.

Eldar Boosts:

Avatar - Tougher and Ld boost

Farseer - Toughness reduction, new wargear, new powers - I put this guy under improved, but I think he stayed largely the same. Everyone's making a big deal out of doom, but rerolling wounds isn't as useful as everyone makes out. It works best on weapons with high ROF and around S4. Go to S3 or S6, and the effectiveness drops like crazy. It still doesn't take into account that power armor immediatly removes 2/3 of the rerolled wounds... so on say, doom'ed bladestorming avengers, instead of 3.3 unsaved wounds caused, it will cause 5... which, frankly, is pathetic considering how much points a unit of bladestorming avengers, their taxi, and accompanying farseer costs (300+ points). The Librarian screwing wargear is not so much a boost, but a fix to repair the overpowering effect Librarians currently have against Farseers.

Autarch - Jury is out on this guy - +1 to reserves is nifty, but I'm not sure this outweighs the benefits of a second farseer.

Dire Avengers - Jury is still out on these. I think they should go in the non-fixes, but many people think they'll be good.

Guardian Jetbikes - Points break

Shining Spears - Points break

Warp Spiders - These were pretty decent in V4 already.

Firedragons - These were awesome already, now they are just stupid.

Harlequins - GW: Let's make these GOD so that everyone will pay $200 to get 3 squads!

Falcon - See Firedragons

Fireprism - A needed boost to make the unit more competitive.

Dark Reapers - 3+sv. They should have had this already since they were specifically prohibited from using fleet in V3 despite having crap armour.

Conclusion:

Ok. So the stuff that hurt MEQs took a hit, other than the Starcannon, the stuff that was really good is still really good (or possibly godlike). HTH outside Harlequins and Spears is a joke... The stuff that really sucked continues to really suck. The stuff that was WAY overpriced is now more reasonable... Yes. I guess I must bow to your superior wisdom, since the Eldar really deserved a nerf, since the Plasma cannon took a hit.

The bit of the Starcannon taking a nerf (not the whole eldar army) because the Plasma Cannon took a hit was a bit of a joke, hence the at the end of the statement. I mean really now.

Second of all, I'm amazed you could sit there and tell me that the Eldar didn't need a nerf. They competed with Iron Warriors for # of UKGT wins and had some of the most broken armies in the game. The starcannon army of doom was just as bad if not worse than the assault cannon army of doom that Marines can now field, I fully expect that to be nerfed sometime in the future as well.

Also, take a look at your list of nerfs, non fixes, and then look at your buffs, and see which one has more units in it. Also I'm surprized you put skimmers down as a nerf, skimmers don't block LOS anymore but they became incredibly survivable now compared to any other tank in the game.

The fact remains that you have a S6 AP2 2 Shot Gun and it's awesome. I'm sure IG would kill for something like that.

VoodooBoyz:

Its funny you'd use Guard as an example, since I'm sure any Guard player would willing trade heavy weapons options (none of which shoot more than 36 other than the EML) with the Eldar in exchange for no-special weapons options, no equipment options, range 12 guns, more expensive basic troopers, no reduced squad options, and no troop affecting doctrines. 

Funny you'd use Guard as an example, because Eldar players would kill to have a lascannon option, since S8 to AV12 reduction is worse vs all the common armor types compared to unmodified S9.

The tourny winning Eldar armies were either falcon heavy - NO NERFS THERE. or the Seer's Council army which is superceeded by the new codex without any stat changes whatsoever... so I guess major unit changes was needed to curtail these two army types... but wait, they didn't really.

You're totally right about the assault cannon army being reduced in power by GW...  in about 10 years.

Sure, the heavy support skimmers are very tough.  Yup.  They're awesome.  That's why I put the Falcon and Fireprism in the "eldar boosts" section.  The Waveserpent is significantly less tough.  And of course, the basic skimmer univeral rule is no-way-shape-or-form reduced in power from V3.  I must be loosing my mind! 

Posted By keezus on 10/18/2006 6:48 AM

VoodooBoyz:

Its funny you'd use Guard as an example, since I'm sure any Guard player would willing trade heavy weapons options (none of which shoot more than 36 other than the EML) with the Eldar in exchange for no-special weapons options, no equipment options, range 12 guns, more expensive basic troopers, no reduced squad options, and no troop affecting doctrines. 

