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camboyaz wrote:One word: FETHING DEATH STAR.

Oh, thats 3!

Actually no.... The Death Star would get owned by a single lance strike and they only have 2.....

No, Kirk would seduce Slaanesh his/herself, and be crowned the new KING of Pleasure.

But in all honesty, yeah these pop up a lot. Mainly because cross-over can be awesome as all hell if done right, and people like to try and do it right. I'm not opposed to these threads.....they can lead to some interesint debates. It's when the debate falls into: CHARACTER X/TECHNOLOGY Y WILL KILL EVERYTHING AND YOU'RE A SHEEP IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE ER!

Then it's not so fun.

Edit: Death Star? Meet Nova Cannon. Not enough? Meet 500 Nova Cannons. Still not enough? Meet Cyclonic torpedo. Even if it destroyed a few planets....the Imperium cares WHY?

ChrisWWII wrote:

Edit: Death Star? Meet Nova Cannon. Not enough? Meet 500 Nova Cannons. Still not enough? Meet Cyclonic torpedo. Even if it destroyed a few planets....the Imperium cares WHY?

QFT. Planets mean very little to the imperium. Not to mention the death star kind of just hangs around in one place.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:

Edit: Death Star? Meet Nova Cannon. Not enough? Meet 500 Nova Cannons. Still not enough? Meet Cyclonic torpedo. Even if it destroyed a few planets....the Imperium cares WHY?

QFT. Planets mean very little to the imperium. Not to mention the death star kind of just hangs around in one place.

Unless if it is an Astrates Home-world or a hive world production place. or a Mechanicum world. Which is impossible to destroy.

Even if Macragge were lost, how long do you think it would have been before Terra heard about it? And besides, looking Rynn's World as an example.....The Imperium could survive the loss of any world except Terra. Be annoyed by it? Potentially. But be crushed? Unlikely.

Well then the Death Star will just Hyper Space over to Terra, and POOF, the Imperium loses!

Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.

Terra has death stars protecting it too...sorry.

Not to mention, in the SW background blind jumping into hyperspace is a very very BAD thing to do. As Han Solo said, you can easily end up crashing into something big and dieing a horrible horrible death if you blind jump. The SW forces would have to map their way to Terra (fighting off Imperial defenses and attacks the whole way there.....) before they could hope to jump in the Death Star (and then proceed to fight their way through Terra's defenses).

And that's assuming that jumping through hyperspace doesnt take them through Daemon territory.

GalacticDefender - then you would have a black hole. In addition you would also be trying to move a stellar mass when you dont have inertia avoiding engines - bad times. And as they dont use black holes for power sources (plasma fusion, so "old" fusion tech by todays standards of research) that makes that point still not "true" - you cannot be consistent here: they use fusion, which places an upper limit on energy output, meaning the weapon yields given are simply impossible to achieve.

The main thing I was trying to say is: BL make things up, and dont have a clue about physics. Even more than ST / SW writers, who at least acknowledge when they are avoiding physics (ref: Q: "how does the Heisenberg Compensator work?" A: "Very well") - something BL dont knw as they never think these things through. They have even admited that no BL book is "true" - it is always esssentially hearsay...

Even if BL does make things up, the effects they show of the weapons firing are still valid, even if the words they use aren't the same as the ones we use. So saying that a plasma fusion reactor is obviously based on ancient fusion technology isn't necessarily true. Saying that the weapons yields described as false are untrue too....why? Because we've seen them used, and we've seen those yields. Somehow they managed to achieve it, even if the wording of their technology, and modern day physics says it's impossible.

So when you accept that BL makes things up you dont think that throws their representation of, and yields of, weapons ever so slightly suspect?

They are plasma fusion reactors as it is mentioned on more than one occasion. For a start it isnt AM/M, the only viable way to get 0.1% solar mass to output 1 solar mass energy.

I think that the representation of the yields of the weapons, are alright. Assuming full suspension of disbelief, and that the books are real historical records, memoirs, etc. I'd say that the yields in a general sense are not suspect.

It's like taking a layperson, having them watch a nuke go off, and asking them to describe the power. They're not going to give a PERFECT definition, but it'll be a decent one, and fairly accurate too.

Except the authors have stated they are not "authoritative" within the universe - they are just local versions / interpretations of what happened.

The yields are ~10^9 out of whack with what ships that size, using fusion, can manage.

This might not be what this thread is for, but we still haven't heard how well all the other 40k races would do against the star wars universe.

Or the Tyranids have already eaten them long ago, in a galaxy far far away.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The yields are ~10^9 out of whack with what ships that size, using fusion, can manage.

