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Happyjew wrote:So a Fast vehicle moving 24" is not moving flat out?

yes it is because it is going over 12 inches as the BRB says you do to go flat out (excluding roads).

doesnt this all boil down to 1 simple thing. what qualifies as a penatly and what isnt? i think everyone agrees not being able to do something is a penalty.

if i were to move 13 inches in the movement thats me gone flat out. next in the shooting phase is when that inch is subracted for the purpose of doing things, so i now count as moving 12 so can shoot. start of oppenent turn RPJ is no longer in effect since it affects my penalties so it counts as going 13 thus flat out again

now i wait to be attacked by a swarm of arguments

Don worry - there arent any argumnts to be attacked with, apart from those who favour ignoring the word "penalties" entirely, pretending it doesnt matter, or those who claim that "penalties" is strictly defined - when it isnt - and so doesnt apply to anything that RPJ could possibly effect, ever.

There havent been any actually rules based arguments in this entire thread, just a lot of people who dont think it should work.

Drunkspleen wrote:And here you are proving my point, you claim "All fast vehicles moving over 12 are by definition going flat out" when what the Rulebook ACTUALLY says on the matter is "A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12 [inches] and up to 18 [inches]"

That's EXACTLY the same as claiming "you can not fire any guns if you want to claim flat out" based on the rulebook saying "Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons."

No, it's not. What is flat out? Moving over 12".
It is not not firing. It is not gaining a cover save. Those are both effects of flat out.
A vehicle with a cover save is not always going flat out.
A vehicle that is forbidden to fire is not always going flat out.
A vehicle that moved over 12" - is it going flat out? The answer is always yes.

See how one is a definition and the others are only effects?

rigeld2 wrote:No, it's not. What is flat out? Moving over 12".
It is not not firing. It is not gaining a cover save. Those are both effects of flat out.
A vehicle with a cover save is not always going flat out.
A vehicle that is forbidden to fire is not always going flat out.
A vehicle that moved over 12" - is it going flat out? The answer is always yes.

See how one is a definition and the others are only effects?

They are all effects, none of them are definitions, this is made clear in the rulebook as it is written, moving 12 to 18 inches (or 24 in the case of skimmers) is a result of the vehicle moving flat out.

No. For that to be true you'd have to declare your speed before moving.

I don't declare anything. I move 15". Which speed category have I moved? According to you it wasn't flat out - to have an effect it has to happen before I move.

Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:No, it's not. What is flat out? Moving over 12".
It is not not firing. It is not gaining a cover save. Those are both effects of flat out.
A vehicle with a cover save is not always going flat out.
A vehicle that is forbidden to fire is not always going flat out.
A vehicle that moved over 12" - is it going flat out? The answer is always yes.

See how one is a definition and the others are only effects?

They are all effects, none of them are definitions, this is made clear in the rulebook as it is written, moving 12 to 18 inches (or 24 in the case of skimmers) is a result of the vehicle moving flat out.

Incorrect, again. You dont declare speed categories. If I dont displace at all from my initial position I can still move flat out....

I dont understand where the idea that you dont declare speed catagories comes from.

A vehicle that moves flat out moves 12-18 inches. First you use flat out movement, then you move 12 to 18. After all, if you plan on moving flat out, you can not embark or disembark BEFORE the vehicle moves, and you also are destroyed by dangerous terrain on inches 0-12, despite not yet reaching the distance to be 'flat out.'

You dont start moving, including taking dangerous terrain, and declare your not moving flat out AFTER failing a terrain check at inch 11 of planned 18. You must declare BEFORE your terrain check, BEFORE you have moved over 12 inches, what your speed category will be.

This is also like measuring your movement BEFORE declaring your movement mode (or if you will move at all, in the case of infantry). If you put a tape measure 36 inches down and start premeasuring, you cant then say your dakka jet is only cruising 12. Cruising vehicles do not have a 36 inch move. You measured a 36 inch move, that is your movement mode. Like if you measure 6 inches with infantry to move, see your distance, and declare they are not moving... you measured a movement distance, a distance only gained by using that movement type. What you do with the 6 inches you declared you had by measuring, including not moving, does not change the fact that the unit had a 6 inch move this turn.

DevianID wrote:I dont understand where the idea that you dont declare speed catagories comes from.

Quite simply because the rules doesn't state that you do.

DevianID wrote:I dont understand where the idea that you dont declare speed catagories comes from

Because the rules dont say you do. Please find a rules quote to back up your argument.

How about the terrain rules that I already mentioned!

What, where you get them totally wrong you mean?

For a start the rules *specifically state* you can premeasure your move and then choose to move in another direction, or to not move at all. P11

Then there is nothing stating you *declare* how far you are moving, and certainly not before you actually move.

So Nos, i point to my Dakkajet in terrain. I say nothing to my opponent. In my mind, I want to move 36, but I say nothing. I roll a d6, its a 1. I then tell my opponent that I was just rolling for fun, and the Dakkajet is simply pivoting this turn.