Funny you'd use Guard as an example, because Eldar players would kill to have a lascannon option, since S8 to AV12 reduction is worse vs all the common armor types compared to unmodified S9.

The tourny winning Eldar armies were either falcon heavy - NO NERFS THERE. or the Seer's Council army which is superceeded by the new codex without any stat changes whatsoever... so I guess major unit changes was needed to curtail these two army types... but wait, they didn't really.

You're totally right about the assault cannon army being reduced in power by GW...  in about 10 years.

Sure, the heavy support skimmers are very tough.  Yup.  They're awesome.  That's why I put the Falcon and Fireprism in the "eldar boosts" section.  The Waveserpent is significantly less tough.  And of course, the basic skimmer univeral rule is no-way-shape-or-form reduced in power from V3.  I must be loosing my mind! 

You're not losing your mind, I just wasn't remembering things right.

Still an AV12 Skimmer is arguably more survivable than an AV13 Tank.

The Falcon heavy lists were nerfed somewhat by taking away the over-effectivness of the Star Cannon, which is what was usually put on them (that or they were put elsewhere in the army and the Falcons carried lances). 

The Seer Council got fixed simply by the fact that you can't take an unlimited number in the squad.  Having it limited to 10 models fixes it just fine.

They also fixed the Altioc Disruption army of doom, which is nice.

The new Eldar dex is still probably very competitive (Falcons are still safe VP denial/scoring units) and you got some other incredible toys (harlequins).  I'm sure that it'll turn out to be about as broken as Marines are, just not the stupidly simple GT winning armies that they used to be.

I was able to get ahold of the codex yesterday for about an hour....Overall, I have to say that I am pleased with it in general.

 

I'll be list building & playtesting soon. I think that Yriel will find his way into my list....he gets all the abilities of an autarch while also being a close combat monster (5 attacks on charge with a singing spear that ignores saves @ Init 7...wow)

 

The sigle biggest dilema for me will be the HQ section...11 choices! Eldrad is actually pretty damn good and more powerfull than before (and cheaper). His divination ability no longer has that stupid 6" restriction from before. 2-4 units completely  redeployed and of course he gains doom.

I think that we will see less brightlances overall as the serpent builds and vypers that carry them got more  expensive (as well as the wraithlord). I believe that we had improvements in tank busting in other areas for this very reason.

no more stormies in a falcon due to unit size. Stormies seem dead overall due to new changes. Dragons in a falcon however still rock. I'll often use a base unit w/o upgrades. Now, for only 6 points more I can add an exarch w/ a heavy flamer while the other 5 have str 8 melta wepons. I don't see much reason for the exarch powers or the firepike though...I think we'll also see more dragons getting into cheap serpents...

 

Vibro cannons seem pretty interesting and usefull now. No LOS needed now. Shadow weavers are unchanged but dirt cheap.

Magua Ra can dish out 5 pinning / rending shots at 36" str6....not to mention bash your head in with str6 power weapon attacks (lol)

Avatar is no longer an independant character that I can tell....no more joining him to your council to take advantage of fortune on the unit...(I could be wrong)

Singing spear is fixed with an AP value. It also simply states that when thrown against vehicles it simply has a str of 9 (instead of the strx3) so there is no issues w/ monolith ect.

 

Just some quick observations.

Lazarus.

Y'know, I think a waveserpent with vectored engines and spirit stones is probably the most reliable transport in the game for the points, other than a falcon of course.

Moves 24" and requires a glancing 6 to stop the guys from getting out next turn or do them any harm.

It won't be the optimal build but 10 banshees in a waveserpent moving 24, then deploying and assaulting next turn would be fairly decent.

Addi n star engines for a 36" move with no restrictions of last edtition. Gotta love it. (lol)

 

Lazarus.

I can see an Eldar army based around 2 units of Hariles, an aspect squad in a Wave-serpent and a couple of Fire Prisms doing very well in VP tournaments. Once the Harlies have initiated combat, the Aspects can be delivered far more securely.

