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2012/06/08 20:32:36
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
What? No it's not. The proposal that some all-powerful god is responsible for the creation of the universe is totally outlandish. It is the definition of supernatural.
.
yet scientists claim that the Big bang came from nothing, which is more outlandish??
Really? Do they? Which ones? What do they say, specifically?
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
2012/06/08 20:33:47
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
What? No it's not. The proposal that some all-powerful god is responsible for the creation of the universe is totally outlandish. It is the definition of supernatural.
.
yet scientists claim that the Big bang came from nothing, which is more outlandish??
Pretty sure magic men in the sky are more outlandish. The Big Bang is founded on a lot of different information and research that is tested and verifiable, and if the information changes, the theory will change. It isn't static and it doesn't say it is right and no one may ever question it. In fact part of the process is constantly questioning it. Saying Magic Mike in the sky did it will never change no matter what evidence or lack of evidence is presented. Of course I don't believe science and religion are antithetical to each other in every way, but you only listed the two options, so that is what I have to work with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 20:35:38
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/06/08 20:37:35
Subject: Re:Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
The greater the claim the greater the need for evidence. You claim god exists, you need to prove it. For it to be scientific you need to describe god, then provide proof for his existence, and the proof needs to be falsifiable. the bible predicted the foundation of israel to the day? Prove it, what verse was that exactly where it specifically says 1948? And self fulfilling prophecies aren't exactly hard to make. I predict sometime soon this thread will be locked. hey look I'm a prophet.
if you don't believe in the tooth fairy then that's your religion as well. anti tooth fairy is your dogma and faith.
guessing bible versus? Really? So you didn't see the chalk board when you walked in? so your god is just the god of large numbers?
double cross? So you're all sitting around backstabbing each other? I can buy that.
The salvation army is a huge bunch of bigots. They take their charitable donations and use it to fund anti gay and anti women legislature. They also threatened the state of new york with not helping the poor if they passed marriage equality. Very religious of them.
so after being so wrong about your wall of text, we should just take your word that atheists is a faith and a religion? sorry, not buying it.
2012/06/08 20:39:09
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
What? No it's not. The proposal that some all-powerful god is responsible for the creation of the universe is totally outlandish. It is the definition of supernatural.
.
yet scientists claim that the Big bang came from nothing, which is more outlandish??
No one is saying the Big Bang came from nothing. It came from a very small, very massive, and very energetic lump.
Where exactly that lump came from isn't clear. But, hopefully it will be in the next few decades.
What? No it's not. The proposal that some all-powerful god is responsible for the creation of the universe is totally outlandish. It is the definition of supernatural.
.
yet scientists claim that the Big bang came from nothing, which is more outlandish??
god is more outlandish.
which is more likely the universe has always been here in some form or another. or some god type creature has always been lurking around, then outlandishly created everything by magic.
0058/06/08 20:41:11
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Kaldor wrote:
citation needed.
And that's another big 'ole citation needed.
I just gave you one, and told you where to find others.
Your a man of 'reason' and 'science'. Ok, show us you are. I told you where to look, see for yourself.
Kaldor wrote:
Uh, teeth, pillows, coins? Hello?
Placed by parents under their own admission. Like Christmas presents are delivered by parents not Santa down chimneys.
Easily explained.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/06/08 21:16:00
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Kaldor wrote:
citation needed.
And that's another big 'ole citation needed.
I just gave you one, and told you where to find others.
Your a man of 'reason' and 'science'. Ok, show us you are. I told you where to look, see for yourself.
No, you don't get let off so easily.
Where are your citations? Such a common phenomena must be easily tested and verified, so where is your evidence? If no relevant studies have been made (remember, they need to be published in peer reviewed scientific journals) then where is your basis for your claim?
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
2012/06/08 21:24:14
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Kaldor wrote: citation needed. And that's another big 'ole citation needed.
I just gave you one, and told you where to find others.
Your a man of 'reason' and 'science'. Ok, show us you are. I told you where to look, see for yourself.
No, you don't get let off so easily.
Where are your citations? Such a common phenomena must be easily tested and verified, so where is your evidence? If no relevant studies have been made (remember, they need to be published in peer reviewed scientific journals) then where is your basis for your claim?
Do you know how many studies published in peer reviewed scientific journals turn out to be bogus?
