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 Iranna wrote:

Perhaps it is you who did not catch Ravenous D being facetious and it is you who does not realise that it is in fact HE who is making fun of you...

Just as planned...

Iranna.

Are you high right now?

Emp. wrote:


Are you high right now?

Not particularly, are you?

Iranna.

To respond to your statements....boy I wish I was.....

Look, the precedent is set in the FAQ already:

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

As in, you cannot give all these upgrades to a Nob and then elect to upgrade him to a Painboy and hope to keep it all. This is a parallel rule. There is no typo unless GW comes out and specifically says "hey, delete this part and add this to the entry."

This is just stupid, rule is perfectly clear. You cannot have more than ten zombies.

Now, in this case rules are silly, and I would be perfectly willing to go along with a houserule allowing 35 zombies if my opponent wanted to field them, unless they actually tried to argue that this is allowed by RAW.

Emp. wrote:
To respond to your statements....boy I wish I was.....

Look, the precedent is set in the FAQ already:

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

As in, you cannot give all these upgrades to a Nob and then elect to upgrade him to a Painboy and hope to keep it all. This is a parallel rule. There is no typo unless GW comes out and specifically says "hey, delete this part and add this to the entry."

If you´ll look back, I´ve never disputed the RAW, I just believe that 6th edition needs to be taken less literally and interporated more when instances like this one occur.

Also, I would argue the case that using another armies´FAQ to make a point is bad practice, there may be a precedent, but it´s for a different army and therefore the new army´s FAQ may change this.

Not that I´m disputing you have RAW on your side, of course.

Iranna,

I've been playing against the typhus zombie list from apocalypse regularly for a couple of years now.

I aint got no real beef with 35 man units of the little sods I've been fighting 30x2 for ages.

Thankfully they are worse slightly now.

They aint all that to be honest. So why worry.


Also just remembered this, these zombies are the only unit i've ever seen get done right in by pyrovores.

Meh, they still get FnP against it so still not great and they probably win in CC.

A friend of mine was telling me how he beat a flyer army with lots of zombies.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Exactly!

At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!

And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.

I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?

I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.

When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?

When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.

So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.

The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.

so you are arguing that there is an order of operations?

I don't see how the zombies didn't pay for the options when it's still the same unit. That unit is still purchasing the options no matter how it boils down.

You can't nominate a Chaos Cultist unit to be Plague Zombies if you don't have a Chaos Cultist to nominate in the first place. So call it what you will, but that is the basic mechanic of the rule.

How is it possibly the same unit? Once nominated they are not longer Chaos Cultists, but Chaos Cultists with specific USR's, cannot purchase options, and are called Plague Zombies. Please justify how they are the same unit.

How isn't it the same unit? Just because my name is Edward now (for instance), doesn't mean that if I decide to change my name later to Steven I'm not the same person. Its still the same unit, but with a different name and special rules.

Again you are saying there is an order of operations yet you refute that there is.

I did not follow exactly what is your point but I'd really like to understand. Could you possibly break it down in more detail for me please?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for it just tell you to nominate; there is no restriction on when you nominate, so you are perfectly free to nominate after upgrading.

Again, if you disagree please give an actual rule to counter it.

Let me first say that I would always allow a player to pay for more zombies and believe it should be FAQ'd as such. secondly I totally understand where you and others are coming from with the specification of nomination.

However your request to counter with a rule citation requires a rule citation to counter first. You asking for a counter to your interpretation of a procedure not directly listed anywhere. As it clearly states no options, and adding models is an option, you first need to come up with a viable citation to counter this. Again, I would always play it as the player can buy more models for the unit but it does not say you can or you can't. Only that you can't buy options for the unit no matter when it becomes zombie unit. If anything we should take that as if options are bought the unit can't be nominated as a plague zombie unit.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I did not follow exactly what is your point but I'd really like to understand. Could you possibly break it down in more detail for me please?

I'm guessing you were referring to my post.

A unit is a unit. Just because you change what Special Rules it has, and its name changes doesn't mean its a completely different unit when one unit becomes another and gets a different name. When you purchase the Chaos Cultists its a unit. When it becomes a Zombie unit its still the same unit, with a different name and different special rules. If it bought wargear before hand it cannot become a Plague Zombie because the unit already purchased the upgrades.

At the end of the day there is no order of operations or phases that occur during the list building phase. There is only list building as a single phase and its pretty obvious that when you nominate a unit it is during list building. It is during list building because it says Zombies cannot purchase options. You cannot purchase an option during deployment or when you swap army lists. Options can only be purchased when you make the list.

There is a lot of truth to what you said but I don't entirely agree. Regardless I think it has lots of merit. Kudos to you my friend. And thanks for your timely response.

: )

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rules for it just tell you to nominate; there is no restriction on when you nominate, so you are perfectly free to nominate after upgrading.

Again, if you disagree please give an actual rule to counter it.

Let me first say that I would always allow a player to pay for more zombies and believe it should be FAQ'd as such. secondly I totally understand where you and others are coming from with the specification of nomination.