Not so sure about this 3-1-0 system we have in the UK now though, non-engagement Mech Eldar seem a much better choice (move on turn 6 for the win!).

Looked thru the store promotional copy yesterday and Maugan Ra is the shizzle. Yriel aint no scrub either. My impression is how can you not play the Eldar air force list with a waveserpent movement of 36' and surviviability with vehicle wargear. Harlequin list should also make a showing and may become the new close combat list of choice for 4th edition. Three troupes of Harlequins, 3 wraithlords, bikes, and Vypers for flavor and walla just enough flexibility to take on most lists.

Yriel is simply awesome as he can hurt anything effectively with his weapon. For once, we have a multitude of CC HQ's that can dish out the hurt.

 

Maugan Ra is also pretty amazing for what he does....there are only a few that I wouldn't consider...

Lazarus.

Pound for pound the best Phoenix lord is Asurmen. That guy is the shizzle.

Capt K

Excuse me? Tell me you dont deploy as well.....

No. Star Engines get you 36", then you wait a turn before deploying the Aspects, who can move and assault because the tank hasn't moved. The tank has to SURVIVE a turn, but the new Vectored Engines rules (Immobilized is just Immobilized, not crashed and destroyed) give you a better chance to survive that turn.

The vectored engines are what I think makes it worthwhile. Halves your chance of dying effectively.

Killin a waveserpent with vectored engines and preventing it from delivering its cargo is no easy feat. Putting 6 glancing hits on an AV12 thing with a wave generator is pretty challenging - no meltaguns, lascannons only glance 50% of the time, etc.

I could see rolling 3 of them right up into a shootie army's face with a 36" inch tank shock to bunch them up for your fire prisms, for instance. Then dropping a load of banshees next turn. Heck that might even make prisms useful if you could force people into tight formation with 3 36" moving wave serpents I think that might be a bit too gimmicky though, who knows.

"No. Star Engines get you 36", then you wait a turn before deploying the Aspects, who can move and assault because the tank hasn't moved. The tank has to SURVIVE a turn, but the new Vectored Engines rules (Immobilized is just Immobilized, not crashed and destroyed) give you a better chance to survive that turn."

The tank having to survive a turn is hardly the issue. The issue is how do the troops inside get into assault when they first have to exit from the rear, go around the tank, and somehow still have enough movement to make it to the enemy troops that have smartly moved 6" away from you during their turn. You better get some fancy fleet rolls with your Banshees or hope that you've cornered some unit at the table edge/corner, otherwise that unit's getting Rapid Fired out of existance next turn.

Sure, you can park your rear towards the enemy and reduce about half of the inches you'll have to travel, but I don't put much faith in AV10...

BYE

In practice I always park the serpents at an angle. They have a big long side, so I can usually get the side or front facing most of the enemy army while still shortening the distance to the nearest enemy unit. Having a 36" move will make this easier. Note that I normally shoot enemy fast-movers (like landspeeders) FIRST, which again reduces the amount of fire my tanks take in the rear.

And Also remember, you get 14.9+1d6" of movement to get into assault.

And if they moved away and you might not get the assault, that's one less turn of heavy weapons firing at the rest of your stuff

Correct me if I am mistaken, but can you boost to your 36" move, leave the front armor facing the enemy, leave it for the rest of the turn then, in the next turn, either:

a- rotate the vehicle's rear to the enemy, then get out and assault? I think this counts as the vehicle moving, though, so perhaps not.

or

b-move 'underneath' your own wave serpent or falcon? There really isn't any need to go around the model, is there? It should be high enough off the ground that the disembarking troops can move freely underneath it. The skimmers can move freely over enemy troops should they wish to, so I don't see a reason that friendly troops can't move freely underneath skimmers. As long as they don't really end their turn there. Or would that even matter?

I don't know, just trying to find a way to make it work easier. I think that a 36" move is HUGE, and if it is simply immobilized and not crash and burn, then so much the better. Expensive for standard kit, maybe, but I bet it would be missed if not bought.

a- I thought this too, but then I read the rules again and turning in the movement phase counts as movement. You can turn in the shooting phase and not count as moving if the vehicle hadnt moved in the movement phase and needs to rotate in order to fire on a target.

b- I am almost positive you cant do this either. Maybe this is possible if your models dont end up underneath at the end of their move, but I doubt it.  I

The only solution to this problem that I can think of is to disembark at the start of the move, then move your tank out of the way. Then move and assault with your unit.