So, clearly 40k ships don't use fusion engines. I know it's like a religious point for some people here, but no one has yet to point to any authoritative 40k source stating that 40k ships use fusion and only fusion for power. All I've ever seen anyone put forward to 'prove' this is an offhand comment by a non-technical character and a wiki page that doesn't actually quote any GW or BL book. All of the BFG books simply refer to ships as powered by 'plasma reactors' without additional detail, they don't say 'oh yeah, these are fusion reactors'.

SW does have safe space travel in that it doesn't take them through the warp and expose them to deamons.

they can get around faster, but when they reach a planet they wish to conquor they will come up on a problem. most planets, that would be targeted anyway, have a small* space fleet. often consisting of 1-2 cruisers and up to a dozen escorts. We know for a fact that a Victory class GE cruiser is just about the same size as a IoM escort and IoM cruisers are much larger then a Star Destroyer. even if the GE outnumbered the IoM space fleet(which they don't) they would have an uphill battle as far as ship match ups.

*realitivly speaking



the distance at which navel engagements happen in both universes also gives the advantage to the IoM.

in Star Wars, battles are happening at very close range(less then 1/2 mile seperating vessals) and the ships are in visible range of each other(and with very small ships that must be very close indeed)

the IoM battles are distanced in hundreds of Kilometers. ships the size of Los Angeles can't see each other aside from their scanners. they are trading broadsides that are simply pointed in the right direction that cause hundreds of fatalities with each shot and yet a ship sustains only minor damage.

one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!




taking these facts we can draw some conclusions.

The scanners and targeting computers from Star Wars are vastly inferior to the IoM. Why? because they can only target ships at a realitivly close range. this explains why they fight at such rediclously shot ranges. we could conclude that the IoM would detect the incoming ships and begin firing long before they appeared on the GE scopes.

Star Wars weaponry would, aside from torpedos, be stopped by Void Shields. Void Shields likely work by transporting dissapating the incoming projectiles energy. Energy weapons would be rendered quite ineffective as long as the void generators held.

Hull Thickness: if we give the IoM a little handicap and say the Adamentium isn't a natural substamce and is simply Steel reinforced with Carbonfibres. the IoM still wins by virtue of Hull thickness. they have hulls that are often up to 9 meters thick. Star Wars couldn't have hulls that thick and still have the crew sizes they have.

"Plasma" doesnt generate energy, however plasma-based "hot" fusion does.

They definitely dont use M/AM technology, which was the point - the only way to get close to that power output is to use M/AM, there is literaly no way a matter-based system can get close.

They can miniaturise it effectively, yes, which is impressive. BUt the weapon yields are simply and unutterably WRONG by any objective assessment.

Quite simply put: nontechnical writers suck when trying to put physics into stories, and BL admit they make things up to make the story good. So why treat the supposed yields as "true" when you are told the ENTIRE STORY can be entirely untrue?

It's like being told you're reading a work of fiction but then taking it as entirely true that bears make and eat porridge. When every objective fact tells you that is unlikely do you carry on believing it, despite being told it is fiction?

Grey Templar wrote:

one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!

Actually, they don't always. The Old Republic uses Plasma based weaponry because ionized plasma is more effective against droids than the photon particle beams generated by other blasters.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blaster#Blaster_mechanics

Note: the Photon particle beams shot by the Blastech E-11 Carbine uses a mixture of laser and compressed gas for its bolt:

"In particle-beam based blasters, like the E-11 used by stormtroopers, a small amount of high-energy gas moved from the Heter valve to the chamber commonly called the XCiter. In the XCiter chamber, the gas was energized by the power pack, then passed into the actuating blaster module, which, when assisted by the components in the barrel, processed the now extremely high-energy gas into a compressed beam of intense energy particles, coupled with intense light, which generated the deadly high-energy particle beam fired from most blasters. In these blasters, the combination of superhot laser-light and a compressed bolt of intense energy particles formed the deadly bolt. "

Platuan4th wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!

Actually, they don't always. The Old Republic uses Plasma based weaponry because ionized plasma is more effective against droids than the photon particle beams generated by other blasters.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blaster#Blaster_mechanics

Note: the Photon particle beams shot by the Blastech E-11 Carbine uses a mixture of laser and compressed gas for its bolt:

"In particle-beam based blasters, like the E-11 used by stormtroopers, a small amount of high-energy gas moved from the Heter valve to the chamber commonly called the XCiter. In the XCiter chamber, the gas was energized by the power pack, then passed into the actuating blaster module, which, when assisted by the components in the barrel, processed the now extremely high-energy gas into a compressed beam of intense energy particles, coupled with intense light, which generated the deadly high-energy particle beam fired from most blasters. In these blasters, the combination of superhot laser-light and a compressed bolt of intense energy particles formed the deadly bolt. "

in either case, the weapon would have, to all intents and purposes, an unlimited range in the vacuum of space.

we can still assume that the GE targeters have a very low range compared to the IoM




there is also the Psyker issue.

