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Therion wrote:

If kps equal 1 per 50 points of a unit cost it drops the tally to a quicker number. A rhino would be 1 kp. A razorback, 2.

This would be an incredibly stupid rule. Victory points is all that people want, but instead of that we get kill points that are supposed to make it easier to count? What? The points costs of units is normally printed right there in the player's army list. How hard can it be to add those up? Not to mention the way those 50 point steps affect army building. If a 50 point unit is worth 1 kill point and a 51-100 point unit 2 kill points, you'd always have to make sure you spend to the lower cap. You get 5 Wraiths with 3 Whip Coils and they're worth 4 kill points but with 2 Whip Coils only 3 kill points. It's insane.

^
This

This would seriously be the new super metagame cheese. And I sit here and look at my Tau lists and I would almost always end up giving away and extra KP because I went like 5-10pts over.

Therion wrote:

If kps equal 1 per 50 points of a unit cost it drops the tally to a quicker number. A rhino would be 1 kp. A razorback, 2.

This would be an incredibly stupid rule. Victory points is all that people want, but instead of that we get kill points that are supposed to make it easier to count? What? The points costs of units is normally printed right there in the player's army list. How hard can it be to add those up? Not to mention the way those 50 point steps affect army building. If a 50 point unit is worth 1 kill point and a 51-100 point unit 2 kill points, you'd always have to make sure you spend to the lower cap. You get 5 Wraiths with 3 Whip Coils and they're worth 4 kill points but with 2 Whip Coils only 3 kill points. It's insane. Your Razorback example is a pretty good one though considering that nerfing Razors might actually be a motivation behind something as stupid as this.

You'd be surprised at how hard first grade math is to some people. PP went as far as dividing all their points costs by 15 (roughly) because people had issues counting up to 500. And even now many still need army building software to add up to 35...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding min/maxing for Kill Points, pancake edition (as always) had an elegant solution in that the thresholds were slightly randomized each game.

Regarding min/maxing for Kill Points, pancake edition (as always) had an elegant solution in that the thresholds were slightly randomized each game.

Completely unnecessary complication that only generates more confusion, headache and annoyance even for those who never went to school and/or don't know how to use a calculator. What was the threshold again? This unit is worth 2 kill points, no, wait, 3 kill points, wait a second. No that can't be right. Yeah you got 27 kill points total. No, wait, it's actually 24. Atleast I think so. Let's check again. What was the threshold again?

I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone with a calculator in it. In this day and age I'm pretty sure everyone can add the points costs of the units up to see how much they lost. They had to have been capable of building a legal army list in the first place. If dividing by two for wounded models or units over half strength is too hard just award points only for destroyed or falling back models and units.

Oh, I don't disagree, I'm just being... informative.

I love ap in cc weapons.
This means that the bayonet mounted on the rifles of my Veterans can pierce an Ork Boy armour.


And this is good...

I love ap in cc weapons.

We'll see how that turns out. What about S5 or S6 (or higher) creatures with just their claws and talons? What's their AP in close combat? Are we sure this entire rule doesn't exist just to give Marines with chainswords a boost?

Therion wrote:I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone with a calculator in it. In this day and age I'm pretty sure everyone can add the points costs of the units up to see how much they lost. T

I don't. My phone is for making calls only, so that's all it can do.Then again, I know how to use a pencil and paper, unlike half the idiots at the average games night.

Sounds like kill points continue to not make any sense.

In a recent tourney with friends we played as if you kill a full unit or at least wreck a vehicle, you get the points cost of that unit. Considering most people use army lists it is SO easy to find the costs of destroyed units as you already have them all written down before the game starts.

So if you kill 9 out of 10 marines in a squad - no points
if you kill all 10 marines - you gain KP equal to the total cost of the unit.

If you immobilize that rhino and ignore it for the rest of the game - no points.

2nd edition's Victory points system was for every 100 points or fraction-thereof, you gained 1 victory point. Certain Mission cards had the potential to give you bonuses for VP's, for example the mission card Engage and Destroy gave you +1 bonus for each squad, vehicle and IC destroyed.

In regards to the JI I10 charge issue; wasn't it stated that it was only for 1 free attack when they charged? So, if a unit of JI assault a mob of Orks, then they would receive 1 attack each at I10, and then the rest of their normal attacks at their base-initiative.....?

Just trying to keep up with what has been mentioned so far; please correct if I'm wrong...

ThirdUltra wrote:2nd edition's Victory points system was for every 100 points or fraction-thereof, you gained 1 victory point. Certain Mission cards had the potential to give you bonuses for VP's, for example the mission card Engage and Destroy gave you +1 bonus for each squad, vehicle and IC destroyed.

In regards to the JI I10 charge issue; wasn't it stated that it was only for 1 free attack when they charged? So, if a unit of JI assault a mob of Orks, then they would receive 1 attack each at I10, and then the rest of their normal attacks at their base-initiative.....?

