Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah. It happens with units on flying stands. The only solutions I've found is modeling them so that they can be ranked up tight in base to base.

Well at least I wasn't playing them wrong lol. That being said the gargoyles did relatively well in the game. They lost a round of CC and fled back into synapse range. Kind of how it was described earlier so as to not die from wounds overflowing from no retreat. That strategy was awesome and was fun to try out. While the gargoyles never killed anything special, they took some shots and tied up enemy units which was well worth the small cost of 15 of them (all the models I have.)

Genestealer's were the all stars of my latest game. The brood lord gives the unit so much extra punch and ability to survive. The ability to soak a wound or two from shooting or CC without loosing a model is golden. 2 units of stealer's destroyed a predator, a rhino, a razorback, and 2 squads of marines. I was very happy with the results. My Ymgarl's did some damage, but seemed costly for what they did.

Melchiour wrote:Ran my first game with gargoyles last night and had some concerns about them. When they charged into combat, the large size and awkward models made it almost impossible to get them all into combat. Out of 12 models I only had 5-6 in base to base or within 2 inches of his marines. Has anyone else seen this as an issue?

awkward models seem to be a baseline tyranid problem, I usually turn mine around, and also have most of mine converted so they can stack in easier.

Nope, I turn them sideways so there's one wing toward the middle and the other wing pointing away. Plus, with pile in the enemy should be able to get in around the gargoyles as he has to get as many into base to base. That and there's usually some dead goyles from previous shooting.

I've found it's important when you deploy them to go hi-wing to low-wing. This will allow you to wedge them in based to base against each other. It takes some practice and it a little bit annoying during movement and deployment but worth the extra attacks. That said I've never gotten more than 18 Gargoyles into combat from my 25 man unit on the first charge.

Question about the the Venomthrope's cover save: does everyone need to be within 6", or does only one model of the unit need to be in range like the synapse rules?

Mr Nobody wrote:Question about the the Venomthrope's cover save: does everyone need to be within 6", or does only one model of the unit need to be in range like the synapse rules?

Just needs one model of a squad within range because the ability affects units. So if the unit has a model in range the unit gets the benefit, much like synapse.

I have a personal (ie your mileage may vary) guide to using Genestealers successfully.
-I run small units for surgical attacks. A Broodlord with Scything Talons and Implant Attack, and 5-6 models. The unit has Toxin Sacs.
-A soft rule I use is "One Tervigon for every Genestealer." They really help to make them that more durable.
-The Genestealers Infiltrate into cover to claim objectives and help funnel or bait enemy units (since i normally deploy my AT in the center due to ease of refuse-flank against Nids, it makes it so that trying to divert units to take out the Stealers results in more sidesniping opportunities for me); I keep one model within 24" of a Tervigon at all times, because in cover and Catalyst'd, it takes heavy weapons (needed for killing the Tervigons) to reliably uproot them.
-Depending on the foe I face, I'll either use the Genestealers to threaten carparks (the poor 'Nids equivalent of Demovets), or I'll have them subsequently fall back to act in support of the rest of the swarm.
-My standard "Kill enemy" doctrine is actually to multiassault a unit, with another unit (Termagants have a greater range if spawned, but the bigger monsters will help in a unit serving to pull the majority of attacks away from the Genestealers; take advantage of the core rules stating that if you're in base-to-base with one unit, you *must* attack that unit by having your otherwise melee-inefficient Monstrous Creatures tank. I take advantage of the Genestealer's Fleet Move to reform them into a wedge with the Broodlord in front; thus when the Stealers do assault, they can bring all their attacks to bear, while only receiving return attacks from one enemy model (who if I'm doing things correctly, won't even get the chance to strike back).
-This trick can work if you can set them outside of synapse range. They have the initiative to reliably escape a pear-shaped assault against several foes.
-The only time I'll actually Outflank them is during Dawn of War.

Melchiour wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Question about the the Venomthrope's cover save: does everyone need to be within 6", or does only one model of the unit need to be in range like the synapse rules?

Just needs one model of a squad within range because the ability affects units. So if the unit has a model in range the unit gets the benefit, much like synapse.

I want to use Venomthropes so much, but the fact that they need to stay in coherency kind of hurts. I wish they were squad upgrades instead of separate units, like, you buy 3 as an elite slot, then attach them to units.

