Offical fluff source for Warhammer 40k. Starwars v.s. Warhammer 40k debate

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**xXSir MontyXx**

ya, the sheer populace of the Imperium is insane. The fact that the republic almost lost to a droid army cuz of numbers brings to light that the Imperium has to fend off forces of billions for a 'nid invasion for instance. If the Imperium can do that, and still recover. Thats evidence that they could just throw themselves at the SW universe until they were all dead.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ya, the sheer populace of the Imperium is insane. The fact that the republic almost lost to a droid army cuz of numbers brings to light that the Imperium has to fend off forces of billions for a 'nid invasion for instance. If the Imperium can do that, and still recover. Thats evidence that they could just throw themselves at the SW universe until they were all dead.

**IvanTih**

Now more proofs of gigaton to teraton firepower(and one from Nemesis which is high end for 40k in my opinion).

A Nova cannon is a huge weapon, normally mounted in the prow of a ship so that the recoil it generates can be compensated for by the vessel's engines. It fires a proejctile at incredible velocity, using graviometric impellers to accelerate it to close to light speed. The projectile implodes at a preset distance after firing, unleashing a force more potent than a dozen plasma bombs.

Assume only (since it could be so much higher) 20% C for the projectile, and that it weighs only 1000kg. We still get two gigatons from the projectile from KE alone, disregarding the explosion that is more potent than a dozen plasma bombs (see: 1 OoM higher).

Caves of Ice: Pages 166-167
Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.

Of course the planet would be rendered uninhabitable for generations, but no one in their right mind would be willing to set foot here once the necron presence was known in any case, so the question was moot.

Page 106 also specifies that the ice is "tens of kilometers" deep, and that's what the Necrons are buried under. So in the very least, the orbital weapons can (in a couple Barrages, let's say under a dozen) melt through 20+ kilometers of ice, wipe out the Necron facility, and as a side-effect render the planet uninhabitable for generations. I'd say this supports more than megaton-level broadsides.

Battlefleet Gothic: Page 78
The attacking fleet is escorting Extermiantors, ships capable of laying waste to entire planetary populations or even obliterating all life on a world in a matter of hours.

All life killed in a matter of hours. In the very least, I find it very unlikely that a fleet that's sum armory is maybe ten or twenty gigatons could nuke everything to hell and back. Especially considering the presence of Hive Shields that can withstand constant bombardment from thousands of enemy artillery pieces for days.

Originally Posted by Battlefleet Gothic: Somewhere (May be one of the supplement books)
DOMINATOR BATTLESHIP
The Dominator comes from the same family of ships as the Tyrant and Emperor. It is armed with the awesome inferno cannon. This massive cannon is mounted along the entire length of the Dominator's hull. The huge shells are loaded at the rear of the ship in a cavernous chamber positioned above the roaring fury of the Dominator's plasma drives.
Each inferno cannon shell is the size of a tall building, its warhead packed with explosive. The shells are moved from the ship's magazine on great tracked transport vehicles that crawl along echoing tunnels down the length of the ship. The shells are loaded by powerful winches, guided by an army of engineers whose prayers ring through the chambers. As the huge breech closes, the gun crews leave the chamber - no man could withstand at short range the awesome concussion produced as the shell is fired.
The shell accelerates down the long barrel of the cannon, reaching a searing velocity that hurls it out into space. The whole ship shudders with the recoil of the cannon - indeed, it is constructed with massively reinforced bulkheads and hull supports to withstand the powerful shockwaves.
When the shell detonates it releases a ball of radioactive fire that forms a sphere of destruction kilometres across. Not only the cannon's target, but any ship close to it receives a deadly blast of intense heat, energised particles and huge jagged shards of shrapnel larger than most sub-stellar spaceships.
The inferno cannon is affectionately known as the Planet Buster by a Dominator's crew because it is often used in planetary assaults to rain fire down on enemy cities. A single shell is powerful enough to destroy all but the largest cities, leaving only flattened ruins around a crater many hundreds of metres deep. When an enemy planet learns that a Dominator has entered the star system, it is rare for a complete and unconditional surrender not to follow swiftly.

Yep, typical megaton weaponry leaves holes hundreds of meters deep in the ground underneath the city they were fired against.

Rogue Trader: Page 98
In theory there is no reason why any of the grenade and missile types shouldn't be available in larger support versions. It would be possible to manufacture a missile of any size: from a weapon little larger than a normal launcher shell, to one capable of wiping out a city, province or continent.