Sith/Jedi may have the Force, but(assuming the force=/=psychic powers and the Force works in the IoM galaxy and vice-versa for psychic powers) they are low in number compared to the amount of psykers the IoM has at their disposal.

PBSs, Space Marine Librarians, Grey Knights, Inquisitors...

the sheer number of them would take down the Jedi/Sith even assuming the power of 1 Jedi/Sith>Psyker.



The IoM and Star Wars both have ways of tracking ships using their respective method of Travel, but neither would be able to detect the other(Psykers and Jedi/Sith might be able to predict the approachs)

the GEs Intradictor cruisers would be useless(and this is a massive tactical weapon for them)


Warp Travel doesn't draw a straight line between points, but rather the time to travel is dependent on the turbulance of the warp. it can take longer to travel a few systems away then to get accross the galaxy.

this means that ANY Star Wars planet is at risk of attack. even though it could take months to years for an invasion to arrive the GE wouldn't think that it's core worlds would be vulnerable and then BOOM. soon the GE would be purely on the defensive having to fortify EVERY world it wished to keep. the IoM would have to win by attrition and that is something it is VERY good at doing.


Stormtroopers are clearly > Impierial Guardsmen, but then just about anything is > Impierial Guardsmen. "Fear not the Flashlight, Fear the 10,000 Flashlights"

Lemun Russ companies(hundreds of tanks) and Titan Legions > AT-ATs(they are just armored transports with no shield tech), AT-STs(Armored Sentinals) and Hover Tanks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Plasma" doesnt generate energy, however plasma-based "hot" fusion does.

They definitely dont use M/AM technology, which was the point - the only way to get close to that power output is to use M/AM, there is literaly no way a matter-based system can get close.

They can miniaturise it effectively, yes, which is impressive. BUt the weapon yields are simply and unutterably WRONG by any objective assessment.

Quite simply put: nontechnical writers suck when trying to put physics into stories, and BL admit they make things up to make the story good. So why treat the supposed yields as "true" when you are told the ENTIRE STORY can be entirely untrue?

It's like being told you're reading a work of fiction but then taking it as entirely true that bears make and eat porridge. When every objective fact tells you that is unlikely do you carry on believing it, despite being told it is fiction?

Then how do we account for the physical damage done by the weaponry? Obviously, to us it seems impossible, but there's a potential Imperial 'plasma reactor' technology is based on a type of physics currently unknown to modern science.

Go back 500 years, and I'm willing to bet that most people then would say the things we do now are 'impossible' and couldn't actually happen. However, they obviosuly do. Just because we can't conceptualize a technology that can do what we see being done, doesn't mean it's impossible.....

And as to your example with the porridge, that's true if we're viewing it from out of universe....however, we're viewing it from in universe (or at least.....I am). Therefore, within the universe, it could very well be true that bears make and eat porridge, regardless of what evidence in our universe says.

@Chris

And that is all perfectly true and equal on all sides, but in certain cases is has to be taken equally. Why say SW are poor shots? Could it not be that their counter measures are so good that they have to close to such a short range to ensure a hit? Both sides are equally valid.

With respect to the weapon calcs, please have look at the recent thread by Keezus It throw enough doubts on the stats that your position is no longer as secure as you once thought.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:@Chris

And that is all perfectly true and equal on all sides, but in certain cases is has to be taken equally. Why say SW are poor shots? Could it not be that their counter measures are so good that they have to close to such a short range to ensure a hit? Both sides are equally valid.

With respect to the weapon calcs, please have look at the recent thread by Kezus(sp) It throw enough doubts on the stats that your position is no longer as secure as you once thought.

Cheers

Andrew

i seriously doubt counter measures can account for the range discrepency.



even if there are major counter measures that would simply give both sides equal range. the IoM still have far larger ships with massive amounts of ordinance.


there is also the issue of morale. Civilian morale that is.

the IoM has been waging war for 10,000 years and almost every system has either been the site of war or has supported a war in some way. they are used to the horror and drain of war.

Star Wars had a war that lasted about 10 years. then there was another 30 years of war before the Empire finally collapsed. With the arrival of the Vong the Star wars universe is beginning to come to grips with the possability of endless war. the reality only applies to the out worlds though. the inner core of the GE/new republic hasn't seen war for millenia at least and certaintly outside of recorded history.

i feel that many worlds would simply surrender to the IoM if they so much as sneezed in their direction. many lay down and kowtowed to the Vong without so much as a standoff.