Also, question about using a Tervigon. Is it worth maxing out a Termigant brood when you also have a Tervigon? Or will the Tervigon generally spawn enough Termigants that you don't need to worry about it?

You know, if you stick two Venomthropes in a unit with a Tyranid Prime as a 'hub' model, then you can flank the Prime at 2" right and left apiece, then you can cover units as far apart as 18".

A 40mm base is approximately 1.5" wide. The flanking Venomthropes are approximately 2" from the edges of the central Prime's base, and their aura is 6" in radius. That means they can cover Tyranid units 6"+6"+2"+2"+1.5"+1.5"+1.5" or 18.5" apart, though 18" as a margin for safety.

Take a third to fill in the gap if one gets fragged, but if the Prime has Regenerate, he can catch the odd Krak Missile.

-Loki- wrote:Also, question about using a Tervigon. Is it worth maxing out a Termigant brood when you also have a Tervigon? Or will the Tervigon generally spawn enough Termigants that you don't need to worry about it?

I have tried both. Ultimately, I have found that it isn't all that necessary to bolster the unit size. I acknowledge that chargin two units of ten into a hard unit is much more risky than one unit of 20, thanks to the 'no retreat' rule, but I don't tend to commit my gant farm termagants to assaults until they have a critical mass.

You end up with so many extra units that losing a unit to no retreat wounds won't phase you. If you successfully removed the threat of an enemy unit.

In all honesty, if I ever did have points left over to splurge on termagants, I'd buy them devourers before I bought them more bodies.

-Loki- wrote:
Also, question about using a Tervigon. Is it worth maxing out a Termigant brood when you also have a Tervigon? Or will the Tervigon generally spawn enough Termigants that you don't need to worry about it?

I find squads of 10-15 work well when you have tervigons. The tervigon will on average spawn about 20 themselves. Also I do not want to have to buy 150 models to support my army lol.

Speaking of Tervigon's. Has anyone tried tervigon spam? Such as 5 tervigons, 3 units of gants, 3 units of 2 hive guard and 3 trygon's? Sound's like fun to play but no idea on how competitive it could be. Basic idea would be to run as fast as you can and throw FNP on the trygon's I guess lol.

@Shep

You hit the nail on the head for me. I've bought Dev's for one of my Gant units before instead of 10 more gants and it was awesome! Nothing like 30 shots at st4 from 10 tiny little people

Melchiour wrote:Speaking of Tervigon's. Has anyone tried tervigon spam? Such as 5 tervigons, 3 units of gants, 3 units of 2 hive guard and 3 trygon's? Sound's like fun to play but no idea on how competitive it could be. Basic idea would be to run as fast as you can and throw FNP on the trygon's I guess lol.

That is essentially the list that I have had tons of success with. Includng going 4-0 at the last RTT I took them to, and beating a mechanized long fang-toting space wolf army as recently as last night.

-3 trygons, +2 tyrannofexes is my suggestion.... But otherwise, the core of tervigons with adrenal glands and toxin sacs chewing up the table, while 6-9 hive guard open up every transport that looks to threaten an objective contesting tank shock will do very well.

Unlike mechanized boxhammer armies, it requires a great deal of concentration, and I end up being much more fatigued after tournaments with my nids than with my IG. (I suppose part of that might be leaning over the 90+ models for hours on end).

Where you position your gants, how far they are from your tervigons, and how you protect your tervigons are VITAL skills to master. In a nutshell, keep gants in synapse but out of 6" of tervigons, unless they are about to be charged, or you plan to charge with them, then get at least one termagant in base contact with a tervigon to ensure that after charge moves or defender react moves are done, you remain within the magic 6". Ensure catalyst plus a cover save whenever possible for the tervigons. Base to base hive guard or t-fexes can provide bring your own cover, as can larger terrain pieces.

I believe Hulksmash is about to do a blog entry about winning with foot nids, and I can guess that tervigons will feature heavily. I am eagerly anticipating it, as it'll likely cover in more detail the nuances of positioning that I mentioned.

Hear that Hulk! Finish the article!

Shep wrote:Where you position your gants, how far they are from your tervigons, and how you protect your tervigons are VITAL skills to master.