None of the above are legal under the rules. Units must be moved in sequence. You are not permitted to start moving one unit, move another unit, then finish moving the first unit.

Pivoting a vehicle in the movement phase is movement. So if you pivot first, the troops can't move or assault after they get out.

No units are allowed to move under other units, whether friendly or enemy. Skimmers have a special rule permitting them to move over other units. It doesn?t give other units the ability to freely move under them.

Ok, I see what you are talking about. Still, with a 36" move, if you cant get your transport close enough that the troops cant run around and assault, then there is something wrong with how you are playing.

The side armor is just as good as the front armor, so you can come up to the unit you want to assault sideways and then you don't have to worry about going under your vehicle.

Just like an alliance operative. Come at them sideways.

Posted By The Crawling Chaos on 10/21/2006 12:56 PM

Just like an alliance operative. Come at them sideways.

Exalt!

I played in a gladiator tourney this weekend and although we were using the current  edition codex still I couldn't help but to think of the new rules as I played my games. In my first game I lost my falcon to the only thing that could shoot it which was a melta gun. A 5' & 6' and it went crashing down killing 2 of the dragons on board. If I hadn't lost that falcon I could have pulled out that game (dumb scenario lol). My falcon would have landed with nothing else to shoot it and I'd still have all of the dragons left (which are also better).

My second game wouldn't have made much difference except for the mobility of star engines. New dragons would have helped with the land raider....

Third game I also lost 2 falcons in the same manner. I also faced a nidzilla list and the str8 dragons would have been simply amazing. I already tortured him with the regualr dragons as it was.

Fourth game I also lost a falcon due to immobilization against a Lysander wing. (and 3 of my dragons). It was the last unit to shoot at it so I'd be returning fire and moving with the dragons as well.

 

I told my opponents of these coming changes and they just cringed at it.

 

Lazarus.

Anyone doing any playing with the new dex yet?

 

Lazarus.

1850 RTT list to try....

 

(210) Eldrad

(155) Prince Yriel

(157) 9 avengers + exarch w/ dire sword, pistol & blade storm

(130) waveserpent w/ TL shuriken cannons, spirit stones & vectored engines

(129) 3 jetbikes w/ cannon + warlock w/ singing spear, pistol & embolden

(134) 3 jetbikes w/ cannon + warlock w/ singing spear, pistol & destructor

(80) 5 firedragons

(108) 5 fire dragons + exarch w/ dragon's breath

(215) Falcon w/ pulse,shuriken cannon,star cannon, holo,stones,vectored engines

(215) Falcon w/ pulse,shuriken cannon,star cannon, holo,stones,vectored engines

(180) Prism w/ holo, stones, vectored engines

(137) 4 warp spiders + exarch w/ spinerette rifle & surprise assault

40 models

9 scoring units

2 HQ (20%)

3 TROOP (30%)

2 ELITE (10%)

1 FAST (7%)

3 HEAVY (33%)

 

Yriel gives startegy rating of 4 and +1 on reseves and is a beast in close combat (vs. tanks as well) Eldrad supports army in the bgining by dumping guide on both falcons and dooming a unit if close enough...possbiliy casting fortune on himself if not. His precog power can really hose an opponent if they are not carefull. He can either get into a falcon or serpent if needed or simply fleet to keep up with the tanks advance. Casting doom twice a round should help make the most of the avengers / bikes or prism for example. No lances in the list makes me cringe a bit but I stil think I have plenty of anti-tank in there while being fast as hell. Spiders benifit from the reserve modifier to go after artillery via deepstrike if need be.

Any thoughts?

I'm thinking of dropping the spiders for more bikes? I had originally though of using a seer on a bike but it costs soo muc that Eldrad seems like a no brainer with all of the power that he gets....

Lazarus.

 

First off, that's about as HQ heavy as I've ever seen an Eldar army (Seer Council from Hell notwithstanding).

