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Depends how you look at Tyrants really. I will always take a tyrant, period. I love their look, their hitting power, their old adversary buff, everything. So, I'm spending ~250 on a winged tyrant, ~275-300 on a walking tyrant + guard or ~400 on a Swarmlord + 2 guard. The winged tyrant is the cheapest of the batch from my choices.

Taken in a vacuum, yeah 60 points is pretty steep for winging a HT when a chaos demon prince pays 20 and space marine commanders pay what, 20-25? But you are either going with a budget 100 point prime HQ, or are likely spending 250-400, there isn't really a lot of middle ground for Tyranids in the the 101-249 point range.

as above, HT's are expensive but fill a gap that needs to be filled in the tyranid army

-it is a MC that can chase down vehicles easily
-It can reroll hits so needing 6's isn't too bad
-paradoxm, hive commander, ect. are awesome bonuses.
-Flying synapse that isn't the parasite that can keep up with the awesome, undercosted gargoyle swarms. (man i wish that parasite was T5! :( )

I have been running a Strangle Thorn Cannon HT, I know suboptimal. But WYSIWYG(or close to), was great last edition when I had the VC on him. And personally he does very well on horde armies and once the mech gets opened up. I mainly want him for the out flanking ability. I love being able to have Genestealers and a unit of WArriors support from the sides, claim objectives and do a little bit of everything.

But lately I've been running a Prime and the Parasite, and I think this does well. I think I may drop the prime for a trevigon in my back line with the tryanofexs for the onslaught.

For a winged HT would running ST, LW/BS be a good load out?

I think the best build for the Flyrant is the twin devourer, although the whip and sword is fantastic and means he will obliterate units in the open and at least strike simo with units in cover.

Here's another thing I was supprised to not see in the tactica, that I thought was pretty obvious.

One of the great killers of tyranid swarms are no retreat wounds, they suck, but you can avoid a majority of them with proper squad use.

If you run your larger gargoyle or gaunt squads in a teardrop-shape, with your multiple smaller tervigon units near the front, during a turn when you assault, you have your synapse fall back and your gaunts move forward, after assault move only your big blob is within snapse radius, the others aren't. Usually your opponent would cause wounds to your one big unit, then no retreat to the others and cause massive damage (in theory)

however now, because of the lack of synapse, the "small squads" will properly fail leadership, be un-sweepable due to the one fearless unit in combat, auto-rally when they enter synapse again from the fallback move, and be ready to assault in again with furious charge on the next turn.

you lose one round of close combat due to falling back on your cc phase, but you save some bugs from an early death. which can be nice if you are rolling good on tervigons and are going to assault in with 4 or 5 units and dont want to lose an additonal 20 gaunts for no reason.

Reecius wrote:I think the best build for the Flyrant is the twin devourer, although the whip and sword is fantastic and means he will obliterate units in the open and at least strike simo with units in cover.

That's the tough split... Double tl dev is a very very strong choice for set up, but when you include the wildly popular mephiston, and now the agonizer wielding archon to the equation, then the LWBS becomes both a points discount and deterrent to those powerful units. In the case of meph, "Will I get my 4+ to wound and my psychic test to ID off past shadow in the warp in one attempt?" And in the case of the archon, "Will I fail one of the four 2++ he's going to make me take?"

As much as I am a shooter with nids... I am currently leaning towards the whip for tourneys.

I'd like to add a bit here about the winged tyrant. I agree with everyone about him being very difficult to get a lot of value out of. However, there is one list I am using him in where he is nearly required, and its already been tourney successful with nearly no practice.

flyrant, hive commander, tl devs

2x zoans pod
2x zoans pod
deathleaper

tervigon catalyst toxin adrenal
10x termagants pod
tervigon catalyst toxin adrenal
10x termagants pod

trygon adrenal
trygon adrenal
trygon adrenal


Thats my personal preference drop pod list. But there are quite a few flexible points for tweaks. Based on your own metagame. I play a lot at 1500 competitively, and so I've almost fallen out of 2000 points game size practice. A list like this could really utilize a unit of Ymgarls, I'm just a touch more comfortable with zoans, especially with the boost that deathleaper brings to non-space wolf hoods, but I think ymgars would be great here. Also as soon as I was comfortable with my amount of scoring units I would want to bring in gargoyles, as many as could fit. They aren't death dealing power houses, but LOS interference, tying up shooty units and large spreads for contesting objectives make them damn useful. Harpies are another unit that at larger points sizes could fit well into a list like this. And if they were taken, then I would probably lose zoans for Ymgarls. So plenty of personalization could happen here.