This is the second reason that I have not made a second tervigon yet. I am almost worthless at eyeballing ranges. Apparently I only have spacial awareness in video games. wth?

The first reason is that I made my initial one from a carnifex + trygon pieces + some gants.

I was having second thoughts about the tyrannofexes though until I read another of your posts Shep, regarding running them in front of your army. Seems so obvious in retrospect.

Also, I very much agree about devourer armed gants--I missed them horribly in my big-bug list, I used those points for a spod.

@Shep

I'm working on it. The second part of the article is up though it mostly only covers the approach to competitive army building from my perspective. Damn thing was suppose to be a 3 part article but it's moved up to 4 now since I can't seem to stop talking about bugs. Part 2 only managed to get the list building and the first of my army I'm testing regularly and not the rest yet. Part 3 is my other list and how I feel those lists work and why they are truly competitive. The last one will be a nod to other styles, a little more detail on key points of positioning and proper movement and a general recap. It's a lot of writing

We need to get more practice games in sometime Hulksmash. Last night was fun, and was a bit explosive for both of us. I do like the list I was working with but it looks like I could easily drop the third Venomthrope in order to give Sacs to both Tervigons.

At any rate, building a better "vs Dark Eldar" playbook is going to be important.

Finally had time to test my latest tyranid list. I had to cut it back a little as it was origonally a 2k list and we played 1850. So here was my list

Tyranid prime- lash whip bone sword 95
Tyranid prime- lash whip bone sword 95

3 hive guard 150
3 hive guard 150
3 zoanthropes 180

20 stealers 280
5 stealers 70
5 stealers 70
10 gaunts- devourers 100
10 gaunts- devourers 100

8 raveners- rending claws 280
8 raveners- rending claws 280

Played against horde orks, 150 orks (slugga choppa) 30 lootas 20 grots gazghkull. More or less the list my friend will be taking to mechanicon.

It was 1 objective each and pitched deployment. I won the roll for first and took it. Basically I got the jump on him after his turn 1 shooting proved ineffective and after my turn 2 100 or so orks were gone and gazghkull had 2 wounds on him. Then he counter charged then I counter charged, and this continued until my gaunts were left on an objective and dwindling away his last 30 man blob where I eventually ccame out on top.

It was a blood bath to say the least.
Realizations from the playtest:
1. 20 man stealers squads are silly powerful
2. Raveners are NOT immune to small arms fire in any way shape or form.
3. Dev gaunts actually contribute to the game.
4. Need either more synapse or less synapse reliant units.
5. The army will anhilate an infantry based list.

So with this in mind I've made the following changes.

Tyranid Prime- lash whip bone sword 95
Tyranid Prime- lash whip bone sword 95

3 hive guard 150
3 hive guard 150
2 zoanthropes 120

20 genestealers 280
20 genestealers 280
10 guants- devourers 100
10 guants- devourers 100
10 gaunts- devourers 100
10 gaunts- devourers 100

8 raveners- rending claws 280

1850 on the dot.

You intend to take that to a tourny? 98 models seems like it would be difficult to complete games in the time limits.

1. 20 man stealers squads are silly powerful
2. Raveners are NOT immune to small arms fire in any way shape or form.
3. Dev gaunts actually contribute to the game.
4. Need either more synapse or less synapse reliant units.
5. The army will anhilate an infantry based list.

1. I find squads that large to be difficult to maneuver properly, with a lot of terrain they get strung out. I prefer to keep my squad sizes to 12 or less. Also interested in your take on poison vs non-poison swarm. I think the math shows that poison does more damage, but I assume you are aiming for the extra wounds to mitigate ranged damage?
2. Not really surprising. T4, 5+ save is weak and even 3 wounds a piece goes fast. 35 points is a lot to pay for T4, 5+ save and W3 especially with S8 ruining your day and having few targets that are juicier.
3. Dunno about this. Sure against green tide orks, but what about power armor or a rhino/razor wall? I don't see them doing much of anything. I imagine these are your objective camping units too, so you might wanna drop to 2 or 3 units, 4 seems overkill.
4. Your synapse is a lot more fragile then people who run swarmlord/guard and tervigons. Do you attach the primes to the hive guard or gants? Should keep them alive fairly long. positioning is going to key with this few though.
5. Genestealers do that, that's why I love em. Poison stealers under old adversary are obscene. Never seen anything shred face like them. I honestly think they are one of the most deadly units in the game on the charge.

