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My idea of what a war betwen 40,000 vs SW
Year 1: Empire forces enter the galaxy from hyper space near the eastern fringe and are instantly encountered by Hive fleet Kraken splinter fleets thrown off corse by the Empire's hyper space jump but drive Empire forces away as the Empire have never encountered anything like this before. Death star battle stations do little against the Tyranid swarm.
Year 2 : Empire forces are driven away from the Tyranids only to encounter the Salamanders space marine chapter. The Imperials destroy the remaning Empire forces and any trace of there existance.

Year 3 : C.I.S forces enter the galaxy after a blind jump near to the Eye of terror , they battle the Imperial Guard causing many casulties to the Organics but fail to deafet Eldar forces relising that they could become a threat.
Year 4 : Republic forces weapon testing go's wrong ending with them blasting into the year 40,000 , they soon combat Tau forces on a large scale , but they soon surrender to the Tau after witinessing a Chaos attack.

My crap idea of what may happen.

BoS - yet you are told that everything in your account could be a lie, intentiional or otherwise. NOTHING you "know" is definitively true.

Which is the point! You're told they make things up. All the time. Yet you choose certain made up elements and, arbitrarily, decide they are true.

Not exactly valid method, is it?

Take this as a fact,using ICS stats SW ships are fairly equal to 40k ships.Using highest cannon sources(movies),40k stomps SW.
Even with ICS SW loses to the 40k because of the Chaos and Necrons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet physics makes the torpedoes improbable, both in yield and in supposed size.

And IoM only ignores physics in certain specific ways. IT still uses Fusion as a power source, vastly inferior to M/AM.

It is also implied that it taps into the warp somehow since plasma reactors don't behave as normal fusion reactors.
We have official yield from 1st edition of Space Hulk(who cares if it's old it meshes very good with vast majority of calcs) which is 560 gigatons for Hellfire torpedoes and it took 300 of those to destroy the hulk.
Then we have teraton calcs from Nemesis,Caves of Ice and Rouge Trader novels.

Grey Templar wrote:i seriously doubt counter measures can account for the range discrepency.

even if there are major counter measures that would simply give both sides equal range. the IoM still have far larger ships with massive amounts of ordinance.

And that argument I have no objection to and is persuasive. What annoys me is this we've got uber weapons and you lose argument. The figures are doubtful.

@Ivan.

As has been pointed out, those calcs have been derived the wrong way. The output has been calculated from a description with no thought as to how it got there. They all assume that the damage has been inflicted with one shot for a start!

Cheers

Andrew

Mr Nobody wrote:Though IoM has more psykers, IMO, jedi ans sith are stronger or more skilled. In the stories and movies, jedi and sith seem to be able to lift and throw large objects, inhuman reflexes and lightning flies from their fingers. The imperium's psykers can sometimes see the future and can't lift large objects. But they do beat them in the energy-throwing contest since psykers, in artwork at least, can project energy from their hands and face. When your face is a weapon, you are a dangerous foe.

Who says Psykers can't lift large objects?


Psychic abilities manifest themselves in different ways.

some are Telikines. they are able to move objects. if they were strong enough they could definitly lift larger objects.

some are Telipaths. they are able to project their thoughts long distances through the warp to another Telipath. these guys enable the IoM to communicate over long distances.

some are Navigators. they are able to look at the currents of the warp without going mad. they steer the ships.

some are Divinators. they are able to tell the future by reading the currents of the etherium.

and finally some can shoot lightining bolts and burn the targets mind to a crisp.


these are listed in order of rarity.

AndrewC wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:i seriously doubt counter measures can account for the range discrepency.

even if there are major counter measures that would simply give both sides equal range. the IoM still have far larger ships with massive amounts of ordinance.

And that argument I have no objection to and is persuasive. What annoys me is this we've got uber weapons and you lose argument. The figures are doubtful.

@Ivan.

As has been pointed out, those calcs have been derived the wrong way. The output has been calculated from a description with no thought as to how it got there. They all assume that the damage has been inflicted with one shot for a start!

Cheers

Andrew

I demand proof.
Those calcs mesh good,Connor calced them very good(but he has some flawed calcs like the Nova Cannon calc).
Besides we have official 560 gigaton calcs and it took 300 of those to destroy the Space Hulk(it still crushes Star Trek like a bug).
In Caves of Ice they cause extinction event level,we also know that Hives can extend kilometres below the ground.
They do Exterminatus vie force which requires gigatons to teratons as a minimun(that kind of firepower destroys all complex life).

Calcs are stupid.

Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.

Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.

Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.

Frazzled wrote:Calcs are stupid.

Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.

Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.

Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.

Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.
You can also use BFG as a source of calcs.Hellfire torpedo is 610 gigatons or 560 gigatons.
Assuming that one combat round in Battlefleet Gothic is a single minute, a single weapons battery has between 600-1200 gigatons of firepower in that same amount of time. A Nova Cannon has 4800 gigatons, spread in a wide radius, with an additional 600 inflicted to the ship it hits.

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Calcs are stupid.

Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.

Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.

Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.

Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.

I don't think the concept of "technical information" exists in the 40K world.

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Calcs are stupid.

Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.

Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.

Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.

Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.

I don't think the concept of "technical information" exists in the 40K world.

The feats matter.
Plasma guns can cremate a human,that requires 400 Megajoules of energy.
Meltagun flashes a dozen cubic metres of ice,that requires 32 gigajoules of energy and that doesn't account for the energy used to move the ice from 0˚C to 100˚C, nor the energy used to move it from its initial temperature to 0˚, now the latent heat of fusion (melting) which will be pretty high also.
Then we have 19 Megathules which is presumably maximum discharge of energy per pulse.

IvanTih wrote:I demand proof.
Those calcs mesh good,Connor calced them very good(but he has some flawed calcs like the Nova Cannon calc).
Besides we have official 560 gigaton calcs and it took 300 of those to destroy the Space Hulk(it still crushes Star Trek like a bug).
In Caves of Ice they cause extinction event level,we also know that Hives can extend kilometres below the ground.
They do Exterminatus vie force which requires gigatons to teratons as a minimun(that kind of firepower destroys all complex life).

Tell you what, you go back and look at the arguments posed to you in the last discussion started by Keezus, round about page 22.

Commissar Streck? pointed out all the flaws from the books, much better than I, which have never been answered.

There are sufficient holes in everyone of the calcs put forward that they can't be taken for granted as being proof.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:

IvanTih wrote:I demand proof.
Those calcs mesh good,Connor calced them very good(but he has some flawed calcs like the Nova Cannon calc).
Besides we have official 560 gigaton calcs and it took 300 of those to destroy the Space Hulk(it still crushes Star Trek like a bug).
In Caves of Ice they cause extinction event level,we also know that Hives can extend kilometres below the ground.
They do Exterminatus vie force which requires gigatons to teratons as a minimun(that kind of firepower destroys all complex life).

Tell you what, you go back and look at the arguments posed to you in the last discussion started by Keezus, round about page 22.

Commissar Streck? pointed out all the flaws from the books, much better than I, which have never been answered.

There are sufficient holes in everyone of the calcs put forward that they can't be taken for granted as being proof.

Cheers

Andrew

Even then you can not ignore Hellfire calc.
Simple task, Andrew: prove it's actually been contradicted. And don't blather about the quote being "edited out n the various editions" - , that isn't sufficient to establish a contradiction.
Provide evidence that the source you refer to is an outlier. Have you done some sort of analysis of a broad range of sources to come to this conclusion ?
Explain why "age" matters in this case?

IvanTih wrote:Even then you can not ignore Hellfire calc.

Ivan, I've never denied the figure from the BFG book, it's the other ones I object to.

All things being equal, all the figures should be in the upper half of the high GT range. The huge spread of figures are whats wrong.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Even then you can not ignore Hellfire calc.

Ivan, I've never denied the figure from the BFG book, it's the other ones I object to.

All things being equal, all the figures should be in the upper half of the high GT range. The huge spread of figures are whats wrong.

Cheers

Andrew

Still commiting Exterminatus via brute force requires at least gigaton to teratons to merely destroy all complex life.I agree that 40k can be inconsistent,but that's nothing like in SW(only ICS saves them from beign crushed by 40k).

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Calcs are stupid.

Comparing one format limited predominantly to novels with mumbo jumbo vs. a universe limited by the need for visuals (SW ship to ship fighting needs coolness) is not a coherent strategy.

Besides if we really do this we go by the first forgeworld manual. It has speeds of IG vehicles and aircrafts in KM, and steel equivalent armor thickness. judging by the the British army with 1980s era anti tank weaponry would turn Landraiders and titans to paste (wehrmacht 1944 wiould do really well too). But lets not.

Thats the problem with these things. There are fanboys on all sides, including those who have tried to make sense out of things that are done purely for the rule of cool.

Not to mention that Forge World is known for downplaying 40k(volume 3 and 8).
Majority of technical information comes from novels because they represent the fluff and universe in correct way.

I don't think the concept of "technical information" exists in the 40K world.