It is a possibility for 40K ships to bear missiles that can wipe out a province / continent.

****************

Tyranid Codex 4th Edition: Page 21
Using their ship's teleporter array, the Deathwatch then sent megatons of high-grade explosives into the heart of a nearby moon, Gheist. The resultant explosion not only destroyed the moon, but also diverted the passing space hulk's course deep into the empire of the Orks of Octavius.

Only megatonnes fired...

Through a teleporting device. IoM cannot send several gigatons worth of ordinance through teleporters.

Nemesisage 255
Dagonet was all but dead now, her surface a mosaic of burning cities, churned oceans
and glassed wastelands. And yet this was a show of restraint from the Sons of Horus;
had they wished it, the world could have suffered the fate of many that had defied the
Warmaster, cracked open by cyclonic torpedo barrages shot into key tectonic target
sites, remade into a sphere of molten earth.

More proof.

These enough examples for you to support gigaton-plus bombardments?

**nosferatu1001**

And the point was that *none* of that constitutes proof, because BL authors say they make things up for the story, or that they are nto "objectively" true, just recollections or observations of the protagonists involved.

Saying "X was blown up by weapon Z, therefore this PROVES Y yield" is meaningless when BL have essentially stated:

- X may not have blown up at all, or even been there
- Z may not have existed
- Z may not have been the only weapon used, just the only one observed / recalled by the viewer.

And so on.

BL books do not constitute proof in any meaningful sense, because BL authors have stated they are not "the truth"

**ChrisWWII**

Even though it doesn't provide the 'truth' it does indeed tell us what is not the truth. Not to mention, you have to provide evidence other than 'there is a possibility that it might be wrong' before utterly dismissing such evidence. This isn't a jury trial.

E.g. If a BL book says that an Imperisl ship destroys an asteroid, or obliterates a city from orbit, that shows that there weaponary has a minimum level, and combined with other evidence allows us to place yields within certain reasonable limits.

More importantly though, if we say BL books can't count, then how can we really debate? I can just as easily say the SW film were OBVIOUSLY edited by a third party, so the Death Star CLEARLY can't destroy a planet, not to mention the EU has an extreme Rebellion/New Republic bias, so is an untrustworthy source.

We have to assume SOMETHING is reasonably allowable as a source for a debate to occur...and for 40k, that's assuming that the BL books are, if not perfect, at least reasonable as sources.

**nosferatu1001**

But the point was you cannot state the levels of certainty that posters have been.

Plus it isnt even a "it might be wrong" possibilitiy - it's "this might never have happened and was just the lucid fiction of the protagonist while drinking amasec at a bar" - so to assert 100% truth values, which is what posters ARE doing, really stretches it.

Plus your counter examples really arent counter examples: the BL position is an official stance by the authors. Your examples are not at all analogous to this.

I am not saying something isnt allowable, it should just be tempered - which it isnt being.

[it also suggests that assuming some super science for power generation is stretching things a little If the books and physics disagree, and you KNOW that, at best, they are embellishments of "truth", that perhaps physics may have a say....]

**ChrisWWII**

You have a point, but even assuming a degree of embellishment, the destruction of a city or other significant object can be assumed to be true. If we assume the BL books are in universe documentation, written by a lay viewer, he/she would still be able to say 'the shiny laser hit the big rock, and the big rock went boom', and be perfectly correct. He's seen the effect of the weapon, and has described the results for us.

A more physics inclined reader can then take the descritptions, and juse them to try and figure out a minimum power level for what happened. I personally think that a good example would be if I were to describe a nuclear ground detonation. If I were to describe the crater it left behind as 'as deep as a football field' then someone could generate a rough estimate of how big said nuke was, even if I'm incapable of giving such a definition.

It's true that my counter examples aren't perfect.....to my knowledge no SW author has ever said 'my chars could just be making this up to mess with yah', but the point still stands that we have no other sources to corrobarate with, so determining what's true and what's artistic embellishment in either case is near impossible.

And on the real physics thing....so many things in 40k wouldn't work in reality. Chainswords for one, but we have descriptions of them doing specific things, and those specific things (even assuming embellishment) are beyond modern physics enough that we have to assume some kind of futuristic work around for the problem, that we (and most likely the narrator) has no idea about.