Nice Yermom, I really like the list. It's small bug heaven Devgants are amazing and you'll see my next list showing up with 16 of them. Since that's 48 shots and 4 dead marines I'd say it's well worth it. 20 man units are fine generally as the only one I have problems manuevering is Gargoyles which is why I switch from 2 garg squads to a single huge one in my speedy list. Glad to see you having success with small bugs. I think you'll do just fine and I can't wait to hear how it goes at Mechanicon! I won't get to use my 2k Nids until the start of next year in a major GT

@Carnage
I found this many models to be very easy targets for blasts, luckily the orks didn't have any, but guard do worry me. I didn't really have a problem with maeunering. The raveners were tough because I had to be snazzy to get them to charge without any of them hitting cover. Also deploying with a gaunts screen and then having the raveners behind may lead to traffic jams in the early turns.

You pretty much got it on poison, I really needed the bodies.

Well againts parking lot lists (razorwolves/angels, mech guard) they tend to not have enough anti infantry for the threat of 40 stealers and 8 raveners on turn 2. Especially if I managed to spread everything 2" apart. Hopefully this will allow me to demech the army by turn 2 with huge multi charges and stupid amounts of rending. Now if my opponent is smart and doesn't deploy all his tanks in a line but rather in waves I will have to hit him in waves having say 1 stealers squad knock out the first 3 or so tanks while the raveners and other stealers threaten the next row. Once the army is dismounts the gautns clean up an average of 10 MEQ's a turn.

The gaunts also put 2 glancing hits per unit on armor 10. I'm counting on this to mess with dark eldar.

Primes start out joined to the raveners to absorb the S8 then the disengage and join the gaunts.

I've never really tried to run this many genestealers in unit, actually the most I've run competitively is 8. I was overly impressed by their damage output and their survivability in cover. Perhaps stronger MC nid lists will run a mix of stealer shock and mosterous creatures for buffs like feel no pain and preffered enemy.

@Hulk
Thanks Hulk! I was trying to make a competitive nid list that doesn't run monsters for so long lol. My only fear is ifI should take it to mechanicon or not. I'ts a lot of work to get done, but I'm sure if I pushed I could make it happen. But it's so new to me as an army I don't know how it will really do against the big dogs.

Yermom, I am also very interested to hear how you do with your interesting list, especially versus armor and template/blast lists. It is exciting to see a plan with no MCs. I also like using some devourer gaunts and raveners (not as many as you've used though you have piqued my interest).

So all this list-building is nice, but how about back to tactics? It's probably useful to review how manipulations of Synapse can be used to prevent stuff like No Retreat.

One thought that crossed my mind was accompanying a Termagant or Hormagaunt swarm with a Carnifex or Tryon (respectively), so that if things went pear-shaped, the Carnifex or Tryon could hold off the enemy while the little bugs fall back unmolested by Sweeping Advance. The risk being that while the little bugs would fall back, the enemy could lump wounds on them to make sure the big bugasaur dies from No Retreat wounds.

The second thought would be pulling that off on the table, because either the Carnifex would need to be able to charge first, so the that Termagants couldn't close directly in the Movement phase (no more Fleet), or the Carnifex would be cut out of the combat as the Termagants pile in.

Maybe some sort of variation on the lightbulb/conga line? Instead of deploying small bugs in blobs, try to deploy them with tendrils heading up the field in a Tyranid variation of the conga-line or lightbulb?

Nurglitch wrote:So all this list-building is nice, but how about back to tactics? It's probably useful to review how manipulations of Synapse can be used to prevent stuff like No Retreat.

No retreat is bad, but I'm not sure manipulating synapse to avoid it is really any better. You're trading the no retreat wounds for a significant risk of getting swept. For example. hormagaunts (I5) lose combat against marines (I4). If they're out of synapse they have a very low chance of passing leadership since they start at LD6. If they fail, they have a a 58% chance of escaping and a 42% chance of getting swept since ties go to the winner of the combat. If it's termagants those odds are inverted; they have a 58% chance of getting swept by marines.