This army just terrorizes mech gunlines if played correctly, but it is quite weak to horde armies, the hive guard based walking nid list fares much better in that regard. The last RTT I took this to i managed some convincing wins against a tough ig gunline a mech space marine army and a mech eldar list. But I was banking too hard on the top tables being populated by MSU mech and who did I run into but Yakface with a really tuned kan wall. I hung in there for longer than I expected, but the trygons really don't want to be facing down guyspam.

Hold all in reserve, declare outflanking with one tervigon. Everything comes in on a 3+ on turn 2, and if deathleaper makes it, everything auto-comes in on turn 3. Do not over-extend, crash a flank and only allow a portion of his line to fight a potion of your own line. its a really fun way to play bugs in my opinion, especially when you need a break from MC gant farming.

@Grundz
That is some brilliant use of model positioning, I had not thought of that but will certainly make use of it. Thanks for sharing that.

@shep
Looks like a fun list, and effective. I swear, you sprue posse guys are turning Limey on us with all this 1500 point jibber jabber!

The whip/sword makes the flyrant dominant in combat against most opponents baring bloodcrushers and the like. However, he doesn't ever go after those, they are fodder for gargoyles and hormagants.

I like lists like yours for their ability to utilize multiple deployment methods, which makes for more interesting games and for greater flexibility. However, I can easily see where you would struggle with high numbers. An Ork horde would be your nemesis, or a small bug horde with poison. Although you don't see either that often in a tournament.

I am trying to make a tournament list without using tervigons. I like the big ugglies, but think that replacing them with more kill power can be a viable alternative to gant pooping.

Well, it looks like I might be getting a Heirophant instead of a Heirodule for Christmas, so I've been reading up on its rules. The Apocolypse book says that it gets a warp field save, which the 4th edition codex stated as a 2+ armour save and a 6+ invulnerable save. The Apocolypse book has the save as 2+, so I assume that is from the warp field.

However, the 5th edition Tyranid codex has the warp field as a 3+ invulnerable save. Does the heirophants save change to a 3+ invulnerable now?

Grundz - that sounds good!! But... Im having hard time getting my head around it - can you explain this a bit more? It sounds HUGE for bugs.

Basically Kaiser it's the way some people used Hormagaunts in the previous book when they were calvary and 5th edition happened. You start them in synapse. You move them forward and then charge the so that they are still barely in synapse or so that they are not (depends on what the unit is and what is happening). You then either will fall back if you lose or fall back next turn leaving the enemy unit open to being charged.

It's a way to avoid ridiculous "Fearless" wounds and it's like a poor man's hit and run. Works really well in the current edition with large gargoyle broods.

-Loki- wrote:Well, it looks like I might be getting a Heirophant instead of a Heirodule for Christmas, so I've been reading up on its rules. The Apocolypse book says that it gets a warp field save, which the 4th edition codex stated as a 2+ armour save and a 6+ invulnerable save. The Apocolypse book has the save as 2+, so I assume that is from the warp field.

However, the 5th edition Tyranid codex has the warp field as a 3+ invulnerable save. Does the heirophants save change to a 3+ invulnerable now?

It is something to discuss with your opponent before a game of Apocalypse (which is something you should be doing for all Apocalypse games anyway). If you are having difficulties reaching a consensus, simply use the rules from the 4th Edition book for the Heirophant (that's what thhey reference, and what the costs are balanced around). That should be a fallback though, as it opens up it's own can of worms (Heirophant Synapse from 4th for instance grants Eternal Warrior... :p). It is much better to openly discuss how you should translate the Heirophant's rules into the 5th Edition book (there is no official answer). A 3++ is very powerful, so consider putting a small price increase on the bargaining table if you're going down that route.

Yeah, I kinda figured that. A 3++ on a T9, W10 model is really powerful. Especially when it has regeneration as well.

Reecius wrote:I swear, you sprue posse guys are turning Limey on us with all this 1500 point jibber jabber!

We get to play 4 game RTTs.

