Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Milisim wrote:If 40k goes the way of WHFB, I will be buying a 3rd 40K ARMY!


Randomness to me = fun.

I obviously do not know what Im talking about since Ive only been playing since RT days and my opinion is disregarded as I believe comp players in 40k ruin the game... Adding more Randomness to the game will hopefully IMO (And from what I can tell GW's aswell) bring about a more beer and chips atmosphere to 40k and move away from the comp days.

I was under the impression I would most likely sell my 40k stuff and move on to infinity, FoW and WHFB as my main games but with the leaks Im seeing here.... I might stick around for a bit.

Yeah. I agree with you. You do not know what you are talking about. The competitive scene has nothing to do with you if you do not want it to. Do not go to tournaments. Simple as that. See how hard that was? If you and your buddies want to have a "beer and chips" atmosphere and throw dice, that is fine. A competitive and comprehensive rule set still allows for this while also fostering a competitive environment. Ever played M:tG? For every competitive player there are a hundred "kitchen table" players. And yet, the competitive nature of M:tG does not inhibit them in anyway. They still get to sling their overpriced creatures and spells at each other and the competitive scene gets to do what they love to do. Ya' know. Competing. Which you cannot do if the rules only allow for a very small measure of play skill to be involved.

So little less than 2 weeks....

Anyone want to speculate the significance/origin on the "roar" heard at the :10 mark?

Kurce wrote:

Milisim wrote:If 40k goes the way of WHFB, I will be buying a 3rd 40K ARMY!


Randomness to me = fun.

I obviously do not know what Im talking about since Ive only been playing since RT days and my opinion is disregarded as I believe comp players in 40k ruin the game... Adding more Randomness to the game will hopefully IMO (And from what I can tell GW's aswell) bring about a more beer and chips atmosphere to 40k and move away from the comp days.

I was under the impression I would most likely sell my 40k stuff and move on to infinity, FoW and WHFB as my main games but with the leaks Im seeing here.... I might stick around for a bit.

Yeah. I agree with you. You do not know what you are talking about. The competitive scene has nothing to do with you if you do not want it to. Do not go to tournaments. Simple as that. See how hard that was? If you and your buddies want to have a "beer and chips" atmosphere and throw dice, that is fine. A competitive and comprehensive rule set still allows for this while also fostering a competitive environment. Ever played M:tG? For every competitive player there are a hundred "kitchen table" players. And yet, the competitive nature of M:tG does not inhibit them in anyway. They still get to sling their overpriced creatures and spells at each other and the competitive scene gets to do what they love to do. Ya' know. Competing. Which you cannot do if the rules only allow for a very small measure of play skill to be involved.

To me the game currently is rife with randomness, since it uses D6's to determine everything - move through cover, hitting stuff, wounding stuff, killing vehicle charts, etc etc. Everything is a dice roll. So how do we compete in 5th edition? Redundancy to mitigate for bad luck. 6th will be more of the same in competitive lists - If 1 is good, 3 is better. Taking multiples or units that dump boatloads of dice will still be the ticket to make sure your battle plan goes forward.

Amidst all these random snippets folks are dooming and glooming over there are other rumors that aid competitive players. Weight of dice will matter - if you can kill a rhino with 3 glancing hits suddenly a unit of devastators can start reliably killing transports each shooting phase, rather than hoping for a 5 or 6 to pop up. I just wish i had the damn book in my hands, i want to get into 6th as soon as possible.

Milisim wrote:I obviously do not know what Im talking about since Ive only been playing since RT days and my opinion is disregarded as I believe comp players in 40k ruin the game... Adding more Randomness to the game will hopefully IMO (And from what I can tell GW's aswell) bring about a more beer and chips atmosphere to 40k and move away from the comp days.

