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Crazy_Carnifex wrote:The First thing I would like to comment on, in terms of tactics, is the need to cover units with Instinctive Behaviour/low Ld with lots of Synapse. This may sound obvious, but can be easy to overlook. In my game against marines, I made the mistake of only covering my Termagants, one Hormagaunt unit and my Hivegaurd with my Zoanthropes. Zoanthropes fail 6 of their 7 saves, and my entire flank goes nuts. Gants fled, Gaunts charged a Dreadnaught, Hivegaurd shot the wrong target. Both I and my opponent agreed that was the turning point of the game.

The Second Point that I would like o mention is what I call the 3G’s of expendability. ‘Gaunts, ‘Gants and Gargoyles. These are three units that are strong enough to be very deadly, yet cheap enough to come in large numbers and still be expendable. I tended to run my Hormagaunts into the meat grinder to buy me time/inflict a couple wounds on my enemies’ deathstar as often as I used them to inflict damage in the assault.

Finally, I would like to stress target saturation. As one opponent put it, “There’s too many of them!” S8+ weapons had some hard decisions to make. Did they want to shoot the warriors, causing instant death, or did they want to inflict the damage to the Trygons? Or the Hivegaurd and the Zoanthropes? My opponent quite often couldn’t decide whom to attack. Same with the horde of smaller bugs, and blast weapons. Things really got interesting when the blasts were S8+.

Your list is nice but I do find the low number of T6 wounds (only 18) to be a bit of a worry. It's probably more the types of armies some of the other major local players and I run that generally number 15-20+ St8+ heavy weapons. It's fast, and nasty but I think you would struggle against these types of lists if they had good target priority. That said I agree you need expendable units to buy you time and that's what my Gargs and Gants do. I also agree, if you note in most of my articles, that the most important thing that helps make Tyranids competitive is target saturation. Without it you can be easily picked apart and slaughtered. That's the only reason I have a problem with your list in the form of the low number of T6 wounds, especially if the Trygons start off table as that makes targeting even easier. I'm personally looking at trying a no MC list but it's gonna be a hard build to pull off. Grats on Best General. I'll take anything that shows that Nids are competitive

Congrats Crazy! Its nice to see a nid list with no tervigons doing well.

Thanks, guys.

I would at this point like to make a note on the expendability of units. Generaly, a units expendability is proportional to how many other units in the army do the same job, and how well they do it.

For example, in my list, the Hive Gaurd and Zoanthropes are my only ranged AT units, thereby making them comparatively high value units. This value decreases as my melee AT ability gets close (Trygons, and, in a pinch, stealers or Tyranid Prime), but increases with my opponents ability to redeploy armour rapidly.

Meanwhile, Melee infantry killers in my list are relatively sacrificial. Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and Warriors all fullfill the role, with the Trygons joining to deal with smaller, more elite units. Trygons and Warriors are Synaptic, decreasing their expendability. Genestealers do not require synapse, making them less expendable than similar points of Hormagaunts. All of them fulfill secondary rolls as well, leaving Hormagaunts as the mst expendable of the units, as they only kill infantry.

I'd think that a swarm of Hormagaunts could kill light vehicles in a pinch. They have the mobility to surround Rhinos and Chimeras too, making sure that the unit piling out has nowhere to go.

Small groups of genestelaers are high on my expendable list. As long as they can hit one unit they've done their job. Termigants are actually slightly less expendable so me because even small broods can be useful and movement and assault screens.

Here's my planned 1500pt list. I'm going off memory (the list is at home, and I'm at work), so I might be getting some things mixed up.

HQ
Hive Tyrant
Wings
Lashwhip/Bone Sword
Paroxysm/Leech Essence
Either hive Commander or Old Adversary

Troops
5 Tyranid Warriors
4 Deathspitters
Barbed Strangler

20 Hormagaunts (Toxin Sacs)
20 Hormagaunts (Toxin Sacs)
12 Termigants

Elites
2 Zoanthropes

Fast Attack
15 Gargoyles (Toxin Sacs)

3 Shrikes
Lashwhip/Bone Sword

Heavy Support
2 Carnifexes
2 Pairs of Scything Talons each

Basically, the Warriors, Zoanthropes, Termigants, Hormagaunts and Carnifexes are the main 'blob'. The Hive Tyrant, Shrikes and Gargoyles move around as a separate force to attack lone units or objectives. I do realize I'm laking a lot of anti tank, but considering my groups meta (I don't see a lot of vehicles), fighting mech forces isn't a problem. The Zoanthropes and Carnifexes shouldn't have much problem dealing with the mech my group uses, and my Tyrant can always double back to help.