In this case, the difference is that with the Imperium we obviously see that something operating with a level of power far beyond what we can theoretically create today with modern science. Therefore, there has to be a way for them to do it beyond modern science.

However, at no time in SW has there ever been the slightest hint that countermeasures and electronic warfare impact range negatively. All we've seen is ships fighting withing visual range as a standard tactic. At the Battle of Endor 'point blank range' is the ships basically passing withing a kilometer at most of each other. For the Imperium, point blank range is still thousands of kilometers away. (Base to base contact in BFG)

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Plasma" doesnt generate energy, however plasma-based "hot" fusion does.

"Alkaline" doesn't generate enegy to power my flashlight, but alkaline batteries do.

Quite simply put: nontechnical writers suck when trying to put physics into stories, and BL admit they make things up to make the story good. So why treat the supposed yields as "true" when you are told the ENTIRE STORY can be entirely untrue?

Because we see the effects of them in the story. You're reading a story where a ship blows something up, and insisting that the ship doesn't actually blow stuff up, and using as your justification that if a ship powers it's weapons in a way that it's never said to power it's weapons that it couldn't do it. It's just silly.

It's like being told you're reading a work of fiction but then taking it as entirely true that bears make and eat porridge. When every objective fact tells you that is unlikely do you carry on believing it, despite being told it is fiction?

I believe that bears eat porridge in the fictional world that Goldilocks and the Three Bears takes place in. I don't believe that Goldilocks and the Three Bears actually happened.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!

Laser-based weapons don't have infinite range in the real world. Lasers disperse over distance, just much less quickly than a regular flashlight would. Dust and gas (especially in a battle area) disrupts them further, and holding the beam steady enough to target over long distances gets much harder when you hit light-hour or longer distances.

Melissia wrote:

EmpBobo wrote:You could probably assume 40k las weapons have a similar strength compared to the SW blasters.

SW blasters can't disembody limbs, decapitate someone, or blast holes through people.

You obviously didn't see what was left of Greedo...

Don't we need more information on how this conflict would take place? Is the SW galaxy just discovered by the IoM - in M40? I think this is the most reasonable way to say they would interact.

So current events for the IoM -
-Hive fleets
-Eye of Terror
-Waaghs everywhere
-Tau encroaching
-and so on

With all of this happening the IoM would be unlikely to focus a large part of its strength on a new foe. So the battles might be of similar numbers of ships/men.

To speed up the argument, I'll grant that the Empire/Rebuplic wipes out the IoM in a limited engagement. All forces lost for the IoM. Say the Empire lost 75%. Now ask yourself this - how quickly can the IoM replenish their forces? How about the Empire? Say they continue to have battles for 20 years - with the Empire winning everytime. Unless you are saying that the Empire wins without taking any losses - over 20 years the Empire would be crippled for resources/trained men. The IoM keeps chugging along.

Look at the United States Civil War. Lee unarguably was the better general - but Grant just kept running bodies at him. Lee had no answer for the North's vast advantage in numbers and resources.

Look at World War II - the German Invasion of Russia. The Russians believed they had more men that the Germans had bullets. They bled the Germans until winter even though their casualties were enormous. They just had more men and even more importantly, the will to use them.

Somtimes just having more men resources will win you a war - you don't have to be better. This argument completely ignores the actual comparison of ship vs ship, man vs man, Space Marines vs Jedi, Titans vs - oh yeah, SW has not answer for these.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:one thing to take into account is that Star Wars uses Laser based weaponry which in space would have an infinite range!!!!

Laser-based weapons don't have infinite range in the real world. Lasers disperse over distance, just much less quickly than a regular flashlight would. Dust and gas (especially in a battle area) disrupts them further, and holding the beam steady enough to target over long distances gets much harder when you hit light-hour or longer distances.

Lasers may not have an "Infinite" range, but in the term of a star system and space battles, lasers would indeed have a negligable maximum effective distance.


does anyone actually measure range for a railgun on a standard 4x6 game table?

how about a basilisk bombardment?


these weapons do have a maximum range, but it hardly ever comes into play.

even a Warlord Titan's appoc missiles have a max range. 370" to be exact, but when are you ever going to play on a board longer then 370"?

Though IoM has more psykers, IMO, jedi ans sith are stronger or more skilled. In the stories and movies, jedi and sith seem to be able to lift and throw large objects, inhuman reflexes and lightning flies from their fingers. The imperium's psykers can sometimes see the future and can't lift large objects. But they do beat them in the energy-throwing contest since psykers, in artwork at least, can project energy from their hands and face. When your face is a weapon, you are a dangerous foe.