Much as I would agree that it would be an improvement for "friendly" 40k to move away from the "tournament" mentality, I fail to see how more randomness will achieve that. (It would be fair to point out that even Rogue Trader, with its random equipment and psychic powers tables, didn't randomise movement distances.) Moreover, no amount of added randomness will fix Warhammer 40,000's real problem: lack of balance between and within army lists. Tournament lists will have to change, of course, but until those fundamental imbalances are corrected, spam-filled netlists will still dominate (and spoil) the game; they'll just become focussed around managing and minimising those random chances (and, of course, around exploiting all the other unasked-for and unnecessary changes these rumours suggest).

DaNewBoy wrote:
So little less than 2 weeks....

Anyone want to speculate the significance/origin on the "roar" heard at the :10 mark?

Did you just post the same video we've been talking about for days now?

Yeah. I agree with you. You do not know what you are talking about. The competitive scene has nothing to do with you if you do not want it to. Do not go to tournaments. Simple as that. See how hard that was? If you and your buddies want to have a "beer and chips" atmosphere and throw dice, that is fine. A competitive and comprehensive rule set still allows for this while also fostering a competitive environment. Ever played M:tG? For every competitive player there are a hundred "kitchen table" players. And yet, the competitive nature of M:tG does not inhibit them in anyway. They still get to sling their overpriced creatures and spells at each other and the competitive scene gets to do what they love to do. Ya' know. Competing. Which you cannot do if the rules only allow for a very small measure of play skill to be involved.

This is pretty much the perfect reply to the "anti-competitive" crowd. I don't understand how people can invest time and money into a hobby or something they care about, yet not get competitive about it. I don't have to win, but I like a challenge and balanced rules. Competition is fun. Even though I don't understand the "fluff bunny, let's throw dice" attitude, I don't wish those players gone altogether. At the end of the day, you might not like how someone plays the game, but you should respect how others play it. No one forces non-competitive people to tourneys just like no one forces me to intentionally take bad units. A game that can accommodate both is better for everyone. Remember people, this is a niche hobby. Losing half a player base will kill it.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Kurce wrote:

Milisim wrote:If 40k goes the way of WHFB, I will be buying a 3rd 40K ARMY!


Randomness to me = fun.

I obviously do not know what Im talking about since Ive only been playing since RT days and my opinion is disregarded as I believe comp players in 40k ruin the game... Adding more Randomness to the game will hopefully IMO (And from what I can tell GW's aswell) bring about a more beer and chips atmosphere to 40k and move away from the comp days.

I was under the impression I would most likely sell my 40k stuff and move on to infinity, FoW and WHFB as my main games but with the leaks Im seeing here.... I might stick around for a bit.

Yeah. I agree with you. You do not know what you are talking about. The competitive scene has nothing to do with you if you do not want it to. Do not go to tournaments. Simple as that. See how hard that was? If you and your buddies want to have a "beer and chips" atmosphere and throw dice, that is fine. A competitive and comprehensive rule set still allows for this while also fostering a competitive environment. Ever played M:tG? For every competitive player there are a hundred "kitchen table" players. And yet, the competitive nature of M:tG does not inhibit them in anyway. They still get to sling their overpriced creatures and spells at each other and the competitive scene gets to do what they love to do. Ya' know. Competing. Which you cannot do if the rules only allow for a very small measure of play skill to be involved.

To me the game currently is rife with randomness, since it uses D6's to determine everything - move through cover, hitting stuff, wounding stuff, killing vehicle charts, etc etc. Everything is a dice roll. So how do we compete in 5th edition? Redundancy to mitigate for bad luck. 6th will be more of the same in competitive lists - If 1 is good, 3 is better. Taking multiples or units that dump boatloads of dice will still be the ticket to make sure your battle plan goes forward.

Amidst all these random snippets folks are dooming and glooming over there are other rumors that aid competitive players. Weight of dice will matter - if you can kill a rhino with 3 glancing hits suddenly a unit of devastators can start reliably killing transports each shooting phase, rather than hoping for a 5 or 6 to pop up. I just wish i had the damn book in my hands, i want to get into 6th as soon as possible.