The feats matter.
Plasma guns can cremate a human,that requires 400 Megajoules of energy.
-So can an artillery shell.
-A standard copperhead round effectively uses a plasma jet.
-plasma reach that state via the introduction of energy. yet "plasma engines" power the Iperium. Its nonsensical.
-A megathule is a measure of energy in the real world.
-villagers can plug up the intakes of falcon weaponry with...rocks.
-marines can be killed with arrows.
-an IG with a swiss army knife can killer a terminator if he's lucky.
-a guy with a knife can wound an avatar.
-aircraft in the 40k realm can be brought down by simple artillery.

Making sense of it is fun, but the discontuities are jarring and thats within the 40K milieu itself, not to mention crossover.
How many megajoules to explode an earth size planet in 1/10 of a second?

From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?

AndrewC wrote:
All things being equal, all the figures should be in the upper half of the high GT range. The huge spread of figures are whats wrong.

IvanTih wrote:
Still commiting Exterminatus via brute force requires at least gigaton to teratons to merely destroy all complex life.

And my statement above contradicts that in what way?

IvanTih wrote:I agree that 40k can be inconsistent.

But that very inconsistency should be an indicator that taking a piece of fiction as the fact upon which to base a complex maths calculation might not be the wisest thing to do.

"Just because he's a rocket scientist does not mean he's capable of wiping his arse" was something a physics teacher once told me. The brightest person in the world can make a fundamental mistake. After all, Albert Einstein did.

Cheers Ivan, I'll pick this up later.

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IvanTih wrote:Explain why "age" matters in this case?

Eh?

IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?

no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.

How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)

I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BoS - yet you are told that everything in your account could be a lie, intentiional or otherwise. NOTHING you "know" is definitively true.

Real-life historical sources work like that too. If you're just going to ignore everything from the background, there's not really much point in talking about the 40k background.

And none of this helps with your repeated claim that 40k uses fusion reactors, which you've suddenly backed away from.

Which is the point! You're told they make things up. All the time. Yet you choose certain made up elements and, arbitrarily, decide they are true. Not exactly valid method, is it?

Your method is 'things that they described happening didn't happen because I arbitrarily declared that a plasma reactor is a fusion reactor, but a fusion reactor can't do what they described' which doesn't strike me as at all useful for anything.

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?

no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.

How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)

I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.

Hmm,a low end example.
Because FW is a low-end example of 40k it contradicts everything else,Space Marines act out of character in Taros Campaign and in volume 8 FW ignored ships in the orbit which could do orbital bombardment.
Then we have idiotic Vraks compaign from which nothing was gained.
Then the stupid incident where Inquisitor blows giant Tyranids creature(can't remember which) with a small explosive,but which was thrown ....can't remember the rest I'll need to reread that IA again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AndrewC wrote:[
Cheers Ivan, I'll pick this up later.

Andrew

After thinking about everthing I think that 40k does gigaton to teratons(low teratons),a good middle number,high end could be high teratons to low petatons(ignoring Nova Cannon calc).
Very low end as small you can push it is still megatons.

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?

no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.

How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)

I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.

Hmm,a low end example.

Its still canon and has actual "facts" deny those facts and you deny the underlying claim that any of this can be extrapolated.

Grey Templar wrote:Lasers may not have an "Infinite" range, but in the term of a star system and space battles, lasers would indeed have a negligable maximum effective distance.

No, they're really not. At light second distances they work fine, but when you move into light minute and hour distances, you end up with 10x or more area covered by the beam, which means you get 1/10 the penetration. In realistic applications, this means you'd have to hold the laser on target for 10x as long, which is essentially impossible to do at solar system distances on a moving target. The distance between the sun and earth is 8 light minutes, so we're looking at something much smaller than the whole solar system here.

Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:From the marine was killed with arrow I seems to recall that those were poisoned arrows or something.
Guy can kill an avatar with a knife is a game mechanic?

no. Shadowpoint. Dark eldar going after an avatar with a pointy stick.

How do Valkyries and lightnings achieve orbit when they can't surpass 5x the speed of sound? (FW)
How do drop pods land without turning everything to jelly inside? (last second retrorockets, also pods landing in HH novels into buildings with no harm to crews)

I am sure SW novels are the same way. They are internally inconsistent and comparing different universes should only be on the "pew pew" level.

Hmm,a low end example.

Its still canon and has actual "facts" deny those facts and you deny the underlying claim that any of this can be extrapolated.

FW is not used by majority of posters on debate forums because it contradicts everything else,a fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Lasers may not have an "Infinite" range, but in the term of a star system and space battles, lasers would indeed have a negligable maximum effective distance.