Just trying to keep up with what has been mentioned so far; please correct if I'm wrong...

I'm not sure what interpetation of that JI rule woudl be worse. The unit getting a free "pre-assault" hit at I10 when they charge in (in addition to their normal attacks), or they hit with their normal attacks, but at I10. I guess it woudl depend on the strength of the pre-assault hit.

Exalted Pariah wrote:I gotta admit, jump infantry getting Int10 on the charge makes wraiths hella scary and preatorians finally worth it

DreadKnights...

Just a note that my local GW has just put this on the Facebook page today.

'We have flyers that have come through from head office inviting you all down to the 23rd of this month.... Come in and see'

I'll pop in on my lunch today so I will find out what this is.

Therion wrote:

If kps equal 1 per 50 points of a unit cost it drops the tally to a quicker number. A rhino would be 1 kp. A razorback, 2.

This would be an incredibly stupid rule. Victory points is all that people want, but instead of that we get kill points that are supposed to make it easier to count? What? The points costs of units is normally printed right there in the player's army list. How hard can it be to add those up? Not to mention the way those 50 point steps affect army building. If a 50 point unit is worth 1 kill point and a 51-100 point unit 2 kill points, you'd always have to make sure you spend to the lower cap. You get 5 Wraiths with 3 Whip Coils and they're worth 4 kill points but with 2 Whip Coils only 3 kill points. It's insane. Your Razorback example is a pretty good one though considering that nerfing Razors might actually be a motivation behind something as stupid as this.

Units "Earning their points back" (earning more/equal VPs than it's worth) has meaning again if this is true. IMO, a Land Raider shouldn't be worth one KP the same as a single Land Speeder unit. So no one has ever cherry picked all the drop pods in the fourth or fifth turn for the win? I've done it and have had it done to me. My 'nid spores lost plenty of games this way. I used to run 6 of them.

I try never to play KP. In a frendly game if it comes up, I ask if we can simply use VP instead. Problem solved.

IMO, a Land Raider shouldn't be worth one KP the same as a single Land Speeder unit

You're right. A 250 point Land Raider should be worth 250 kill points, while a 50 point Land Speeder should be worth 50 kill points. As such a revolutionary and novel concept we could even call the system victory points...

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Therion wrote:I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone with a calculator in it. In this day and age I'm pretty sure everyone can add the points costs of the units up to see how much they lost. T

I don't. My phone is for making calls only, so that's all it can do.Then again, I know how to use a pencil and paper, unlike half the idiots at the average games night.

Oh please, don't be obtuse. Every phone in the last decade or more has had a calculator function. I would know, that's how I make my living. You know how to use paper and pencil, but clearly can't use a phone to save your life!

I've said before, this hobby generally attracts people of higher intelligence (if of limited social skill in some cases) and a bit of math is not going to be beyond most players, except maybe the very young players. That would be the argument against their inclusion as GW clearly targets the younger player, and anything that may be judged needless complexity is now lining a bin in Nottingham somewhere. I would prefer a return to the old system, the current one really doesn't allow for the resources one must dedicate to eradicating big, high priority targets or their significance to your opponent should they be lost.

Great. No more landraiders, unless they somehow make them more durable. good thing I have three painted and two or three more sitting NIB.

VP100 was a rule when I first tried WHFB in 5th ed; stupid. VPs going away and being replaced by KPs was clumsy, but had good effects on army design. I'll be annoyed if they abandon it to go back to a system which magnifies codex power imbalances rather than reducing them.

Mannahnin wrote:Great. No more landraiders, unless they somehow make them more durable. good thing I have three painted and two or three more sitting NIB.

VP100 was a rule when I first tried WHFB in 5th ed; stupid. VPs going away and being replaced by KPs was clumsy, but had good effects on army design. I'll be annoyed if they abandon it to go back to a system which magnifies codex power imbalances rather than reducing them.

One of my favorite things about 5th was that tactics forums were no longer entirely made up of people arguing about which units "made their points back". That's definitely not a thing I'd like to see come back.

Therion wrote:

IMO, a Land Raider shouldn't be worth one KP the same as a single Land Speeder unit

You're right. A 250 point Land Raider should be worth 250 kill points, while a 50 point Land Speeder should be worth 50 kill points. As such a revolutionary and novel concept we could even call the system victory points...

Sarcasm I see...

It's relative. 5 KP vs 1 KP. If true, I'm sure there will be some rounding in the 50 pt margins. Doesn't seem like the rumor has any provision for damaged unit and half str like current VPs has.

Additionally, 5th edition VP system is an alternate means of scoring, this sounds like it will be a primary means.

This is all conjecture anyway.


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Agamemnon2 wrote:

Therion wrote:I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone with a calculator in it. In this day and age I'm pretty sure everyone can add the points costs of the units up to see how much they lost. T

I don't. My phone is for making calls only, so that's all it can do.Then again, I know how to use a pencil and paper, unlike half the idiots at the average games night.