If that is your main criteria for sorting out "truth and reason" from "crazy ignorant belief" then you might need to look at better places.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 21:24:54
0026/04/08 21:24:43
Subject: Re:Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
This expresses my opinion on the matter. Atheism ain't a religion. We don't have holy books we all have to follow to be atheists. We don't have Saints or Holy figures. Being an atheist just means that ya think God is a load of hooey, and that's it. Just because there are a few crazy, zealot atheists doesn't mean we're a religion. There are crazy Warhammer 40k zealots, but that don't mean Warhammer 40k is a religion. There are crazy Tea Party zealots, but that don't mean the Tea Party is a religion. There are crazy Harry Potter zealots, but that don't mean Harry Potter is a religion.
2012/06/08 21:26:22
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
DogOfWar wrote:
Faithful people have a lot of ground to make up considering the millions of people who have died for the various incarnations of 'god' throughout history.
Let's hope you do keep up the "good work," just don't expect me to be grateful for too little, too late.
Are you going to condemn religious people for the actions of others who profess the same faith.
By your logic, society might as well lock you up for the shooting of JFK and the massacre of the Native Americans, after all your an American too. It doesn't work that way.
I have no moral responsibility for the Inquisition, the Crusades or militant Islam now or from the past. Faith groups in general have no responsibility for the excesses of other generations, the medieval church was a political entity and had political ends. That had little or nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, even so there were some who went against the flow.
The modern churches have no moral responsibility for that past. They do for stuff that happens in the present, the Papacy needs to clean up its act on child protection and other issues for example.
Are you claiming an atheistic point? If so will you practice what you preach and accept responsibility for atheist Communism and the millions it killed, do you consider that your collective moral responsibility. I don't, but if your opinion made any sense it would be internally consistent.
Where is the too little from, where is the too late? Churches have been running orphanages schools hospitals and charities since the time it was founded, and other faiths also. There are food houses in India millenia old set up adjoining temples dedicated to providing for the poor. Perhaps you just don't want to see it, perhaps you just want to see religion as an enemy to hate that does little or no good.
I dont think your intolerance says as much about religion and its ills as it does about you.
Besides what is your solution, moving us all on towards 'reason'. Lenin tried that, the result wasn't particularly reasonable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote:
Kaldor wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Kaldor wrote:
citation needed.
And that's another big 'ole citation needed.
I just gave you one, and told you where to find others.
Your a man of 'reason' and 'science'. Ok, show us you are. I told you where to look, see for yourself.
No, you don't get let off so easily.
Where are your citations? Such a common phenomena must be easily tested and verified, so where is your evidence? If no relevant studies have been made (remember, they need to be published in peer reviewed scientific journals) then where is your basis for your claim?
Do you know how many studies published in peer reviewed scientific journals turn out to be bogus?
If that is your main criteria for sorting out "truth and reason" from "crazy ignorant belief" then you might need to look at better places.
The man of science says 'show me'. The honest man tells the man of science where to look. If someone doesn't want to loom for the evidence perhaps they are afraid of what they might find. That isnt uncommon even amongst professing men of science, we are after all human and creatures of emotion as well as reason, and our pet beliefs are often the stronger side.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LoneLictor wrote:
This expresses my opinion on the matter. Atheism ain't a religion. We don't have holy books we all have to follow to be atheists. We don't have Saints or Holy figures. Being an atheist just means that ya think God is a load of hooey, and that's it. Just because there are a few crazy, zealot atheists doesn't mean we're a religion. There are crazy Warhammer 40k zealots, but that don't mean Warhammer 40k is a religion. There are crazy Tea Party zealots, but that don't mean the Tea Party is a religion. There are crazy Harry Potter zealots, but that don't mean Harry Potter is a religion.
Let us use your prefered analogy. Do you deny the existence of golf, do you wish to prevent the practice of golf or wish it went away?
Besides there is no word for a non-Golf players because Golf is not part of our thanatonic experience. People may go through life without wondering if they should play golf. Humans are mortal, we know we are going to die and we question about our fate in a different way to a golf game. One way or another we come to personal conclusions of what our fate is, this is the basis of religious preference.