How much synapse should I be looking at taking in a 1500pt army? I haven't run Tyranids before, and synapse worries me.

I'm looking at a Hive Tyrant, a unit of 5 warriors, 3 shrikes and a Tervigon. I want a Prime in there as well, but I'm having trouble fitting it.

That's plenty of Synapse. I see a lot of armies (at 2k!) get by on a Tyrant and pair of Tervigons, which is a bit light, but your army should have enough, especially with the mobile synapse of the Shrikes.

Really depends on whether your army is staying in one mass or splitting up. in fast moving chunks.

Basic idea is a central mass of Tyranids moving up the table based around the Tervigon and Warriors, with a large Hormagaunt brood, a couple of Carnifexes and some Hive Guard for offense, and the Tervigon spitting out Termigants to deposit on objectives to lurk. Second 'detachment' of sorts made up of the Shrikes, Winged Hive Tyrant and Gargoyles for a flank attack.

So it gives me 2 synapse units per group, one of warriors and one tougher MC.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Grundz - that sounds good!! But... Im having hard time getting my head around it - can you explain this a bit more? It sounds HUGE for bugs.

Its really important if you use tervigons since no retreat wounds can pretty handily eliminate the smaller units of them, if you have a big "anchor" unit though, your opponent has to chose between ignoring them and taking the attacks every other turn, or attacking and possibly overkilling the smaller units, leaving the bigger, more dangerous unit intact. Without the big anchor they can be swept which can be bad.

@Shep
Right, leaves you plenty of time for tea and crumpet brakes! Hahaha.

@Grundz
Thanks for breaking that down, that is a really good tactic that I had not thought of. I will definitely be using that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Loki
That is way more than enough Synapse, you'll be fine.

One thing though, Tyranid Warriors are pretty terrible. They just go down too easily to fists/claws/hammers/las cannons/meltas, etc. I think you will find yourself getting frustrated with them.

Reecius wrote:One thing though, Tyranid Warriors are pretty terrible. They just go down too easily to fists/claws/hammers/las cannons/meltas, etc. I think you will find yourself getting frustrated with them.

This, with a grain of salt.

If you have a load of other targets (read t6 wounds) then warriors can work.

Bonesword/Lashwhip + Deathspitter is my usual load-out (+biomorphs to taste). It is not cheap, but is rather effective and the best ways of dealing with them should be a hard choice to bring to bear. s8+ wounds going at warriors are not going at the MCs.

A prime with them helps, but is generally optional. It does make an excellent lascannon shot catcher, though.

Loss of Eternal Warrior probably hurt warriors worse than any other unit in the Tyranid Codex.
Giving them another wound was an insult added to the already annoying injury.

If they were only 2 wounds, they would be bolter-fodder beyond anything else (it's also how Zoans tend to die a lot...). That they're in a slot besides an AT one, and can bring a credible threat to melee over a small frontage, does help with target saturation issues.

MagicJuggler wrote:If they were only 2 wounds, they would be bolter-fodder beyond anything else (it's also how Zoans tend to die a lot...). That they're in a slot besides an AT one, and can bring a credible threat to melee over a small frontage, does help with target saturation issues.

If they were T5, they would be pretty awesome
If they were T4, 2W, and eternal warrior, they would be pretty good still
If they had some sort of other special rule that stopped 45-50pt models from being instant killed all the time forever, or a built in invulnerable or cover save they would be pretty awesome
If pretty much every army wasn't spamming Str 8+ weaponry to deal with mech, they would be pretty awesome.

Like alot of things in the codex, they are close to being great, but fall short except when you can get a unit full of boneswirds with adrenals and/or poison into combat and put a million power attacks on someone.

Reecius wrote:One thing though, Tyranid Warriors are pretty terrible. They just go down too easily to fists/claws/hammers/las cannons/meltas, etc. I think you will find yourself getting frustrated with them.

I don't really have to deal with S8 spam, since in my group people don't run much mech. Even if they did, I'd still bring warriors. Along with Carnifexes, they're my favorite Tyranid units, and I play for fun more than being competitive.

I personaly find that warriors are excellent vs things such as Khorne Berzerkers, especialy is paired with prime. They can soak up wounds that would kill a lot of smaller bugs without flinching, and a combo of Bonesword/Toxin sacks is murder on MEQ.