No, they're really not. At light second distances they work fine, but when you move into light minute and hour distances, you end up with 10x or more area covered by the beam, which means you get 1/10 the penetration. In realistic applications, this means you'd have to hold the laser on target for 10x as long, which is essentially impossible to do at solar system distances on a moving target. The distance between the sun and earth is 8 light minutes, so we're looking at something much smaller than the whole solar system here.

Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.

For the last time turbolasers aren't laser,they don't travel at light speed.

Plus, if a lightsaber tried to deflect bullets, you'd just get hit with molten bullets instead.

And only some Imperial weapons batteries are lasers. But technically, a mass driver round or some other physical projectile would have longer range than a laser. Why? Because a laser is gonna dissipate (eventually), while a solid slug? It'll just keep going, and going, and going....




And this video is quite appropriate for this discussion I think.

ChrisWWII wrote:And only some Imperial weapons batteries are lasers. But technically, a mass driver round or some other physical projectile would have longer range than a laser. Why? Because a laser is gonna dissipate (eventually), while a solid slug? It'll just keep going, and going, and going....




And this video is quite appropriate for this discussion I think.

Mass Effect infantry weapons rock.

IvanTih wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.

For the last time turbolasers aren't laser,they don't travel at light speed.

Thanks for agreeing with me?

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Of course, it's obvious that Star Wars doesn't use lasers, as you can watch the 'beam' move from the gun to the target with the human eye, so it's really moot.

For the last time turbolasers aren't laser,they don't travel at light speed.

Thanks for agreeing with me?

I agree with you.
SW calcs are one of the really diverse,ranging from low petatons to measly megatons,but they have cannon policy which states G cannon things or the things from Lucas are the highest cannon.

I like how everyone is so focused on the IoM.

I also like the scenario bloodreaper put forward.

What about the other races in WH40k? what about the 'nids, the tau, the necron, the boyz, chaos, and dark eldar and eldar?

How would they fare against SW?
Personally I don't think the GE or the republic would stand a chance. There are too many forces in WH40k that are vying for dominance, that the entrance of people from the SW universe wouldn't change much. It's like a massive game of free-for-all.

And why has most of this thread debated space warfare? what about fighting on planets? I do recall someone posting information on WH40k vehicles, but perhaps more can be said about them? And what about the SW side of things?

I'm sorry that I'm asking so many questions but I'd really like to hear more on this topic.

I'm not much of a starwars buff, but I do recall that a lot of their weaponary is energy based, so much of their armour is built to combat this, I don't believe that a stormtrooper's armour will provide much resistance to the SM bread and butter that is the bolter

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I like how everyone is so focused on the IoM.

I also like the scenario bloodreaper put forward.

What about the other races in WH40k? what about the 'nids, the tau, the necron, the boyz, chaos, and dark eldar and eldar?

How would they fare against SW?
Personally I don't think the GE or the republic would stand a chance. There are too many forces in WH40k that are vying for dominance, that the entrance of people from the SW universe wouldn't change much. It's like a massive game of free-for-all.

And why has most of this thread debated space warfare? what about fighting on planets? I do recall someone posting information on WH40k vehicles, but perhaps more can be said about them? And what about the SW side of things?

I'm sorry that I'm asking so many questions but I'd really like to hear more on this topic.

I'm not much of a starwars buff, but I do recall that a lot of their weaponary is energy based, so much of their armour is built to combat this, I don't believe that a stormtrooper's armour will provide much resistance to the SM bread and butter that is the bolter

there were several threads devoted to each 40k race, but i will break it down for you.

T'au vs SW: T'au subvert various planets untill open conflict starts. then the GE gets pwned by supierior T'au Tech.

Nids vs SW: Genestealers easily subvert many planets before the Empire knows whats coming. Hive fleets arrive. OMNOM-OMNOM

Orks vs SW: Waaaagh, stomp. orks then loot the Death Star for epic lolz.

Eldar/DE vs SW: Eldar pretty much would ignore the Empire unless they began to interfere with them. DE would sack, rape, and pillage every world and enslave the galaxy. Gungans make funny noises when poked

Chaos vs SW: Blood for the Blood God n'stuff. Skywalker falls the Slanessh and the force dies.




Land Battles definitly go to the IoM as well. the Empire's biggest land vehicle has no shielding and is only armed to the front with 4 Lascannon equvilants. The IG provides numbers for a war of attrition that the GE couldn't survive. Space Marines dominate with Bolters passing through any body armor the GE has developed.

Lemun Russ companies simply bury Stormtroopers and their equipment under barrages of Battlecannon shells. Companies typically have hundreds of Battle Tanks.

and if Leman Russ tanks can't stomp SW then Titans will. Nothing that SW has short of an Orbital bombardment will destroy Warlord titans and it would take hundreds of GE tanks to down a Warhound or Reaver.