Its hard to know for sure, the most we get are promises, take them or leave them. Spiritual unsurety is one constant for humanity and for that we make our own conclusions. Those conclusions no matter how you dress them up are a faith choice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/08 21:35:21
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2012/06/08 21:35:42
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
The man of science says 'show me'. The honest man tells the man of science where to look. If someone doesn't want to loom for the evidence perhaps they are afraid of what they might find. That isnt uncommon even amongst professing men of science, we are after all human and creatures of emotion as well as reason, and our pet beliefs are often the stronger side.
There's some nice projecting of your faults onto others.
2012/06/08 21:40:53
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
What? No it's not. The proposal that some all-powerful god is responsible for the creation of the universe is totally outlandish. It is the definition of supernatural. .
yet scientists claim that the Big bang came from nothing, which is more outlandish??
Already covered but anyway...
It did not come from nothing, it came from a singularity which mathematics cannot describe, so using the mathematics of astrophysics and cosmology we can trace things back to that point, but not before, because maths cannot describe what was before.
I really didn't want to have to spell out the illogicality of religion, because it sounds preachy, so I shall spoiler it so as not to seem as though I wish to force my beliefs onto anyone. Please don't open if you think you might be offended.
Spoiler:
Why, if God is omniscient, and knows all, does evil exist. And the free will argument doesn't work, because He'd know every choice you would make. Therefore God is not good, but both good and evil. And the good bit is debatable because often times he treats humanity with the a sort of emotional blackmail. Why exactly are the first four commandments so self obsessed, would a God care more about false idols than murder? I am no psychologist, but it seems that level of insecurity is entirely human in it's origin. And then you have the idea that He is an Interventionist/Non Inerventionist God, who will show himself to his prophets while letting millions of children die every year from stupid preventable diseases. The assertion goes that God created man, well imho it's the other way round, and the whole idea has served it's purpose, for a very long time now religion has killed far more than it has saved. MODS- if you feel this too inflammatory please just remove it.
So you see the big bang is based on Maths, an empirically provable discipline, while religion is based on books, that people wrote, full of logical inconsistencies. Therein lies the difference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 21:59:25
2012/06/08 21:46:23
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Orlanth wrote:Let us use your prefered analogy. Do you deny the existence of golf, do you wish to prevent the practice of golf or wish it went away?
Besides there is no word for a non-Golf players because Golf is not part of our thanatonic experience. People may go through life without wondering if they should play golf. Humans are mortal, we know we are going to die and we question about our fate in a different way to a golf game. One way or another we come to personal conclusions of what our fate is, this is the basis of religious preference.
Its hard to know for sure, the most we get are promises, take them or leave them. Spiritual unsurety is one constant for humanity and for that we make our own conclusions. Those conclusions no matter how you dress them up are a faith choice.
So you're logic is this...
Deciding not to have faith is a choice regarding faith.
Thus it's a faith choice.
Thus, because I put the word faith in there, it means you have faith.
That means you're religious.
It's almost as if, somehow, that doesn't make any sense.
2012/06/08 21:53:27
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
There might be a very good reason for that.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/06/08 21:58:01
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Orlanth wrote:Let us use your prefered analogy. Do you deny the existence of golf, do you wish to prevent the practice of golf or wish it went away?
Besides there is no word for a non-Golf players because Golf is not part of our thanatonic experience. People may go through life without wondering if they should play golf. Humans are mortal, we know we are going to die and we question about our fate in a different way to a golf game. One way or another we come to personal conclusions of what our fate is, this is the basis of religious preference.
Its hard to know for sure, the most we get are promises, take them or leave them. Spiritual unsurety is one constant for humanity and for that we make our own conclusions. Those conclusions no matter how you dress them up are a faith choice.
So you're logic is this...
Deciding not to have faith is a choice regarding faith.
Thus it's a faith choice.
Thus, because I put the word faith in there, it means you have faith.
That means you're religious.
It's almost as if, somehow, that doesn't make any sense.
This. A choice about faith isn't necessary a choice of faith.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/08 22:05:42
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Orlanth wrote:Let us use your prefered analogy. Do you deny the existence of golf, do you wish to prevent the practice of golf or wish it went away?
Besides there is no word for a non-Golf players because Golf is not part of our thanatonic experience. People may go through life without wondering if they should play golf. Humans are mortal, we know we are going to die and we question about our fate in a different way to a golf game. One way or another we come to personal conclusions of what our fate is, this is the basis of religious preference.
