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kirsanth wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:So you don't think that having a contingency plan in case your 2D6" charge move fails requires more skill than always knowing exactly what's going to happen?

No, it requires a contingency plan.

Playing chess doesn't require skill, it just requires you to be good at chess...

You are trying to say that planning ahead is better than. . .planning ahead?

lord_blackfang wrote: Playing chess doesn't require skill, it just requires you to be good at chess...

...that would be a skill

wyomingfox wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote: Playing chess doesn't require skill, it just requires you to be good at chess...

...that would be a skill

Sig'd.

There is a HUGE difference between WFB charges and simple "Random charge distance". In WFB you have a set MINIMUM charge range which is movement +2" and thus I think we need some major clarifications on if charging in 6th is purely random (Which makes no damn sense) or if its base movement + a roll. Also there seems to be conflicting rumors with one saying how you double your movement when you charge, which seems in direct contention with "random charges"

tetrisphreak wrote:Umm, it's a joke that I find funny just about every time i read it. That's all.

Made me turn back on signatures so I could see what it was. Disappointed. :(

I have no idea where this comes from. The only thing variance adds is the possibility of a worse player beating the better player through luck. Any commercial game needs it in some amount, because bad players constitute the majority of it's customer base, and you don't want a single guy who "cracked the system" scaring everyone off. That's it. Nothing more.

Perfectly said. Variance exists in games so that weak players get to win a couple games or hands in the short term but are still always losers in the long term. No amount of randomness will make a dumb guy smart, he just gets lucky every now and then. Therefore randomness brings weak players into the scene for good players to beat, but too much randomness kills the whole game.

Yeah. I agree with you. You do not know what you are talking about. The competitive scene has nothing to do with you if you do not want it to. Do not go to tournaments. Simple as that. See how hard that was? If you and your buddies want to have a "beer and chips" atmosphere and throw dice, that is fine. A competitive and comprehensive rule set still allows for this while also fostering a competitive environment. Ever played M:tG? For every competitive player there are a hundred "kitchen table" players. And yet, the competitive nature of M:tG does not inhibit them in anyway. They still get to sling their overpriced creatures and spells at each other and the competitive scene gets to do what they love to do. Ya' know. Competing. Which you cannot do if the rules only allow for a very small measure of play skill to be involved.

Yours is a perfect reply as well. The guys who openly say they refuse to compete and want to actively make stupid decisions and field ineffective units and get upset if their opponent isn't fielding ineffective units and making stupid decisions while drunk could simply do that with their friends like they always have. The thing is they don't want to. They want to play against strangers they've never met at the local store or at an open gaming club, and want the entire world and the game itself to change so that there's no chance whatsoever of ever meeting a person who doesn't fit the criteria of a drunk pretzel eating strategically incompetent toy soldier general with awful unit choices. It's just sad.

Kirasu wrote:There is a HUGE difference between WFB charges and simple "Random charge distance". In WFB you have a set MINIMUM charge range which is movement +2" and thus I think we need some major clarifications on if charging in 6th is purely random (Which makes no damn sense) or if its base movement + a roll. Also there seems to be conflicting rumors with one saying how you double your movement when you charge, which seems in direct contention with "random charges"

It's not purely random in any case, it's a probability and assessing your chances of success and managing the risks is a skill, no matter what everyone here thinks. It's one of the core aspects of Hordes and that game is lauded as very balanced and tactical.

lord_blackfang wrote:It's not purely random in any case, it's a probability and assessing your chances of success and managing the risks is a skill, no matter what everyone here thinks. It's one of the core aspects of Hordes and that game is lauded as very balanced and tactical.

I do not think anyone actually disagrees with that. The issue is that you are saying it takes more skill to use one set of skills than it takes to use another.

Currently you cannot know if your charge is valid because you cannot measure.
There is ALREADY a need for contingency plans.

Changing the game to one that involves randomness instead of. . .skill is not requiring more skill.

Therion wrote:

I have no idea where this comes from. The only thing variance adds is the possibility of a worse player beating the better player through luck. Any commercial game needs it in some amount, because bad players constitute the majority of it's customer base, and you don't want a single guy who "cracked the system" scaring everyone off. That's it. Nothing more.

Perfectly said. Variance exists in games so that weak players get to win a couple games or hands in the short term but are still always losers in the long term. No amount of randomness will make a dumb guy smart, he just gets lucky every now and then. Therefore randomness brings weak players into the scene for good players to beat, but too much randomness kills the whole game.

Yeah. I agree with you. You do not know what you are talking about. The competitive scene has nothing to do with you if you do not want it to. Do not go to tournaments. Simple as that. See how hard that was? If you and your buddies want to have a "beer and chips" atmosphere and throw dice, that is fine. A competitive and comprehensive rule set still allows for this while also fostering a competitive environment. Ever played M:tG? For every competitive player there are a hundred "kitchen table" players. And yet, the competitive nature of M:tG does not inhibit them in anyway. They still get to sling their overpriced creatures and spells at each other and the competitive scene gets to do what they love to do. Ya' know. Competing. Which you cannot do if the rules only allow for a very small measure of play skill to be involved.