Also bear in mind - I'm not replacing my Carnifexes with Trygons. I'm still a huge Carnifex fan (going back to originally seeing the 2nd ed screamer killer and being awed). I'm also not using a Tervigon. it's a good unit, and I can see it helping my force a great deal, and I will probably end up getting one. But I don't want it to be a crutch that I end up relying on. I'd rather get to grips with the army before boosting its abilities with a Tervigon.

I think your Carnifexen could really benefit from a Prime attached to it for wound allocation, and for the precious Lash Whip to allow the big boys to hit first.

I think you are a bit light on antitank though. You have nothing beyond 18" for antitank, and nothing besides the tyrant that's a fast assault unit to do the same thing.

Get some Hive Guard. They are AMAZING. Even one squad of two would help you out amazingly here.

The Lash Whip will only allow the Carnifexen to hit first against models in base to base contact with the Prime. With an Adrenal Gland and Frag Spines they'll hit at I4 against units in cover, and Frag Spines benefit the entire unit, so it's really the Prime that benefits from hanging around with the Carnifexen.

Nurglitch wrote:I think you are a bit light on antitank though. You have nothing beyond 18" for antitank, and nothing besides the tyrant that's a fast assault unit to do the same thing.

Get some Hive Guard. They are AMAZING. Even one squad of two would help you out amazingly here.

As I said, my group doesn't run many tanks. The most transports I've seen them run are a drop pod or two in Space Marine armies or a Falcon in an Eldar army. I really don't need to overload on anti tank. My group likes running powerful melee commanders in squads (but usually still footslog them), so I see more use for a fast moving anti melee unit like Shrikes with LW/BS backed up by Gargoyles.

This is only a preliminary list. If they get wise and throw some tanks against me, I'll definitely have an alternate list with Hive Guard.

Nurglitch wrote:The Lash Whip will only allow the Carnifexen to hit first against models in base to base contact with the Prime. With an Adrenal Gland and Frag Spines they'll hit at I4 against units in cover, and Frag Spines benefit the entire unit, so it's really the Prime that benefits from hanging around with the Carnifexen.

That's a good point. i'll see if I can work in adrenals and frag spines.

I don't see many people talking about taking harpies at all. I run two of them with a winged hive tyrant with old adversary and 2xtldev, and it leaves a huge mess out of whatever it gets pointed at.
All of the groups shooting can be independently targeted at up to 5 units. The harpies both fly over and bomb units, then unload TLHVC at a nearby tank. Old adversary affecting 3 MCs that just unloaded a ton of shots means they are butchering anything left alive, or finishing off the tanks in a big way.

I've been interested in Harpies as well, but there's a lot of internet dislike for them. How do they hold up under dedicated fire for you? How do you keep them alive?

The internet dislike I see for them is their vulnerability to S10 weapons instakilling them (which is a definite concern) and difficulty finding them cover (seeing as they're a flying trygon, that's obvious).

If you're not fighting an opponent with S10 weapons, I don't see why you should have a problem with clever movement, but they're definitely going to almost never be in cover.

I suppose you can get them cover via gargoyles, but if you're shooting vehicles you have to watch you don't give the vehicle you're shooting at a cover save as well.

My main concern against running them is autocannons and other high S, ap4 weaponry that make a mockery of the Harpy. 4 hits and your 170 point beast goes down.

However, a large gargoyle screen, two harpies, and a Flyrant would make an awesome core to a flying list. Flesh out with Tervigons, Hive Guard, and Trygons... sounds nasty and pretty competitive.

Also, does anyone run Flyrants regularly? Is buying armored shell worth it for them to shrug off the Krak missiles inevitably coming their way?