Obviously, some things need to be random or the game would be very static and become repetitive. Poker is fun for a reason. Sure, you can get blown out when you think you have it on lock but that is the random aspect of the game. Same thing for M:tG. I do not see why table top gaming has to be any different. Look at Warmachine. The only random parts of that game are attack rolls and damage rolls. And even that can be mitigated due to boosting in that game. However, 40K and WHFB? It just keeps getting more and more random. Random movement is a very bad idea. Having very slow units charge farther than very fast units is absolutely ridiculous and really kills the skill and flavor of the game.

Kurce wrote:
Obviously, some things need to be random or the game would be very static and become repetitive. Poker is fun for a reason. Sure, you can get blown out when you think you have it on lock but that is the random aspect of the game. Same thing for M:tG. I do not see why table top gaming has to be any different. Look at Warmachine. The only random parts of that game are attack rolls and damage rolls. And even that can be mitigated due to boosting in that game. However, 40K and WHFB? It just keeps getting more and more random. Random movement is a very bad idea. Having very slow units charge farther than very fast units is absolutely ridiculous and really kills the skill and flavor of the game.

That point I agree with - so far though everything i've seen doesn't make me think that slow and purposeful nurglings will be assaulting further/faster than jetbike reavers. I know in Fantasy a cavalry unit can roll 1,1 and fail a charge, while a dwarf thunderer unit can roll 6,6 and charge 1/4 across the board - but both of those instances are extremes of the bell curve. A game system is set up and built to run on averages, so going by that a move stat + d6 charge will equate to faster charging regardless of unit, compared to now.

hey Ho. Doesn't matter what i am scared ofm i will still be shelling out for the new book when it comes out....might try and pre-order it too.

i'm actuallyl ooking forward to using a full sized boko again rather than the little AoBR booklet.

As much fun as this discussion is... Maybe take the randomness bit over to another thread?

Agreed. Whitehat! more rumors! lol

The comp guys want tighter rules the rec players want funner(is that a word) rules....

As a rec player current 5E is aboring and sterile environment, thus I am glad to see some of the 8E whfb coming to 6E 40k.. also I am not one of the people who pine for the 7E days of WHFB either. (Even though 8E magic is OP)


Random events and other mechanics allow for a more interesting game. Like someone said though... 50% of the hobby is Rec vs Comp. So balancing the two is hard to do.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:And if I wanted to study pie charts and statistical breakdowns I could take a math course at my local community college.

Any quality changes that make the game less predictable and less open to Mathhammer are a good thing as far as I'm concerned

And If I wanted to play a decision-making takes a back seat to randomness, I'd be at a craps table in Atlantic City.

See how easy it is to contribute nothing but a glib putdown?

At least craps is a game.

I think what he means is that it now becomes a game where all people can play and you don't need to be a genius with superior intellect to win a game (hyperbole). A lot of players don't want to make "super lists" and also new players may become discouraged if they keep get a pounding at the start when they are trying to learn the rules. Some people just want to turn up and have a bit of fun irregardless and don't take the rules too seriously.

Not defending the guy or his viewpoint but there are those who don't want to play the WAACs style of gaming.

As had been said so many time before a war-game that only uses each player skill is chess. On the topic of randomness WAR is random. "Is that building safe to cross" "Is my back up going to make it on time" Without the random parts of this game you might as well just line up your army's and shoot gumdrops at the other side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On this topic Im willing to try whatever they bring in 6th.

tetrisphreak wrote:Agreed. Whitehat! more rumors! lol

What the hell is up with your sig...

As for the rumors of 6th, I do not mind Psychic cards all that much. I am unsure of how they would determine power dice, though. And what they would do with Dark Eldar since there they do not have psykers. Is that quote earlier in this thread actually from GW? It looked like it. Very interested in how this would work...

DarthOvious wrote: A lot of players don't want to make "super lists" and also new players may become discouraged if they keep get a pounding at the start when they are trying to learn the rules. Some people just want to turn up and have a bit of fun irregardless and don't take the rules too seriously.

Not defending the guy or his viewpoint but there are those who don't want to play the WAACs style of gaming.

