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So, I picked up the new WD today to review the new flyers models rules.

One quick question...

Say I have a DakkaJet with Red Paint Job (RPJ)....

Could I move 13", then fire everything AND recieve a 4+ skimmer coversave? Isn't that ?

Unless FAQ'ed, yes you can.

You mean the Flat-out save?
You're still going cruising-speed at 13", so no.
The 4+ save is based on speed group, not actual distance traveled.

grendel083 wrote:You mean the Flat-out save?
You're still going cruising-speed at 13", so no.
The 4+ save is based on speed group, not actual distance traveled.

Thanks... do you know what page in the BRB that the skimmer cover save is based on group speed and not distance? I can't find it...

Page 71
You need to move Flat Out to get it.
Cruising speed +1" RPJ does not make your vehicle count as Flat out, it's still cruising speed. You can't be moving Flat Out and Cruising at the same time.
Actual distance does effect getting hit in combat, but that's a different matter.

Are you forgetting the wording of RPJ Grendel?

RPJ states "Ork vehicles with red paint job add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch."

Pg 70 of BRB states "A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18"."

Note that RPJ says penalties. In the case of the Bommer, it can move 13" and claim to be going flat out as previously stated as it has moved more than 12", but through RPJ, it can claim to be moving crusing speed, allowing it to use Aerial Assault.

But in order to qualify as moving flat out, it must sacrifice the firing of any weapons. So either move 13" and fire everything, or move 13" and gain cover. Try and remember not every rule is there to be broken, sometimes you have to decide on a course of action...

Yup, there was the mental slip I was expecting while looking at the BRB

The "Penalty" would be going into a higher movement category and not being able to shoot. True there is an advantage, but the save does require flatout, not just 13".

grendel083 wrote:The "Penalty" would be going into a higher movement category and not being able to shoot. True there is an advantage, but the save does require flatout, not just 13".

this does seem to be the case from what i can see?

What would be the point in taking a red paint job then?

Generally, as things stand, very little reason to take RPJ on the planes, with the potential exception of the blitza bomma.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:But in order to qualify as moving flat out, it must sacrifice the firing of any weapons. So either move 13" and fire everything, or move 13" and gain cover. Try and remember not every rule is there to be broken, sometimes you have to decide on a course of action...

Somebody needs to give you a cookie. This was the most well spoken and accurate comment in the entire thread.

Heres a question for you then although it serves little real meaning to the rules in this instance but, can a vehicle with RPJ move 1", count as remaining stationary, and gain the benefit of models needing a 4+ to hit in melee on account of the more specific wording for that rule of:

"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help!"

Drunkspleen wrote:Heres a question for you then although it serves little real meaning to the rules in this instance but, can a vehicle with RPJ move 1", count as remaining stationary, and gain the benefit of models needing a 4+ to hit in melee on account of the more specific wording for that rule of:

"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help!"

No you can not "move 1", count as remaining stationary" because RPJ says you move an additional inch when moving (Or something close to that).

so if you move 1 Inch you can move an additional inch.

If you do not move you can not move an additional inch.

DeathReaper wrote:No you can not "move 1", count as remaining stationary" because RPJ says you move an additional inch when moving (Or something close to that).

so if you move 1 Inch you can move an additional inch.

If you do not move you can not move an additional inch.

Ah okay, not familiar enough with the exact wording of that rule.

Technically speaking you don't have to move at all and only need to say you moved flat out to receive a cover-save. Unlike turbo-boost which states you need to be 18" away from your starting position to gain a cover save, moving flat out doesn't have the some requirements.

General_Chaos wrote:Technically speaking you don't have to move at all and only need to say you moved flat out to receive a cover-save. Unlike turbo-boost which states you need to be 18" away from your starting position to gain a cover save, moving flat out doesn't have the some requirements.

True. But then you can't shoot, and you'd be auto-hit in combat.

Yep but if you are not worried about being assaulted then it is a non issue.

Personally a few of the guys at my local GW store and I think of it as a house rule. If your opponent says you can, then you can, and vice versa. I would just take RPJ for the fact that you can move 37"!!!