You can't take armoured shell and wings, it's one or the other.

-Loki- wrote:The internet dislike I see for them is their vulnerability to S10 weapons instakilling them (which is a definite concern) and difficulty finding them cover (seeing as they're a flying trygon, that's obvious).

If you're not fighting an opponent with S10 weapons, I don't see why you should have a problem with clever movement, but they're definitely going to almost never be in cover.

They're not a Flying Trygon though, or at least shouldn't be anywhere as big. Besides, aren't most people modeling them from Flyrants anyway?

MagicJuggler wrote:

-Loki- wrote:The internet dislike I see for them is their vulnerability to S10 weapons instakilling them (which is a definite concern) and difficulty finding them cover (seeing as they're a flying trygon, that's obvious).

If you're not fighting an opponent with S10 weapons, I don't see why you should have a problem with clever movement, but they're definitely going to almost never be in cover.

They're not a Flying Trygon though, or at least shouldn't be anywhere as big. Besides, aren't most people modeling them from Flyrants anyway?

The codex description does say they're the size of a Trygon. I just said flying Trygon because of that. Trygons are hard to get cover for, harpies infinitely more so.

Depending on how you model it, I think you could get cover from gargoyles though. If you don't model it soaring through midair you should be fine.

I dislike harpies myself, here's why.

170+ points for 1 S9 shot, T5, W4 and a 4+ save. They are around 3 times as vulnerable to bolter/splinter rifle/pulse rifle fire as a tyrant, 4+ times as vulnerable to heavy bolters, autocannons, missile pods and other S5-S7 AP4 weapons. In a "take all comers" scenario people do tend to take a fair amount of autocannons, and harpies make a really optimal target for them. Not to mention that odd list where a random S10 shot splats it in 1 hit which isn't as rare as you'd think. Thunderwolves (BIG charge range), Vindicators, Lysander, Rail-guns, tyranno-fexes, carnifexes and even the dark eldar have a couple shot only S10 attacks (I think). Throw in the fact that to do the spore mine drop you pretty much have to be within a few inches of enemy units, which if equipped with a powerfist will ruin it's day. Hell, the powerfist isn't even really necessary, I'd wager a tactical squad would be able to drop the harpy in combat if they felt like it.

So IMO, they aren't particularly tough, especially compared to a flyrant, trygon (for only 30ish points more), carnifex or even 170ish points of warriors, shrikes or gargoyles.

Then there's the hitting power issue. I'm not going to debate the usefulness of single S9 shot. Some people (like me) think that's AWFUL for 170 points, some people will take whatever ranged firepower they can get post hive guard/zoans. Call it an unfair comparison if you'd like (different armies aren't the same!!) but I see 170 point anti-tank and I compare it to a BA triple lascannon predator which is around the same. It's potentially faster (18" fast move vs 12" flying), tougher (Armor 13/11/10, hell, 11/11/10 would likely be better then a harpy), and throws down close to 3 times the fire power in exchange for the ability to fight in HtH and fly. Not to mention it's firepower is Ap2.

So IMO, it can't outgun similar points of stuff from many other armies.

So what does that leave? The special rules aren't very, erm, special. The spore mines are extremely short ranged and augment the tyranids already spectacular anti-infantry ability, so it's somewhat redundant, and it's scream ability isn't all that great if you are using it as a gun platform. The only time I've considered one is in 2000+ point games where 6 Hive Guard and 3 Zoans are the extent of my range firepower and I feel I need a little bit more. For ~90 points more I feel you'd be better off going with a Tyranno-fex though.

As for Flyrants, I love them. I use mine to keep pace with my genestealers that infiltrate up and give them old adversary. Makes them dead killy. Target priority is a big issue with him though as he is responsible for a TON of potential damage and gets focused quite often.