**nosferatu1001**

The link was in the ST vs 40k thread a while back, and my seearch-fu is weak (assuming search works)

I thought they had "fixed" chainswords in the Firedrake novel by giving them different settings based on what you were facing - unarmoured vs ceramite, etc?

**ChrisWWII**

Oh yeah, I remember that....I started that thread I think.

Well, I'm not sure...the only 40k novels I've read are Gaunt's Ghosts and the first book of Eisenhorn....but I was more referring to it should be impossible for a chainsword to cut deep, thanks to the guard on top. Not to mention, the sheer difficulty in controlling such a weapon one handed.....

Ah well, Rule of Cool.

**nosferatu1001**

Bah, you should read more - Eisenhorn gets brilliant, and Ravenor is fairly twisted as well....

How would the top edge guard stop it cutting in? As long as it is past the median point at the top edge you would have a cutting edge all the way down.

Rule of cool wins out most times

**Grey Templar**

it is true that Chainswords couldn't cut very deep, but they don't have to.

they are designed to cause massive external bleeding.

Blunt objects can cut through a human body when enough force is applied. if you look at authentic Medievil weaponry you will see that 2 handed swords weren't sharp at all. you could run your hand down the entire blade and have nothing happen. it was tapered to a dull point and yet these weapons were capable of cutting a person in 2 from collerbone to pelvis.

the Weight and force behind the weapon is a major factor in cutting power. the wedge that is sharpened into the blade(still pretty dull) is forced through soft flesh easily and actually have a greater chance of penetrating bone that a sharp impliment.

the Trauma of the blunt object causes more trauma in other areas of the body. there isn't bleeding just at the cut, but in the whole vicinity.

if your arm was cut off with a Katana(the sharpest blade ever developed) you would have a decent chance of survival if your arm was patched up quickly. if it had been a Zwihandar you would have to get patched up very quickly and you would be suffering massive trauma.

the Katana bisects flesh perfectly. a duller edge might take a few inch chunk out. if you held up the severed Katana arm the 2 pieces would match almost perfectly. an arm cut off with a Zwihandar would be absolutly mangled, the surface area of damage would be far greater.

**nosferatu1001**

Plus holding a high torpue chainsword in one hand seems like a recipe for disaster. I assume the blades have VERY low friction to avoid it twisting you round rather than cutting....

**Grey Templar**

Guard chainswords are probably lower power then Marine ones for just that purpose.

if your wearing PA and are strong enough you won't have to worry about getting smacked in the face

Now Evisorators on the other hand...

**AndrewC**

BearersOfSalvation wrote:What do you mean by 'you' there?...

I've pointed out that 40k plasma reactors are clearly not fusion reactors as GW doesn't actually say they're fusion reactors and they clearly do things fusion reactors don't do. I've pointed out that the argument 'they use plasma, they must be fusion, therefore 40k ships are limited to fusion power outputs' doesn't make any sense as an argument. And I've pointed out some real physics bits on laser ranges and power outputs. As far as I remember, I haven't even commented on SW directly, so I'm not sure how you think I'm trying to limit them or failing to unlimit them.

No, not "you" in particular, "you" as in one side of a discussion.

There was a previous thread in which weapons yield was a major factor to the discussion. One side, 40K, was limited by the stance, our background says we have this ability, the other side, ST in this case, was our photons have this yeild, to which the response was well physics says you can't regardless of what your background says.

Cheers

Andrew

**ChrisWWII**

I think it was actually me who made that claim, and the situations are vastly different.

In Star Trek, there are specifics given on the yield of a photon torpedo. I believe it's....12 something kg of antimatter combined with 12 kg of matter? I can't recall off the top of my head, but no matter. The point is that there they have specifics, and those specifics lead to a conclusion defined by physics, since you can't change the amount of energy released. Now, if the warhead of a photon was described as say.....10 kemtquads of antimatter, then we'd have to default to what's on screen since we have no idea what a kemtquad is. However, we know what a kilogram is, and we know how many atoms of antimatter in a kilogram, and we know how much energy is released when an atom of antimatter and matter collide and react. That information leads physics to put a maximum cap on how far up the ladder a photon torp detonation can go. (That's the trouble with using technobabble...it sounds cool, but you then try to make real physics fit, and bad things happen

)

Now, in 40k, we have no such limits. They don't say that the main reactor of a torpedo or of a battleship is a fusion reactor with x, y, and z specifications. If they'd done that, then I'm whole heartedly in support of that being the upper limit. However, they don't do that, instead, they say it has a 'plasma reactor' or whatever it is (plasma fusion? I don't know), and list what it can do. We don't know anything about this reactor except what it can do. As such, we can't try to apply real world physics to it, since we don't know what to apply.