You get the coversave, I believe.

If you move 13", then you get to ignore the penalty for moving Flat Out, meaning you fire as if moving at cruising speed

As you have actually moved flat out, you dont ignore the bonus of doing so - the 4+ cover save - because RPJ does not state you ignore the extra inch for *everytyhing* - just the negatives.

I imagine this is in mind for a change to FO in 6th, especially given the pinning/+1BS rule for stormtalons has no functional negative (Fast skimmer -> skimmer that cannot move) in 5th edition

As you have actually moved flat out, you dont ignore the bonus of doing so - the 4+ cover save - because RPJ does not state you ignore the extra inch for *everytyhing* - just the negatives.

Now you see... this is what I was thinking...

Anyhoo, it's ambiguous enough that I'll clear it with TO/opponent before playing.

To few rules quote here, as usual...

Aerial Assault: If the model moved at cruising speed it can fire all of its weapons. (Dakka Jet data sheet)

Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase, but do not incur penalties for the extra inch." (Codex: Orks and White Dwarf - exact same wording)

A vehicle that traves more than 6" and up to 12" is moving at cruising speed. (BRB pg. 57)

A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18" (BRB pg. 70)

Fast vehicles moving flat out may fire no weapons (BRB pg. 70)

A skimmer that is not immobilized and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured. (BRB pg. 71)

That out of the way (and hopefully all those posts spouting nonsense in direct contradiction to those rules), I think nos is right.

A dakka jet (or any other ork plane) moving 13" flat-out is nothing but a vehicle moving flat out. So you get a 4+ cover save and are hit on 6s(irrelevant). RPJ enables the plane to count as moving 12" to ignore penalties. If you count as moving 12", you also count as moving at cruising speed. If you try to ignore something that's not a penalty (like getting a 4+ cover save), you are breaking the rules.

Also note that RPJ is not optional, so you can not move 1" or less, making the whole "I'm stationary!" argument void. Feel free to drive around in circles though.

Hmmm.... I used to do exactly what the OP states but with Buggies.... i.e. moved 13", fired rokkits, claimed cover in my opponents next shooting phase. Made buggies immense but stopped doing it as I mixed up the turbo boost rule with the flat out rule (I thought you had to move 18" to claim the cover).

From the above I gather that this was a legal move.... why don't people do it more often, unless I just havn't seen it, it gives buggies a cover save of 4+ every opponents shooting phase for 5 points (as long as you keep it moving 13").

Cheers,

David.

EDIT: oh, only skimmers get obscured?... knew it was to good to be true

Woah...

Jidmah... you get the interweb cookie!

That's awesome!

I agree with Jidmah, to further support this:

Flat out is not a declared move. It is a distance covered. (BRB. 70)

The only declared action in moving is Tank Shock. (BRB. 68) It gives you a set list of conditions and steps as to what will happen and what needs to be done.

You do not need to declare you are moving flat out, you simply move over 12" and you are going flat out. The rules for Red Paint Job allow this inch to be ignored for negative effects. (sources as above)

Therefore yes, you can move 13" fire all of your guns (Which is a broken rule which is overridden by the Arial Assault special rule) and claim a 4+ obscured / cover save.

Blood Lord Soldado wrote:

Therefore yes, you can move 13" fire all of your guns (Which is a broken rule which if overridden by war gear) and claim a 4+ obscured / cover save.

Hahah, the only thing that makes those jets worth the points is *IF* they get to move 13", fire everything and get a 4+ cover save. Orks have been moving 7", shooting and being harder to hit in CC for years.

This actually makes a huge difference for the few of us who want 3 dakkajets and may actually get them on a tabletop before 6th edition hits.

I am with you on this brother.

I got 2 Pre Ordered and the air brush is ready to rock!!

The save is granted by the speed group not by actual distance traveled

Daemonhammer wrote:The save is granted by the speed group not by actual distance traveled

Can you cite any sources? Or where the term speed group comes from?