A lot of players don't want to make 'fluffy lists' and also new players may become discouraged if they have every game handed to them at the start when they are tring to learn the rules. Some people just want to turn up and have a bit of challenge and think that rules are an important part of the game.

Not defending the guy or his viewpoint but there are those who don't want to play the LAACs style of gaming.

Now that we got this stuff out of the way, can we get back on topic?

Orkz are not even in there, and we are still 4th edition. They skipped us! No codex, no plastic meganobz, no plastic anything! We are being skipped again!

Kurce wrote:

Milisim wrote:If 40k goes the way of WHFB, I will be buying a 3rd 40K ARMY!


Randomness to me = fun.

I obviously do not know what Im talking about since Ive only been playing since RT days and my opinion is disregarded as I believe comp players in 40k ruin the game... Adding more Randomness to the game will hopefully IMO (And from what I can tell GW's aswell) bring about a more beer and chips atmosphere to 40k and move away from the comp days.

I was under the impression I would most likely sell my 40k stuff and move on to infinity, FoW and WHFB as my main games but with the leaks Im seeing here.... I might stick around for a bit.

Yeah. I agree with you. You do not know what you are talking about. The competitive scene has nothing to do with you if you do not want it to. Do not go to tournaments. Simple as that. See how hard that was? If you and your buddies want to have a "beer and chips" atmosphere and throw dice, that is fine. A competitive and comprehensive rule set still allows for this while also fostering a competitive environment. Ever played M:tG? For every competitive player there are a hundred "kitchen table" players. And yet, the competitive nature of M:tG does not inhibit them in anyway. They still get to sling their overpriced creatures and spells at each other and the competitive scene gets to do what they love to do. Ya' know. Competing. Which you cannot do if the rules only allow for a very small measure of play skill to be involved.

The problem is that you get those competetive players everywhere, not just at the tournies. Well GW have now pulled out of the competetive circuit so they don't need to service that part. I'm not against tournies or competetiveness but there are other players out there who just don't like it and it really shows your bitterness at the sounds of this by insulting people with lines like "You do not know what you're talking about". I think you've just shown here that you are one of those WAAC players with that kind of attitude just because he has a different opinion from you.

Don’t understand why peoples complain about the Randomness factor in the wargaming.
This is where you have to use your brain more often, calculate what the chances prior to taking the actions. The WFB 8th edition is just pure essence of this. If you want to take risk you will pay for it if you fail, like in everywhere where the term of Strategy is used - business, market stock ect.

Imho more randomness creates more competitive games; as you have to learn not to take risky rolls with 5% chances of succeed but use your brain and strategy to increase the odds to acceptable level… most peoples losing the games because they taking to high risks and then complain about their dice rolls…

Like my last game vs Tryanids where my opponent complained that he could not destroy my Ark with his Tfex in one shot… well 50% to hit 50% to glanc, 4+cover save = to 17,5% … good luck .


Conclusion, imho randomness is good, teach you how to act safely and select the target based on odds not whish thinking.

Da Kommizzar wrote:Orkz are not even in there, and we are still 4th edition. They skipped us! No codex, no plastic meganobz, no plastic anything! We are being skipped again!

Maybe you can get a cool WD codex, like us SoB players did?

Da Kommizzar wrote:Orkz are not even in there, and we are still 4th edition. They skipped us! No codex, no plastic meganobz, no plastic anything! We are being skipped again!

Considering how much plastic they've gotten, including the brand new flyer, I don't think Orks were skipped whatsoever! Their codex has aged really well also. I don't see them getting a new codex too soon, but they'll manage without it for some time.

Da Kommizzar wrote:Orkz are not even in there, and we are still 4th edition. They skipped us! No codex, no plastic meganobz, no plastic anything! We are being skipped again!

There's been plenty of rumors of orks getting their 'finish out the range' wave. Be patient.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

See how easy it is to contribute nothing but a glib putdown?

Yes. You do seem to have a knack for it...


I think a little "fog of war" and murphy's law are good things for the game. You don't.