Grundz wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:If they were only 2 wounds, they would be bolter-fodder beyond anything else (it's also how Zoans tend to die a lot...). That they're in a slot besides an AT one, and can bring a credible threat to melee over a small frontage, does help with target saturation issues.

If they were T5, they would be pretty awesome
If they were T4, 2W, and eternal warrior, they would be pretty good still
If they had some sort of other special rule that stopped 45-50pt models from being instant killed all the time forever, or a built in invulnerable or cover save they would be pretty awesome
If pretty much every army wasn't spamming Str 8+ weaponry to deal with mech, they would be pretty awesome.

Like alot of things in the codex, they are close to being great, but fall short except when you can get a unit full of boneswirds with adrenals and/or poison into combat and put a million power attacks on someone.

If they were T5, I'd ignore them over most everything else (shoot the Hive Guard/Tervigons/other big thingies); they don't do enough damage at range, and their melee damage involves them getting into melee.
If they were T4/2W, I'd torrent them. This is how I dealt with them the times people *did* take Warriors in previous editions. By Bolter or Smart Missile System or Shuriken Cannon, or Multilaser.
If I were to find a way to get them out of cover, either of the terrain or Termagant variety (well you could divert Manticores from shooting the other units...), I would be rather proud of myself.

Grundz:

It's good to see that tactic getting its due!

On Warriors:

I think that you really need to give them a Barbed Strangler or a Venom Cannon if they're going to walk onto the board. The Venom Cannon may only be S6, but it'll give you some defense against light skimmers. The Barbed Strangler seriously cranks the firepower with a big 5" pie plate. Plus it diversifies the unit...

@Loki
Well then by all means, roll with what you like. If you read the title of the thread though, this is a competitive tactics thread, so anticipate that kind of advice here.

@Monster Rain
I use Warriors in my for fun list because I like them, but I would never bring them to a tournament just because of the prevalence of strength 8 spam out there, right now. I have had them with a Prime take a charge from GKT's with a Grand Master and wipe them all out. The Lash Whip/Bone Sword combo is nasty. I run them with Death Spitters and a Barbed Strangler, too.

If only they were tough 5, 2 wounds, they would be sweet. As they are now, they are just too expensive to be used competitively, IMO. I'd rather have more Genestealers who, for me, are the show stoppers in every game I have played so far.

Reecius wrote:@Loki
Well then by all means, roll with what you like. If you read the title of the thread though, this is a competitive tactics thread, so anticipate that kind of advice here.

Fair enough, though I am grateful that all of the warrior hate that goes around has tought me what to have them avoid in a game. To me, it's just another facet of Tyranids - everything has its weakness. Warriors weakness just happens to be in abundance if you face people who take a lot of S8. Around here, that's not much of a problem.

Yeah, your own experience is the best thing to go by, no doubt. And I wasn't trying to scare you off or anything, just letting you know the tone of the conversation in this thread. If something works for you were you play, then that is the most important yardstick. People on the internet tend to forget that the game is so local, a lot depends on how you play, who you play, the missions and the terrain. Around here, Warriors would get smashed in competitive play due to all the IG and Missile Wolves running around.

I like warriors. I used to field 2 units of 6 of them in the previous book. But I've found that even in this edition they simply don't make their points back for me in any way, shape or form. Part of that is the prolific missile launchers in my area and part of it is that they will rarely see combat against a canny opponent and their shooting leaves to much to be desired and costs far to much. I can get 10.5 St4 shots for the same cost at 3 St5 shots. Same number of wounds but far more survivable. Hence my choice would go to Dev Gants long before Warriors.

I'll second it come down to local meta that some things might work better than I, Reece, or Janth have found. But I started this tactica for those of us a) getting started or b) who like to travel to events outside of our local area. So don't take much anything here as gospel. It's just an excellent starting point for a more wide spread meta and it's a great saver for people just getting started to keep them from getting to frustrated.

On a side note I've started a Can Tyranids Compete series on my blog. I'll be posting the second part in the next few days dealing with list building.

Ran my first game with gargoyles last night and had some concerns about them. When they charged into combat, the large size and awkward models made it almost impossible to get them all into combat. Out of 12 models I only had 5-6 in base to base or within 2 inches of his marines. Has anyone else seen this as an issue?