Did I follow the rules? Or was my intent supposed to be communicated (Declared?) to my opponent before rolling that d6 roll, so my opponent knew what it was that was being rolled, and why?

Also Nos, note that I said in my above post that the unit does not have to move the unit after measuring the move, BUT they still used a movement type.

No, you said they used a movement mode, and thus made up rules that dont exist.

If I measure 36" in one direction, and then choose to move 6", I have MOVED 6" and thus have not moved flat out. Despite your assertions to the contrary, no such rule as you posted (or alluded to) actually exists, or else you may have posted a page ref - as asked. Do you have a page ref at all?

You declare what you are rolling for. If you dont want to declare that, go ahead, have fun not getting games. Note that this is not the same as not declaring your intent to move, despite your attempted strawman. Please stop with the logical fallacies.

Q: Does a vehicle that starts it move in difficult terrain
count as having moved that turn if it fails the
Dangerous Terrain test? (p57)
A: Yes.

If you rolled a '1' then you are moving.
If pretend it was a roll for fun then you're cheating.

Nos, you said "You declare what you are rolling for"

What was I rolling for, before my vehicle has moved? Was I rolling for flat out movement, declared before I moved the vehicle, while my tape measure was out to 36 inches? Or can I then move 6 inches over after rolling my dice and say that, despite the 36 inch tape measure earlier AND the terrain roll, I was only going 6?

So, you dont have any page references for your made up rules?

If you can admit that, retract your made up rules and restate your argument, it would be a bit quicker than you pretending you didnt jsut make up some rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Bzzzt, no it had to be FAQ'd, because people didnt believe the rules.

What,. better debate than:

1) The actual rules. The ones where you ignore penalties, but not bonuses?

2) Nothing more is needed, because noone has actually managed to argue against the rules as yet

THere has been "but a penalty to my opponent should be ignored then!" "arguments", but they have been trivially removed from relevance

Nothing is left. No rules based argument has been presented, so its difficult to debate against nonsense.

How about the "it counts as moving 12" rule

Or, you could, I dont know, answer the question.

We have already seen the rules in this topic already saying that a vehicle that moves flat out moves 12-18 inches, more with other rules like supersonic.

We have also seen the rules in this thread saying that a vehicle that moves flat out is destroyed in its own movement phase if it fails a difficult terrain test.

If you measure a supersonic move, which is only gained by vehicles moving flat out, and THEN claim your vehicle is NOT moving flat out and instead moving 6 inches using a different movement classification, why did you measure 36 inches? For fun? For the same reason you rolled a dangerous terrain check and then said it was also for fun?

No, you count as moving your movement type from the before the very first inch you move, thus if your vehicle is in terrain and you roll a 1, you are destroyed even though the vehicle did not move a single inch, IF you were GOING to flat out. This is because your movement mode is decided before you move the model. It is not retroactive; dangerous terrain is also not retroactive.

General - what, the example that doesnt contradict the rule, despite your contention? You do understand the difference between a rule and an example, yes?

Devian - ah, so you DONT have a rules citation? Good to know.

You are allowed to measure 36" in any direction, and then only move 6". Page 11 says this is allowed.

Please find a rules quote for your contention, or concede again.

DevianID wrote:I dont understand where the idea that you dont declare speed catagories comes from.

Because there's no requirement to.

This is also like measuring your movement BEFORE declaring your movement mode (or if you will move at all, in the case of infantry). If you put a tape measure 36 inches down and start premeasuring, you cant then say your dakka jet is only cruising 12. Cruising vehicles do not have a 36 inch move. You measured a 36 inch move, that is your movement mode. Like if you measure 6 inches with infantry to move, see your distance, and declare they are not moving... you measured a movement distance, a distance only gained by using that movement type. What you do with the 6 inches you declared you had by measuring, including not moving, does not change the fact that the unit had a 6 inch move this turn.

Explicitly contradicted by the actual movement rules. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with them before attempting to contribute to a rules discussion about movement.

So you both ignored what I said. What is the movement of a base flat out vehicle? 12+ to 18. You must be clear what movement mode you are using. If you tell your opponent your vehicle is moving flat out, because your movement mode determines not only how far you go but also what kind of terrain does what, then you are committed to that mode.

You can not declare a movement mode, see results of that movement, and change your mind about what movement mode is used. Sure, you can change your physical position, if you are still alive, but you can't change determined results.

Remember infantry moving into cover? They roll for terrain before entering it, and are bound by what they rolled EVEN IF they don't go into terrain.

DevianID wrote:So you both ignored what I said.

No, what you said was just wrong.

What is the movement of a base flat out vehicle? 12+ to 18. You must be clear what movement mode you are using. If you tell your opponent your vehicle is moving flat out, because your movement mode determines not only how far you go but also what kind of terrain does what, then you are committed to that mode.

Rules citation required.

You can not declare a movement mode, see results of that movement, and change your mind about what movement mode is used. Sure, you can change your physical position, if you are still alive, but you can't change determined results.

Rules citation required. Page 11 tells me I can always opt to not move at all.
Yes, if I've rolled for a difficult/dangerous terrain test I will suffer the results - because I've rolled a test.