**IvanTih**

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the point was that *none* of that constitutes proof, because BL authors say they make things up for the story, or that they are nto "objectively" true, just recollections or observations of the protagonists involved.

Saying "X was blown up by weapon Z, therefore this PROVES Y yield" is meaningless when BL have essentially stated:

- X may not have blown up at all, or even been there
- Z may not have existed
- Z may not have been the only weapon used, just the only one observed / recalled by the viewer.

And so on.

BL books do not constitute proof in any meaningful sense, because BL authors have stated they are not "the truth"

Maybe in your mind,BL novels are used to do calcs and the entire debate community does that.
Besides you have ignored feats outside BL novels.
Novels are representation of reallity of their respective universe and are used.

**AndrewC**

ChrisWWII wrote:I think it was actually me who made that claim, and the situations are vastly different.

Yes and no. I think a degree of flexibility has to be granted to both sides. The torpedo is listed as containing 1.5kg AM, but rates the explosion as variable isotons. No-one knows what an isoton is so there is a reversion to present day physics and the conversion of M/AM as the limit. Now one small niggle with that was that there was a denial of the upper figures but not with the lower figures, ie using 1.5kg of AM as a firework.

We have the same problem with some of the 40K tech. Power reactors seem to be referred to as plasma/fusion interchangeable in some sources and not referred to at all in others. So people revert to what is understandable (me) and use plasma/fusion/fission as a benchmark. I do insist that any meaningful comparision has to be an acceptance at face value of any 'inhouse' abilities without saying present day physics would prohibit such an ability.

Cheers

Andrew

OT, when you get to the bunker, try and sit through the 50/60s nuclear safety films, the sheer audacity of what was presented is breathtaking, especially when it was all a lie.

@Ivan, I prefer the new avator over the old one

**IvanTih**

@Andrew C
Thanks.
As for the firepower I've provided a ton evidence for gigaton+ firepower,but again we have low ends like Execution Hour and Shadow Point and in the end the personal preference matters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The novels are published by Games Workshop using their jealously guarded IP. Why wouldn't we consider them accurate? Background material changes invalidate stuff in the rule books and codexes so why should novels be subjected to being thrown out as a category for the same reason?

**Azure**

xXSir MontyXx wrote:ya, the sheer populace of the Imperium is insane. The fact that the republic almost lost to a droid army cuz of numbers brings to light that the Imperium has to fend off forces of billions for a 'nid invasion for instance. If the Imperium can do that, and still recover. Thats evidence that they could just throw themselves at the SW universe until they were all dead.

There was alot more political action going on at the time causing troops to literally be thrown away and seeing as Palpatine was, again, quite literally in command of the two sides he was just wearing both sides down to the nubs in order to have a smooth transition to power. The entirety of the Clone Wars was nothing more then a power play several hundred years in the making.

**nosferatu1001**

Chris - except they then use technobabble to say the explosion is "enhanced" - which is also how the variable yield must occur, as takng containment off a lump of AM should yield the same explosion no matter what you do....

and dont even get started on quantum torpedoes, which appear to deal with zero point energy but need to "charge up" somehow....

IvanTIH - because BL have stated that the books can be distortions of real events, or even entirely made up? the "entire debate community" can be wrong, you know, it IS possible to challenge the basis of calculation and show that even the authors are saying they cannot be trusted as any measure of objective truth - it is at best subjective and thus liable to distortion.

To then basis entire reams of calculations from that as entirely reliable "proof", with no caveats, is a dangerous way to debate. Knowing the limitiations of your own evidence is rather crucial, surely?

We've also provided evidnce that, using matter energy conversion that can be no better than fusion (as the next step up is AM/M, we know they use "fuel" of some source so it isnt zero point (which wouldnt use plasma anyway) and so on) the energy outputs you have calculated are impossible to produce - 1 solar mass output from something 0.1% SM is not even close. This, combined with the FACT that you have been told that the books are not necessarily the truth tells you that perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, your figures might be a little on the optimistic side?