Wow.

Therion wrote:

I love ap in cc weapons.

We'll see how that turns out. What about S5 or S6 (or higher) creatures with just their claws and talons? What's their AP in close combat? Are we sure this entire rule doesn't exist just to give Marines with chainswords a boost?

I wouldn't be surprised to be honest. They really shouldn't be more than AP5 and AP6 sounds the most reasonable. I have to say though, the CC Weapon AP Rule does sound pretty good although it may advantage Marines more than most.

Moving on, does anyone have any idea when abouts the Starter Kit (Like Black Reach) is going to come out? I assume GW are going to be their usual irritating selves in this regard and make us wait two months...

September has been what everyone is saying for the Starter set.

azreal13 wrote:Oh please, don't be obtuse. Every phone in the last decade or more has had a calculator function.

Actually, not ALL of them do. You can ask for cellphones that have absolutely NO features beyond making calls, at least at Verizon. My wife has one to bring to work for Restricted Access areas, there's no calculator on it.

azreal13 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Therion wrote:I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone with a calculator in it. In this day and age I'm pretty sure everyone can add the points costs of the units up to see how much they lost. T

I don't. My phone is for making calls only, so that's all it can do.Then again, I know how to use a pencil and paper, unlike half the idiots at the average games night.

Oh please, don't be obtuse. Every phone in the last decade or more has had a calculator function. I would know, that's how I make my living. You know how to use paper and pencil, but clearly can't use a phone to save your life!

I've said before, this hobby generally attracts people of higher intelligence (if of limited social skill in some cases) and a bit of math is not going to be beyond most players, except maybe the very young players. That would be the argument against their inclusion as GW clearly targets the younger player, and anything that may be judged needless complexity is now lining a bin in Nottingham somewhere. I would prefer a return to the old system, the current one really doesn't allow for the resources one must dedicate to eradicating big, high priority targets or their significance to your opponent should they be lost.

Mine doesn't.

Not all phones do Most, these days, yes, but not all.

Here's a few that probably don't. Can't be certain, as i don't own these specific models, but there are phones out there that just make calls

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2378985,00.asp

That said, it's really not that hard to do the math in your head, or on the back of your army list. If it get a total brain freeze my tape measure has a calculator in it.

Give it time, Games Workshop will release a sprue that once assembled, becomes an abacus. Who needs a calculator when you can assemble and paint your own abacus? Just in time for Victory Kill Win Points calculations, the newest way to REALLY see who won!


/sarcasm

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Therion wrote:I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone with a calculator in it. In this day and age I'm pretty sure everyone can add the points costs of the units up to see how much they lost. T

I don't. My phone is for making calls only, so that's all it can do.Then again, I know how to use a pencil and paper, unlike half the idiots at the average games night.

/raisehand

No phone here. Don't want one. I'm at the store 7 days a week, and home is 5 minutes away. If I'm driving, I'm not talking. No need for a cell phone.

But the arguement that everyone can use a calculator or have access to one is valid. You'd be amazed though at how quick your math skills come back when you don't use a calculator. I quit using one for basic math decades ago. The more you use the brain, the better it works. I tutor a lot of math, and am horrified at the horrible skills people have. Lots of college students flunking Calculus because they don't know times tables.

mikhaila wrote:Lots of college students flunking Calculus because they don't know times tables.

...
Wait, what ?
In my experience, it's usually calculus that ruins your capacity to do basic math.

It's the numbers. Once you get used to letters, they are just confusing.

I always just break things down into easily-processed chunks and then add it all up. That is if it's too difficult to just know off the cuff.

That being said, I once had to show two kids how to add up 6 lots of 15, when they had a pen and paper handy, so to each their own.

mikhaila wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Therion wrote:I don't know anyone who doesn't have a mobile phone with a calculator in it. In this day and age I'm pretty sure everyone can add the points costs of the units up to see how much they lost. T

I don't. My phone is for making calls only, so that's all it can do.Then again, I know how to use a pencil and paper, unlike half the idiots at the average games night.

/raisehand

No phone here. Don't want one. I'm at the store 7 days a week, and home is 5 minutes away. If I'm driving, I'm not talking. No need for a cell phone.

But the arguement that everyone can use a calculator or have access to one is valid. You'd be amazed though at how quick your math skills come back when you don't use a calculator. I quit using one for basic math decades ago. The more you use the brain, the better it works. I tutor a lot of math, and am horrified at the horrible skills people have. Lots of college students flunking Calculus because they don't know times tables.

Mike - have you heard anything official in terms of releases, dates and prices in USD?

The fuss over victory points seems to gloss over the gross imbalance in 5th it would replace. Killpoints are patently unfair to a selection of armies. This is the sole reason the paladin list is broken, it has fraction of your kill points and just has to do some heavy lifting for a turn or two then the other player can simply pack their models and go home. Bringing back victory points in some fashion helps this mess somewhat (even if its a representative total going towards kill points).