I don't understand the DA/Serpent choice at all. DAs seem too expensive for what they are: Fire Warriors with crappy guns and decent WS. I don't know what else you'd spend the pts on, but Bikes are the clear winners in the troops section this edition. I can't imagine taking DAs for any reason. You basically bank on running forward, surviving (you figure the enemy won't land 6 glancing hits), and then running forward. Really far. If the enemy has half a mind, they'll run. If you can charge them, you're in rapid fire range. And no, FoF won't help, because then you won't be able to use your oh-so-precious bladestorm. And even then, who's to say you get close enough to even use the bladestorm without the 3.33 MEQs removed taking you out of charge range? Sure, you can get out and bladestorm. 3.33 MEQs are lying on the ground, and whatever you shot gets to rapid-fire you back. The Diresword also seems like a waste of pts. Sure, it's a force weapon, but if your opponent knows you're packing a diresword, he's going to make sure to heavy bolter the squad to death before they get anywhere near one of his characters. (And at S3, it's not like it will be putting too much of a dent in regular squads: .89 MEQs per turn).

I guess you need the Warlocks with the Bikes for the mobile lascannons. But the powers seem superfluous. Anything you get close enough to get a decent heavy flamer shot on will be charging you the next turn, and you don't want the bikes tied down in CC. I question embolden as well, but I suppose with the FotD around, it could be worth it. But you can get 2 squads of 3 bikes each with Shuricannons for roughly the same price as one of your squads right now. But I don't know where else you'd put in anti-tank.

Why the heavy flamer on the FDs? Versatility means nothing. Specialization is the name of the game. Don't waste a shot against a predator, and you won't be tempted to flame a huge squad of gaunts late in the game either. I'd go with 2 squads of 6 Dragons, no upgrades at all. They're too good for the pts just as they are.

Starcannons on Falcons? Too early to tell, IMHO. It just seems like they're too expensive now. Just remember that in 5+ cover the scatter laser is statistically equal to the Starcannon against MEQs but actually slightly better due to the increased number of shots.

The Spiders are an interesting choice. The Spinneret rifle seems like a good choice, but let's look at it: against LD 10 MEQs (Marines + Necrons), you're looking at .35 failed pinning tests per game, assuming no one is in cover. Even against LD 9 Chaos, you're looking at .70 failed pinning tests per game, again with no cover. Not worth it. Perhaps a unit of Hawks with haywires to for vehicle hunting would be useful. That might let you drop the SS Warlocks and take 2 more scoring jetbike squads.

Again, until I see the book with my own eyes, and more importantly watch it in action, it's all just really-removed theory hammer. Not just regular theory hammer. The really out-there version.  Then again, I suppose all message board talk on list design is theoryhammer and thus far-removed.  But now I'm getting into the territory of disclaiming knowledge a priori, and that's just madness... you know what, I'm going to stop now.

Yeah, but they are really cool characters. However, I would rather take a standard Autarch to get those benifits and run him with the Aspect Squad he is best suited at supporting.



Don't you mean Fire Warriors with a longer range, better BS, and not crappy in close combat? Besides anthing in a Wave Serpent plays VP denial first. Also, anything CC oriented in a DA squad is for the counter charge not to charge thenselves. Though I think (to save more points) I wouldn't take the Exarch, and if I was going to take the Exarch it would be duel S. Catapults, which puts you at 2.6 Dead MEQs when you Bladestorm, 3.9 if the unit is doomed.



It does seem a little pricey. Unless you really think you need the 5+ Cover Save, or the flame template I don't see a use for it.



I agree, however, that Heaby Flamer upgrade is cheap and very tempting.



He probably doesn't want to change his models unless he has too. However, I get tired of the "best" situation versus "worst" situation arguement. How often are MEQ's in cover, and why can't that same cover be applied to hiding our vehicles. We must assume that everything is on the same battle field.



Spiders are good Tank hunters as well because their speed allows them to get around enemy vehicles to that precious side or rear. The AP could be useful on the Rifle.



Well lazarus has seen, read, spent hours in, and made a list from the new codex (the store got it's preview copy) coppled that with his 20 years Eldar experiance and impressive RTT win record, I am more than silling to give him the benefit of the doubt.