Carnage, Id have to also point out that coming up the board with a flyrant with TL Devs and Old adversary, Two harpies are pretty scary. If they have a s10 shot its going on vulnerable stuff anyway.
Why NOT have them browning themselves over two 180 point nightmares? If the abovementioned group gets to those guns in your standard IG parking lot, thats at least three tanks dead a turn.
Rerolling hits with 2d6+5 to rear armor? Thats nice.
If you deepstrike them onto the board they become an instant threat with the shooting they put out and the "Oh my god kill it with fire" mentality that maybe blowing up a few tanks imparts.
So maybe that str 10 shot doesnt get put on the zoanthropes that are being onslaughted up the board right behind. Tyranid lists need to be layer upon layer of units working together, and the harpy adds a cheap MC to the fast attack slot.
The Spore mines which might cause pinning in the movement phase, twin linked HVC, cluster spines, all before the assault of a MC that halves your initiative, and has assault grenades?
Means those genestealers have a much easier job to do.

The main reason you don't hear much about harpies is because a) there is no model b) there are hardly any models that are a suitable proxy and c) they aren't a 'must include' model for reasons already stated. That equates to a unit that few people are willing to go out and do a conversion when on paper they look very fragile.

I'm not as down on them as many others are. The Harpy is not an 'out shoot the other guy' MC. It is a fire supression unit that supports in CC when needed. If you plan to use it solely for it's HVC then you have made a poor choice in list building. The key to the Harpy (IMO) is positioning and knowing when to reserve them. Positioning is important in any army but with it's fragile nature it is paramount to avoid putting it in position to get gunned down. I think it performs the best either with tyrant reserve lists or ones that have so many ranged threats that it gives your opponent tougher choices. Namely you have your elite slots filled with your HG/Zolanthropes, 2-3 Tyranofexes and 2 harpies. That's 2k and up naturaly.

This is the crux of the whole tyranid army. Proper positioning, deployment, reserve strategies, use of cover and cohesion between all the units in a given nid list are so important. It's important for any army naturally but it is absolutely critical for nids. The Harpy is a prime example of this IMO.

Except....

Old Adversary doesn't work on non-dreadnought vehicles. Preferred enemy specifically states "Against enemies with a WS".

Scything talons re-rolls do work, but you don't use those.

SOOO, those 3 loose in the enemy's car park is at BEST 3 dead, and that's only semi-likely if they are stationary. If they moved 6+" I'd bet you kill 1-2 at best. (Forgive me if my math is out to lunch, I'm at work and don't have the time or resources to number crunch"

As for deepstirking "OMG THREAT THREAT THREAT". I hate deepstrike. Not knowing when they will turn up makes it really difficult to work them into a solid plan.

So maybe that str 10 shot doesnt get put on the zoanthropes that are being onslaughted up the board right behind. Tyranid lists need to be layer upon layer of units working together, and the harpy adds a cheap MC to the fast attack slot.

Worst example ever? Who in their right mind wastes high strength low AP shots on models with a 3+ invul? I had a player in my last game unload everything from 2 stormraven gunships (8 blood strike missile, 2 TL-lascannons and 2 TL-heavy bolter i think?) into my Zoans...8ish invul saves later I was laughing pretty good. Sure I got lucky, but that would have straight up removed my winged tyrant and probably my tervigon if he had targetted properly.

All it takes is one failed save. 3+ is nice... but not anything against s8+ weaps. Hive tyrant doesnt start taking whole models off per wound. 8 dice will usually cause 4 fails. thats enough to kill the whole zoanthrope brood.

So looking over my list last night, I was actually quite a bit short of 1500pts. Enough so that I could fit adrenal glands on my Carnifexes, and if I take a few gaunts or gargoyles out, fit a Prime in as well.

this is great

A few people have been advocating broodlords to increase survivability of genestealer units. I feel compelled to chime in and dispel that concept.

Just some quick fundamentals about the broodlord before I continue. His true cost is 60 points. You trade an already purchased 14 point genestealer, and 46 additional points for the broodlord.

He has 3 wounds. The equivalent genestealers that can be purchased with 60 points has 4 wounds. Unwounded, his four strength 5 attacks are compared to eight strength 4 attacks.

After losing two wounds, the broodlord has 4 attacks, after losing two wounds the four genestealers have 4 attacks. On the charge the broodlord generates 5 attacks, the two genestealers 6.

After losing 3 wounds, the genestealers are still up 2 attacks.