One thought that crossed my mind was accompanying a Termagant or Hormagaunt swarm with a Carnifex or Tryon (respectively), so that if things went pear-shaped, the Carnifex or Tryon could hold off the enemy while the little bugs fall back unmolested by Sweeping Advance. The risk being that while the little bugs would fall back, the enemy could lump wounds on them to make sure the big bugasaur dies from No Retreat wounds.

No retreat wounds are a tried and true method of taking out MCs. If fexes could get armored shell I think it would be a better tactic. I think, but what kinds of situations lead you to wanting to sacrifice an MC so that some little bugs can get away? I think a Doom with max wounds could pull this off fairly easily, but you can only get one of him.

Just as a heads up for those of you that don't know I've started an article series on why I think Nids are competitive on my blog. Here are the links if your interested. Some of it is what's on here and more of it is my personal opinion on why and how Nids are competitive in 5th.

Part 1: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2010/10/can-tyranids-compete-part-1.html
Part 2: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2010/10/can-tyranids-compete-part-2.html
Part 3: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2010/10/can-tyranids-compete-part-3.html

And yes, I'm using an tactica I started to promote my blog where I continued my thoughts

Both your list segments on competitive nids include tervigons. Do you see any possibility for nids to be competitive without them?

I do have a list I'm working on currently that has 0 big bugs in it. I simply view it as limiting yourself to exclude certain units. I think it's possible to do it but it's very, very tricky As soon as I finish the article series I have a couple of lists I'm going to post up in various styles.

Is it worth running Hormagaunts without adrenal glands? I'm going to be running a unit of around 20, and I really don't want to end up with a 200+ point unit, so I'm probably leaving the adrenal glands off (still running Toxin Sacs to help counteract their S3).

I personally think it makes them far to expensive to run them with both. I generally choose toxin sacs as it allows them to wound everything well. Though to be fair if I have decent scoring stuff already I normally bring Garg's instead. They have the same maximum charge range, a gun, and cost the same with both upgrades that hormies cost with one.

Arschbombe wrote:Both your list segments on competitive nids include tervigons. Do you see any possibility for nids to be competitive without them?

Having recently won a best general award, I would say yes.

I faced:
Daemons of Chaos (with Fateweaver) - Massacre Victory
Imperial Gaurd (Mostly Mech) - Solid Victory
Eldar (Mech, with Jetloc Council) - Minor Victory
Space Marines (Scouts and Drop Pods) - Massacre Loss
Imperial Gaurd (Gunline) - Massacre Victory
Necrons (Double Lith and Nightbringer) - Massacre Victory

My list looked like this:

Tyranid Prime (Adrenals, Lash Whip, Regen)

3x Hive Gaurd

3x Zoanthropes

6x Warriors (2x Bonesword, Devourers, Toxin)

15x Genestealers (Toxin)

10x Genestealers

20x Hormagaunts (Toxin)

20x Hormagaunts (Toxin)

14x Termagants

Trygon Prime (Adrenals)

Trygon Prime (Adrenals)


The First thing I would like to comment on, in terms of tactics, is the need to cover units with Instinctive Behaviour/low Ld with lots of Synapse. This may sound obvious, but can be easy to overlook. In my game against marines, I made the mistake of only covering my Termagants, one Hormagaunt unit and my Hivegaurd with my Zoanthropes. Zoanthropes fail 6 of their 7 saves, and my entire flank goes nuts. Gants fled, Gaunts charged a Dreadnaught, Hivegaurd shot the wrong target. Both I and my opponent agreed that was the turning point of the game.

The Second Point that I would like o mention is what I call the 3G’s of expendability. ‘Gaunts, ‘Gants and Gargoyles. These are three units that are strong enough to be very deadly, yet cheap enough to come in large numbers and still be expendable. I tended to run my Hormagaunts into the meat grinder to buy me time/inflict a couple wounds on my enemies’ deathstar as often as I used them to inflict damage in the assault.

Finally, I would like to stress target saturation. As one opponent put it, “There’s too many of them!” S8+ weapons had some hard decisions to make. Did they want to shoot the warriors, causing instant death, or did they want to inflict the damage to the Trygons? Or the Hivegaurd and the Zoanthropes? My opponent quite often couldn’t decide whom to attack. Same with the horde of smaller bugs, and blast weapons. Things really got interesting when the blasts were S8+.

Edit: Forgot half my post!