If it ends up being too much for you you can always bow out gracefully and go play warmahordes...

pretre wrote:

DarthOvious wrote: A lot of players don't want to make "super lists" and also new players may become discouraged if they keep get a pounding at the start when they are trying to learn the rules. Some people just want to turn up and have a bit of fun irregardless and don't take the rules too seriously.

Not defending the guy or his viewpoint but there are those who don't want to play the WAACs style of gaming.

A lot of players don't want to make 'fluffy lists' and also new players may become discouraged if they have every game handed to them at the start when they are tring to learn the rules. Some people just want to turn up and have a bit of challenge and think that rules are an important part of the game.

Not defending the guy or his viewpoint but there are those who don't want to play the LAACs style of gaming.

Now that we got this stuff out of the way, can we get back on topic?

I didn't deny what you said, I was just pointing that others don't see things like that when they were trying to put forth that that was the case.

Yes, lets get back on topic. I haven't read your message until I posted a reply to the others so please forgive the messages I have posted before this one.

god.ra wrote:Imho more randomness creates more competitive games

I have no idea where this comes from. The only thing variance adds is the possibility of a worse player beating the better player through luck. Any commercial game needs it in some amount, because bad players constitute the majority of it's customer base, and you don't want a single guy who "cracked the system" scaring everyone off. That's it. Nothing more.

So it may be good for GW. It might even be good for the community as a whole*. But let's not pretend that adding an extra d6 roll will make 40k more competitive. Quite the opposite.

*unless of course people do the sensible thing and return to minimaxing to reduce variance as much as possible. That'll be fun.

Kurce wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Agreed. Whitehat! more rumors! lol

What the hell is up with your sig...

You made me look, darn it . . . but I agree.


People that honestly use the phrase WAAC are the bane of any system.
Sometimes if they are referring to themselves, but always if it is about someone else.

Very little about these rules make me want to run out and but the book though.
Maybe once I have a chance to actually read some of it.

Editing to add:
This is somewhat odd for me, as I actually enjoy reading rule books and things of that nature.
/shrug

kirsanth wrote:

Kurce wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Agreed. Whitehat! more rumors! lol

What the hell is up with your sig...

You made me look, darn it . . . but I agree.

Umm, it's a joke that I find funny just about every time i read it. That's all.

Here's something to think about with random charge ranges-

In WFB, you declare a charge before shooting or moving, then you roll for distance. If you make it, you make it, and charge in. If you don't make it, however, you still move up a bit- possibly a whole 6" in WFB, maybe 6 or maybe a random distance in 6th.

What this does, is makes counter-charges an actual risk to be taken when attacking an enemy. Yeah, if my Ork boyz manage that 11" charge on your Guard Blob, they'll be able to take out a significant number, and maybe survive, maybe wipe out your blob without taking too many casualties back. However, if they fail, well, guess what. They're now in range to be charged themselves- and will be fighting at Init 2, Str 3, with only 2 or 3 attacks each, instead of 3 or 4.

There's the potentials for longer charges (though not really, as you'll generally be replacing regular movement with the Charge), counterbalanced by the potential of being counter-charged. Also, it makes pistol range make more sense, as 12" is at the very edge of the charge possibility- do you shoot your pistols at those 2 remaining Tac marines, where you're definitely in range, and maybe not kill them? Or do you charge, and potentially not reach them, but definitely take them out if you make it.

His Master's Voice wrote:
I have no idea where this comes from. The only thing variance adds is the possibility of a worse player beating the better player through luck. Any commercial game needs it in some amount, because bad players constitute the majority of it's customer base, and you don't want a single guy who "cracked the system" scaring everyone off. That's it. Nothing more.

So you don't think that having a contingency plan in case your 2D6" charge move fails requires more skill than always knowing exactly what's going to happen?

lord_blackfang wrote:So you don't think that having a contingency plan in case your 2D6" charge move fails requires more skill than always knowing exactly what's going to happen?

No, it requires a contingency plan.