Survivability and raw attack output do not favor the broodlord, unless you are already maxed at 20 genestealers. He does however have increased strength, and two psychic powers. I currently don't believe that either psychic power is worth the trade, and the strength 5 doesn't push him over the top either. With something like rending, maximizing standard attacks is much more important to me than adding some slightly fancier attacks. If the special upgrades the broodlord had access to were cheaper (or free) then I could also consider the 60 points worthwhile (implant attack and acid blood)

He isn't way off, imo. But neither the strength upgrade (which only adds a small percentage of glancing hits to armor 10, and a chance to pen the ultra-rare rear armor 11) nor the psychic powers that work only sporadically bring him in line with his cost in my opinion.

-Shep

It really depends on what you want to do with the genestealers as to whether or not you need a lord with them. If you are going to use them to attack soft targets then he is of no use. I have seen him do great things with units that I set after vehicles or after medium targets. His psychic ability can totally disable a powerfist in a unit that you are attacking, keeping 3 genestealers alive an extra turn.

Against vehicles he gives you a little better chance to slow them down or penetrate with adrenals.

Also one lord over 4 stealers keeps your units footprint smaller, and he gets a much better 4+ save.

I guess what I am trying to say is that he isn't a "no brainer" buy. He has scenarios and uses however that make him well worth his points. You just need to know what you plan to use those stealers for.

-Loki- wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:

-Loki- wrote:The internet dislike I see for them is their vulnerability to S10 weapons instakilling them (which is a definite concern) and difficulty finding them cover (seeing as they're a flying trygon, that's obvious).

If you're not fighting an opponent with S10 weapons, I don't see why you should have a problem with clever movement, but they're definitely going to almost never be in cover.

They're not a Flying Trygon though, or at least shouldn't be anywhere as big. Besides, aren't most people modeling them from Flyrants anyway?

The codex description does say they're the size of a Trygon. I just said flying Trygon because of that. Trygons are hard to get cover for, harpies infinitely more so.

The codex says "where the Gargoyle is very much akin to a winged Termagant, the Harpy appears very much closer in nature with a Trygon. Its body is long and sinuonus..."
The Trygon's body looks a little bulky to fit that description. Ergo shape rather than size?

Doesn't a broodlord also offer an additional way to get synapse around the field? Either infiltrating, or outflanking the stealers gives you opportunities to get a synapse creature into your opponent's area, possibly opening up approaches for other bugs?

Melchiour wrote: His psychic ability can totally disable a powerfist in a unit that you are attacking, keeping 3 genestealers alive an extra turn.

I do think that this is easily his most powerful function. I personally really hate abilities that you pay for that then require an opponent to fail a stat check to have any use. It just irks me. In defense of this particular ability, it does trigger more than it fails, and in some instances it has a very high percentage of functionality.

Melchiour wrote: Against vehicles he gives you a little better chance to slow them down or penetrate with adrenals.

Unfortunately, you can't take adrenals independent of the rest of the unit. Only scything talons, acid blood and implant attack can be selected independently. You are free to give him adrenals, but it'll cost you 3 points per model.

Melchiour wrote:Also one lord over 4 stealers keeps your units footprint smaller, and he gets a much better 4+ save.

A fair point. How much value in points would you assign to an x-factor like this?

Melchiour wrote:I guess what I am trying to say is that he isn't a "no brainer" buy. He has scenarios and uses however that make him well worth his points. You just need to know what you plan to use those stealers for.

I really wanted to just make it clear that he doesn't add pure offensive output, nor does he add pure defensive survivability. I also wanted to weigh in that I don't find the need to upgrade to him often in my own lists.

I would agree with this statement if you didn't use the term "well worth his points". I think it might be better said as "You should be able to make him work if you are very familiar with his abilities and your expectations of him are properly aligned with reality."

Really, I find the Broodlord is a nice "in case" option. If I need to assault a unit in cover (Ideally with a small Termagant unit to pull attacks away from the Stealers), support a multiassault, or want to scare enemy Independent Characters, he'll usually find a way in. Or he's nice for those odd but not uncommon scenarios where having an extra initiative step can make a noted difference in a combat (punking the Sanguinary Priest before the rest of the group chows down for example).