Yours is a perfect reply as well. The guys who openly say they refuse to compete and want to actively make stupid decisions and field ineffective units and get upset if their opponent isn't fielding ineffective units and making stupid decisions while drunk could simply do that with their friends like they always have. The thing is they don't want to. They want to play against strangers they've never met at the local store or at an open gaming club, and want the entire world and the game itself to change so that there's no chance whatsoever of ever meeting a person who doesn't fit the criteria of a drunk pretzel eating strategically incompetent toy soldier general with awful unit choices. It's just sad.

And this is why I play EDH (Commander) M:TG it is kitchen table gaming at the finest.

That said, everyone who plays this hobby plays for their own reasons, at my FLGS we have both sides, some come to our Wednesday Night competition and some come on thrusday to just have fun. It is how it works.

kirsanth wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:It's not purely random in any case, it's a probability and assessing your chances of success and managing the risks is a skill, no matter what everyone here thinks. It's one of the core aspects of Hordes and that game is lauded as very balanced and tactical.

I do not think anyone actually disagrees with that. The issue is that you are saying it takes more skill to use one set of skills than it takes to use another.

Currently you cannot know if your charge is valid because you cannot measure.
There is ALREADY a need for contingency plans.

Changing the game to one that involves randomness instead of. . .skill is not requiring more skill.

Fair enough, it's a different skill, and both are pretty shallow (calculating odds on 2D6 vs eyeballing ranges in the 6-12" range... both easy enough to be irrelevant after a few games and hardly indicative of good generalship) but the former has greater predicting power and allows for a finer degree of risk management.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kirasu wrote:There is a HUGE difference between WFB charges and simple "Random charge distance". In WFB you have a set MINIMUM charge range which is movement +2" and thus I think we need some major clarifications on if charging in 6th is purely random (Which makes no damn sense) or if its base movement + a roll. Also there seems to be conflicting rumors with one saying how you double your movement when you charge, which seems in direct contention with "random charges"

It's not purely random in any case, it's a probability and assessing your chances of success and managing the risks is a skill, no matter what everyone here thinks. It's one of the core aspects of Hordes and that game is lauded as very balanced and tactical.

Yeah but warmachine isn't 100% random. When you do a damage roll you add your combined strength + weapon to the 2d6 roll. This is still very difference from your damage being simply just a 2d6.

We'll see, but base movement + random die roll is completely different from "random die roll" as you have a minimum to plan upon and I seriously hope it's not a totally random roll.. That would make the assault phase extremely gimmicky

lord_blackfang wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:So you don't think that having a contingency plan in case your 2D6" charge move fails requires more skill than always knowing exactly what's going to happen?

No, it requires a contingency plan.

Playing chess doesn't require skill, it just requires you to be good at chess...

It is and is not a skill, it is a form of thinking. Skills are things people have trained for. Chess requires you to access a diffrent train of though which is not really a skill, simply because everyone can do it but few can accept it. Those that are good at chess tend to be people that can think along multiple trains of thoughts and relate to people (when they figure out they can do that anyways. . . )

Therion wrote:

I have no idea where this comes from. The only thing variance adds is the possibility of a worse player beating the better player through luck. Any commercial game needs it in some amount, because bad players constitute the majority of it's customer base, and you don't want a single guy who "cracked the system" scaring everyone off. That's it. Nothing more.

Perfectly said. Variance exists in games so that weak players get to win a couple games or hands in the short term but are still always losers in the long term. No amount of randomness will make a dumb guy smart, he just gets lucky every now and then. Therefore randomness brings weak players into the scene for good players to beat, but too much randomness kills the whole game.

Reminds me of why I dislike random game length

My biggest hope is that measuring is allowed whenever.
I am entirely incapable of spacial correspondence, apparently.
I constantly and consistently misjudge ranges.

I never really understood the idea of pre-measuring though - shouldn't it be 'prior to measuring', or somesuch?
Pre-measure is what happens before you measure, right?

Actually chess is more about recognizing patterns, same with street fighter. Thats why the experienced players can have problems with newbs(not to say they will lose, just have problems) because they have no idea what the hell they are doing.

Anyway I think it is more likely to be something along the lines of 3 +2d6 take the highest for infantry just because anything else makes the charge speed too fast IMO.

Liking everything else so far, however in a vacuum it is hard to know for sure.

Also there are few things that I buy and know I am going to use for 4-5 years. 75 bucks isn't bad for that. I spend 60 on a video game that I most likely wont get more than 100 hours out of.