Remember infantry moving into cover? They roll for terrain before entering it, and are bound by what they rolled EVEN IF they don't go into terrain.

which the Difficult Terrain rules tell us.
What rules do you have supporting your assertion that Flat Out must be declared? Are you ever going to post any?

DevianID wrote:So you both ignored what I said.

Yes, because it is flat out wrong, and have given you (3 times now?) the rules reference that shows you that you are wrong

We then asked for you to support your statements with rules references, which you have singularly failed to do.

DevianID wrote:What is the movement of a base flat out vehicle? 12+ to 18. You must be clear what movement mode you are using.

Citation needed

DevianID wrote:If you tell your opponent your vehicle is moving flat out, because your movement mode determines not only how far you go but also what kind of terrain does what, then you are committed to that mode.

Citation needed. You do not declare what movement "mode" you are *going* to use, only how far you *have* moved. As we've told you Repeatedly. With rules references to prove it. Which you have ignored. Repeatedly. With not a single rules reference to back you up.

DevianID wrote:You can not declare a movement mode, see results of that movement, and change your mind about what movement mode is used. Sure, you can change your physical position, if you are still alive, but you can't change determined results.

You dont declare movement modes for a start, as you have been repeatedly told and required to show otherwise.

DevianID wrote:Remember infantry moving into cover? They roll for terrain before entering it, and are bound by what they rolled EVEN IF they don't go into terrain.

Because the rules for DT tell you this. On the other hand the rules on page 11 state you can choose not to move, or move in a different direction, after measuring your move. Please for the 4th time find a RULE that supports your position, or once again concede.

I think I know where the confusion lies regarding declaring speed.

Per Flat Out, models may not (dis)embark if the vehicle has or is going to move flat out. Additionally, a skimmer that is moving flat out gets immobilised (due to dangerous terrain for example) it immediately gets wrecked.
This brings up the following scenario:
Wave Serpent (only because I play Eldar) is in difficult terrain. I decide I'm going to move 24" (flat-out). As I am in difficult terrain, I must take a dangerous terrain test. I roll a 1. Since the vehicle was going to move flat-out, I would be wrecked, and the unit (if any) would not be able to disembark and thus be destroyed. However, instead, I calmly disembark my unit, because my opponent has no idea that I was going to move flat-out.

Rebuttals?

nosferatu1001 wrote:General - what, the example that doesnt contradict the rule, despite your contention? You do understand the difference between a rule and an example, yes?

Yup! I sure do the example is a clarification of the rule

General_Chaos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:General - what, the example that doesnt contradict the rule, despite your contention? You do understand the difference between a rule and an example, yes?

Yup! I sure do the example is a clarification of the rule

And, as it does not contradict the rule the rule still stands

Or are you saying the rule *does not* tell you to ignore the penalties only? Can you make a real rules argument?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or are you saying the rule *does not* tell you to ignore the penalties only? Can you make a real rules argument?

The rule is obviously hard to follow, which happens sometimes when The Kelly, 6's be upon him, speaks and is the reason this is a 8+ page discussion and has been a topic since the Ork Codex came out. But luckily, since the rule is worded in a confusing manner, The Kelly, 6's be upon him, has given us an example to be our guiding light. He stated that, pretty clearly I might add, "A vehicle could move 13" but it still COUNT AS moving 12". So yes you could move 13" and yes you do not suffer any penalties. But how oh Great Kelly does that work? Well it's simple, you COUNT AS moving 12" and since you count as moving 12" you don't get a cover save. The Kelly is wise and good and does not write codexes for the power-gamers and rules lawyers.

So what is allowing you to ignore the bonuses associated with that extra inch? Because applying it across the board, as you're attempting to do, ignores bonuses and penalties. And, arguably, would make you move the model 12" instead of 13". But I'll leave that last one alone this time.

General_Chaos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or are you saying the rule *does not* tell you to ignore the penalties only? Can you make a real rules argument?

The rule is obviously hard to follow, which happens sometimes when The Kelly, 6's be upon him, speaks and is the reason this is a 8+ page discussion and has been a topic since the Ork Codex came out. But luckily, since the rule is worded in a confusing manner, The Kelly, 6's be upon him, has given us an example to be our guiding light. He stated that, pretty clearly I might add, "A vehicle could move 13" but it still COUNT AS moving 12". So yes you could move 13" and yes you do not suffer any penalties. But how oh Great Kelly does that work? Well it's simple, you COUNT AS moving 12" and since you count as moving 12" you don't get a cover save. The Kelly is wise and good and does not write codexes for the power-gamers and rules lawyers.

Ah, so the answer to my last question was "No, I cannot make a rules argument"

ignoring penalties is NOT a tricky rule. At least not if you havea basic understanding of English.

So no one has a rebuttal to my statement regarding declaring movement speed? OK.

Please note, I'm not switching sides here, the scenario was brought up but it seemed to be ignored. So I re-worded it for clarification. Of course it still seems to be ignored, but, whatever.