Its hard to know for sure, the most we get are promises, take them or leave them. Spiritual unsurety is one constant for humanity and for that we make our own conclusions. Those conclusions no matter how you dress them up are a faith choice.
So you're logic is this...
Deciding not to have faith is a choice regarding faith.
Thus it's a faith choice.
Thus, because I put the word faith in there, it means you have faith.
That means you're religious.
It's almost as if, somehow, that doesn't make any sense.
This. A choice about faith isn't necessary a choice of faith.
There's also a difference between not believing in God and believing God doesn't exist.
Why, if God is omniscient, and knows all, does evil exist. And the free will argument doesn't work, because He'd know every choice you would make. Therefore God is not good, but both good and evil
This is applying human morals to a being (Which whether you believes exists or not) which transcends human logic and morality so the whole God is good and evil argument is flawed as well
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/06/08 22:13:34
Subject: Re:Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Why, if God is omniscient, and knows all, does evil exist. And the free will argument doesn't work, because He'd know every choice you would make. Therefore God is not good, but both good and evil
This is applying human morals to a being (Which whether you believes exists or not) which transcends human logic and morality so the whole God is good and evil argument is flawed as well
So god is unknowable and so alien we can't discern anything about her or her desires. Well that helps.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/06/08 22:15:18
Subject: Re:Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Why, if God is omniscient, and knows all, does evil exist. And the free will argument doesn't work, because He'd know every choice you would make. Therefore God is not good, but both good and evil
This is applying human morals to a being (Which whether you believes exists or not) which transcends human logic and morality so the whole God is good and evil argument is flawed as well
So god is unknowable and so alien we can't discern anything about her or her desires. Well that helps.
Why, if God is omniscient, and knows all, does evil exist. And the free will argument doesn't work, because He'd know every choice you would make. Therefore God is not good, but both good and evil
This is applying human morals to a being (Which whether you believes exists or not) which transcends human logic and morality so the whole God is good and evil argument is flawed as well
If you take the Jewish interpretation yes absolutely, God works in mysterious ways as they say. The Christian one is somewhat different though, evil exists because of free will and the choices of men is the crux of it, should I remind you of the forbidden fruit, something, btw, God knew would be eaten from the time he created it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 22:17:47
2012/06/08 22:19:35
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
Why would I not only believe in, but WORSHIP a being whose morality, logic and desires were unknowable? That's just being silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At least Tzeentch rewards his followers with knowledge, strength, and possibly Daemonhood.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 22:20:44
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/06/08 22:21:04
Subject: Re:Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Why, if God is omniscient, and knows all, does evil exist. And the free will argument doesn't work, because He'd know every choice you would make. Therefore God is not good, but both good and evil
This is applying human morals to a being (Which whether you believes exists or not) which transcends human logic and morality so the whole God is good and evil argument is flawed as well
If you take the Jewish interpretation yes absolutely, God works in mysterious ways as they say. The Christian one is somewhat different though, evil exists because of free will and the choices of men is the crux of it, should I remind you of the forbidden fruit, something, btw, God knew would be eaten from the time he created it.
Just because you know something doesn't mean you can change the outcome of it
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/06/08 22:25:16
Subject: Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
Yet god is supposedly omnipotent. If he KNEW it was going to happen, but could not change that, then when Adam and Eve did eat the apple, he should have said "Truth be told it's not your fault, it was going to happen regardless of what I or anyone else did, I'm sorry. Here, have a divine muffin."
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/06/08 22:25:57
Subject: Re:Why do people claim that Atheism is a religion?
Squigsquasher wrote:Yet god is supposedly omnipotent. If he KNEW it was going to happen, but could not change that, then when Adam and Eve did eat the apple, he should have said "Truth be told it's not your fault, it was going to happen regardless of what I or anyone else did, I'm sorry. Here, have a divine muffin."
The thing is, even if he already knew how it was going to happen, it was still their decision. That doesn't make it not their fault. If you knew someone else was going to do something no matter what anyone else did or what else happened, would that make it any less their fault or any less their decision?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dæl wrote:
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Just because you know something doesn't mean you can change the outcome of it
Omnipotence says you can. All powerful doesn't sit well with "I couldn't do anything to change it."
But of course, he could have changed it and simply chose not to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/08 22:29:20