OR, you could respond to this with another snide remark. Up to you.

(PS: the novels are published by Black Library. Not GW.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: to further add to the rediculous side: the suppsoed size and weight of torpedos, and the loadout each ship is suppsoed to have, results in the entire volumne of the ship needed JUST TO CARRY the torpedos. WHich again we know to be false.

Lending more credence to the unreliable nature of 40k "physics", surely?

**Grey Templar**

you do realize how large IoM ships are right? a Cobra class Escort is slightly larger then an ISD.

Torpedos arn't that big, even if they have massivly powerful warheads and weight doesn't matter in zero G.

IoM ships do run out of ammo quite often(something that doesn't happen in SW very much BTW) and need to resupply.

BL books may be "false" events, propaganda as to what happened, but weapon outputs can still be held to be accurate. the realitive power of the same weapon doesn't vary accross different books enough to cast suspicion on the yields. i belive many of the Calcs are based on the lower end results anyway.

**nosferatu1001**

Well, speeds of ships certainly do vary - for example I have never seen "FTL" used outside of Warp travel, yet one poster is claiming they have it, and some books seem to give high-C capable craft when other books have days to move across systems / out to stable warp gates.

YEs, I know how big the ships are - hence the 1SM vs 0.1%SM comparison. I'll have to dig the figures out but it was a claimed count of torpedos fired in an engagement that, if true, resulted in most of the ship being storage for them. Torpedos are freakinghuge in the fluff, 10s of metres, even bigger for the StSpace ones (see storm of Iron)

Weapon yields cannot be held to be accurate if the event you are basing the yield on is not known to be true. For example if you determine X Gtonne yield based on asteroid being YKm across being vaped then if it turned out the asteroid was only "really" Y/3KM across then your calculations are now more than one order of magnitude off.

WHich was the point: known science gives an upper bound on "matter" based energy production that is not even close to the yields being calculated from BL and other sources for shield output - by many orders of magnitude. Even M/AM wouldnt be enough if the high end figures are "accurate". Which lends credence to:

BL writers dont know gak about physics, they just write what is cool

Hence trying to make an accurate "what would happen" is nigh on impossible and ultiimately futile.

**sourclams**

Since the exact same argument against writers understanding realism applies for Star Wars, wouldn't you just have to go on scale and the 'Good Big Man beats Good Small Man' adage?

An IoM capital ship can rip apart an IoM Destroyer in a single partial salvo. Since GE capital ships are the size of IoM Destroyers then even slightly superior tech won't offset the disgusting advantage in scale.

Similarly very few conflicts are resolvable only by fleet actions in orbit; to truly take and hold territory ground actions are necessary and there again Star Wars simply has nothing that even begins to compare to the mass troop warfare commonly waged by IoM; thus even if the space fight is 'too close to call' due to technical limitations and writer liberties, wouldn't the disadvantage in ground capabilities by the SW universe put them at a significant burden of proof?

**punkow**

SW universe has main characters that have the "invincible" special rule active everytime... so there isn't any hope for IoM... a fething Skywalker is enough to wipe out the whole cadian defense system.

And don't forget that also Trekkers could be a menace. Jean-luc picard would use his coolness to induce the entire imperium to rebel against the adeptus ( and he has a cell phone sized deice capable of unlimited distruction ... yes, phasers would be S10 AP1 range Unlimited in 40k)

**sourclams**

Don't named characters always just cancel out? Vader vs Marneus Calgar, Mara Jade vs Shrike, Emperor versus Tigurius, Newly Made Up guy vs Generic Chapter Master ...

**Grey Templar**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, speeds of ships certainly do vary - for example I have never seen "FTL" used outside of Warp travel, yet one poster is claiming they have it, and some books seem to give high-C capable craft when other books have days to move across systems / out to stable warp gates.

YEs, I know how big the ships are - hence the 1SM vs 0.1%SM comparison. I'll have to dig the figures out but it was a claimed count of torpedos fired in an engagement that, if true, resulted in most of the ship being storage for them. Torpedos are freakinghuge in the fluff, 10s of metres, even bigger for the StSpace ones (see storm of Iron)

Weapon yields cannot be held to be accurate if the event you are basing the yield on is not known to be true. For example if you determine X Gtonne yield based on asteroid being YKm across being vaped then if it turned out the asteroid was only "really" Y/3KM across then your calculations are now more than one order of magnitude off.