Reminds me of why I dislike random game length

Random game length is a good example of a really ridiculous rule. I'm sure most players remember atleast one extremely frustrated instance of having a huge victory in their hands if the game continues for even one turn but then the 16.6% chance comes to screw everything up. Not to mention games with objectives where a player whose entire army is being tabled due to bad play moves one of his last models/units to a critical objective and then the game ends against all odds. Now if the contingency plan to that is 'just table your opponent quicker' then people need a reality check. That's nothing more than variance introduced in the game so that weak players sometimes get a lot better results than they deserve.

I hate the idea of random charge length. I can accept randomness in the shooting/attack results, but I hate random movement. It's one of the things I really liked about the pancake edition is it did away with a lot of the random movement and minimized the number of times you had to move a unit in a single turn. The game flowed so much faster.

Random game length was just a bad attempt at fixing bad missions. Maybe this time they'll figure out something else to prevent last turn Land Speeder objective grabs.

Maelstrom808 wrote:I hate the idea of random charge length. I can accept randomness in the shooting/attack results, but I hate random movement. It's one of the things I really liked about the pancake edition is it did away with a lot of the random movement and minimized the number of times you had to move a unit in a single turn. The game flowed so much faster.

How do you feel about the current random run rules? I'm assuming you're not a fan?

lord_blackfang wrote:Random game length was just a bad attempt at fixing bad missions. Maybe this time they'll figure out something else to prevent last turn Land Speeder objective grabs.

According to what we have in the OP, looks like vehicles being unable to contest objectives fits the bill there.

Ugh, random game length really grates my cheese.

Also, something I just thought of: if vehicles count as WS 1 if they don't move/don't move very far, does that mean Lelith Hesperax will get roughly a bajillion attacks against them? Not that she'd do anything to them though...

4+ ruins cover is total garbage.
This means that a fallent colum gives more cover to a soilder than a undamaged ferrocrete wall...
...
...
...

Really? -.-

Vintersorg wrote:4+ ruins cover is total garbage.
This means that a fallent colum gives more cover to a soilder than a undamaged ferrocrete wall...
...
...
...

Really? -.-

I think thats because there usually is more to a ruin than just a dropped pillar. Especially when you consider all of the ruined building terrain that GW tries to sell.

Myself, I just hope things like forests become area terrain again. The large forest populated by 3 small trees because its impossible to play/manuver with more is stupidly unrealistic when considering what has blocked LOS and what has not.

Vintersorg wrote:4+ ruins cover is total garbage.
This means that a fallent colum gives more cover to a soilder than a undamaged ferrocrete wall...
...
...
...

Really? -.-

Given that ruins give 4+ cover, and a ferrocrete wall would give 4+ cover or block LoS completely... no. Not really.

I'm ok with random game length if you roll at the START of the turn instead of the end.

Knowing you have 1 more turn is better than just ending in an anti climatic turn.

I do not really want the rules to change, what would be best would be to mix 3rd, 4th, and 5th concepts into 6th. This would recieve the best of the above with the rules/concepts that everyone liked. Trying to make an entirely different game for a new edition is just stupid, editions are meant to be advances and fixs that further the original idea. When you upgrade from Windows'85 to '95 it is not a completely foreign thing there, it maintains what it was with a few adjustments to allow user-friendly and fixings of bugs/quirks.

For US it looks like this at current exchange rate. Seems kinda low to me though...

40k GW 440 Full Color Hardback Rule Book - £45/$56.
40k Psychic Cards 35 Large Format carts with holder £8/$10
Metal Look Templates £12/$15
ServoSkull Tape Measure £10/13
Metal Look Dice £10/$13

Feel as though it will be closer to this
40k GW 440 Full Color Hardback Rule Book - $70
40k Psychic Cards 35 Large Format carts with holder $20
Metal Look Templates $40
ServoSkull Tape Measure $20
Metal Look Dice $20

lord_blackfang wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:So you don't think that having a contingency plan in case your 2D6" charge move fails requires more skill than always knowing exactly what's going to happen?

No, it requires a contingency plan.

Playing chess doesn't require skill, it just requires you to be good at chess...

Like it!
going back to randomness:
It's easier to make strategic decisions about charge if you know what the odds are (premeasuring + roll) than build your strategy on assumption that you are within 6"... So what is more unpredictable in terms of gaming/strategy???? And what is less random???

Smolo82 wrote:For US it looks like this at current exchange rate. Seems kinda low to me though...

40k GW 440 Full Color Hardback Rule Book - £45/$56.
40k Psychic Cards 35 Large Format carts with holder £8/$10
Metal Look Templates £12/$15
ServoSkull Tape Measure £10/13
Metal Look Dice £10/$13

Feel as though it will be closer to this
40k GW 440 Full Color Hardback Rule Book - $70
40k Psychic Cards 35 Large Format carts with holder $20
Metal Look Templates $40
ServoSkull Tape Measure $20
Metal Look Dice $20

The GW exchange rate to other countries has never matched global trading values since i've been paying attention. Just look at Australian prices compared to the GBP and USD. Your second set of numbers are probably more accurate, just based on guesses.