WHich was the point: known science gives an upper bound on "matter" based energy production that is not even close to the yields being calculated from BL and other sources for shield output - by many orders of magnitude. Even M/AM wouldnt be enough if the high end figures are "accurate". Which lends credence to:

BL writers dont know gak about physics, they just write what is cool

Hence trying to make an accurate "what would happen" is nigh on impossible and ultiimately futile.

the question with BL books is never that what happened was exaggerated. it is weather it actually happened in the first place. we assume that things arn't exaggerated, but that they never took place at all.

The Question isn't weather said asteroid was Y/3km or Ykm and it blew up. the question is weather said asteroid was shot in the first place.

We assume what we are told is accurate, assuming everything happened int he first place.

Characters don't cancel out. 40k has guys that throw fething DEAMONS back whence they came. if Angron came face to face with ANY SW or STrek character(especially Star Trek) they would

their pants and run.

and if "Rool of Cool" is used then 40k still wins. we have 8ft tall super humans who carry guns that fire exploding ammo at other 8ft tall super humans who have the same guns. you have an enemy that is scared of cute little balls of fur.

Phasers operate on Thermal conduction to destabilize matter. Ceramite conducts zero heat. Phasers therefore are useless against Ceramite armor(which covers all 40k ships and Space Marines) and the Federation won't even make it to ground warfare.

**IvanTih**

nosferatu1001 wrote:snip

You will of course provide quote that BL has said that.
BL is subsidiary of GW and therefore BL novels are cannn.
As for 610 gigaton torpedo,why does anyone rant about that not possible.
Possibly they have found way around the limitations.
Prove it's actually been contradicted. And don't blather about the quote being "edited outi n the various editions.
Provide evidence that the source you refer to is an outlier. Have you done some sort of analysis of a broad range of sources to come to this conclusion ?
That reminds me, hypocrisy, you are happy to apply mass lightening to everything and its mum, but matter compression technology is mean and evil ?
Particularly when the standard approach to canon in 40k is everything is valid, so "logically" you would need to find a contradiction before you can even begin to walk down such a path of logic.
Novels are however, supposed to be the more realistic portrayals of the setting, as opposed to balanced rules.
I'd rather derive from "reality" then try and work backwards from something where the reasoning behind it is generally obfuscated.

**TyraelVladinhurst**

the main question is preheresy or post? as it wasn't stated in the first post let us consider this. preherey IOM could DESTROY the empire, post heresy it'd take the high lords months if not years to mobilize a force to stop the empire....

**Grey Templar**

yes, the post heresy IoM would take a while to respond, but the IoM's defenses are so massive that they can take the time.

once they do respond the GE is sooooo dead.

610 gigatonns is certainly possible. 10 years before Hiroshima, no one even dreamed of Nuclear bombs and their destructive power. the developers of the Atom Bomb weren't even sure if the bomb getting dropped was going to work. they had only tested a prototype that wasn't even dropped from a plane, but was on top of a tower and they had never tested the final bomb casing. same thing applied to the 2nd bomb(which was a Hydrogen bomb since we ran out of Uranium making the test bomb and the one dropped on Hiroshima)

perhaps the IoM has discovered a new Radioactive element that is even more energy packed then any currently known element

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

I don't really understand the arguement going on here, as it involves physics, something I've never been good at. But what I do notice is the use of logic. Even though I hate logic and all it's subcategories, I have a good enough grasp of it from univeristy to provide a little tid bit of information..

For someting to be proven false, one must need a counter arguement. Something that shoew that the arguement is false, or a contradiction. From what I've seen there is little of that. (unless it's in the physics I don't understand). Merely stating that it cannot be true and providing examples where it cannot be true is not a good enough counterarguement. One must prove the other false using the bases given.

SO DO IT PEOPLE!

**Azure**

With the right Application the Galaxy Gun could be horrifyingly devastating. Assuming that the IoM is tied down with politics the GE could send scout ships to start marking out star charts in order to get a good feel for how to hop around hyperspace and creating hyperspace lanes that are reliable in use. Then after mapping out all this the fleet could station itself in some remote part of the galaxy that no one has visited and effectively take out Everything Ever, though it would have to move after taking out everything within the 5 parsec range. And since we are using a time line where we still have a formed GE we can ignore the bit about it being destroyed.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_Gun