However your request to counter with a rule citation requires a rule citation to counter first. You asking for a counter to your interpretation of a procedure not directly listed anywhere. As it clearly states no options, and adding models is an option, you first need to come up with a viable citation to counter this. Again, I would always play it as the player can buy more models for the unit but it does not say you can or you can't. Only that you can't buy options for the unit no matter when it becomes zombie unit. If anything we should take that as if options are bought the unit can't be nominated as a plague zombie unit.

It states Plague Zombies cannot take any options.

I upgrade to PZ after taking options. The PZ never took any options, only Chaos Cultists did. And as we know, PZ are Chaos Cultists WITH {} , meaning they are not Chaos Cultists

This exac tly follows the rules, as Typhus is not required to nominate a unit until during the game, if he wishes - well after any options have been made by the Chaos CUltists unit

So, again - there are rules, and Ive used them. You have to prove that you cannot do this, which requires showing either:

Plague Zombies ARE Chaos Cultists, exactly., Not Chaos Cultists "with"

OR

Typhus requires you to nominate a unit prior to the Chaos Cultists being allowed to take any options

No it says plage zombies are cultists and cannot take any options. That is different to plague zombies are cultists and plague zombies cannot take any options. The rules are that zombies are cultists that get x but cannot take y. They are called cultists in the same sentence that lists the bonus and penalties. You agree they are cultists with x but you fail to see that they are also chaso cultists without y.

Where does it say that he is not required to nominate until during the game? That is a clear case of "well the rules don't say I can't".

Where does it say he is required to nominate during list building?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This exac tly follows the rules, as Typhus is not required to nominate a unit until during the game, if he wishes - well after any options have been made by the Chaos CUltists unit

You would have to show the rule that allows you to purchase options during a game for this logic to work.

Minx wrote:
Where does it say he is required to nominate during list building?

By using the word purchase its implied. You can't purchase during the game and It states you nominate, they get X and cannot purchase options. Hence, this is all during list building.

They would not add a rule saying you cannot do something if you could never do it to begin with. Use your noggin.

Emp. wrote:

Minx wrote:
Where does it say he is required to nominate during list building?

By using the word purchase its implied. You can't purchase during the game and It states you nominate, they get X and cannot purchase options. Hence, this is all during list building.

They would not add a rule saying you cannot do something if you could never do it to begin with. Use your noggin.

They would include such an additional rule if the nomination can happen during list building AND at any other time. So, no it is not implied. Try again.

Besides, why didn't they restrict the kind of cultist unit that can be nominated as plague zombies in the first line of the rule instead of allowing any cultist unit.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This exac tly follows the rules, as Typhus is not required to nominate a unit until during the game, if he wishes - well after any options have been made by the Chaos CUltists unit

You would have to show the rule that allows you to purchase options during a game for this logic to work.

Not at all, false equivalence fallacy there

Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.

Try again without making a fallacious argument. Find a rule stating either of my two requirements for my nomination to not suceed

LoB - dont ignore rules, PZ are NOT Chaos Cultists, they are CHaos Cultists WITH {USR}, meaning they are not the same unit at all.

Sorry what do you mean? If it can happen at either time why mention purchasing at all?

They limited it in the 2nd line and limited their wargear in the 3rd.

Minx wrote:

They would include such an additional rule if the nomination can happen during list building AND at any other time. So, no it is not implied. Try again.

Besides, why didn't they restrict the kind of cultist unit that can be nominated as plague zombies in the first line of the rule instead of allowing any cultist unit.

(A) Which they did not include therefore it is at one and only time. So thank you for the backhanded comment but you only helped support my point.

(B) Because there is only one kind of cultist unit without options. No options and all cultists units are identical. Any just opens up the door to more than one. Example; if I have three cultist units, any of the three can become plagues but not does mean they all have to.

Emp. wrote:

Minx wrote:

Emp. wrote:

Minx wrote:Where does it say he is required to nominate during list building?

By using the word purchase its implied. You can't purchase during the game and It states you nominate, they get X and cannot purchase options. Hence, this is all during list building.

They would not add a rule saying you cannot do something if you could never do it to begin with. Use your noggin.

They would include such an additional rule if the nomination can happen during list building AND at any other time. So, no it is not implied. Try again.

(A) Which they did not include therefore it is at one and only time. So thank you for the backhanded comment but you only helped support my point.

Apparently you have misunderstood what i meant. I was referring to the no-purchase rule that you mentioned as the essential part of your argument.

Edit: They did not specify a time when nominations are meant to happen. In case it happens during list building the additional no-purchase rule regulates zombie upgrades.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.

Then show me any other unit anywhere that can "purchase options" outside of the list building. Because that might be handy to bank some points in case a unit might need a melta or two. It is stated that they cannot purchase options after they are nominated.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.

Then show me any other unit anywhere that can "purchase options" outside of the list building. Because that might be handy to bank some points in case a unit might need a melta or two. It is stated that they cannot purchase options after they are nominated.

Take 2 named SM HQ's ones that replace Combat Tactics IIRC with something else. Say Stubborn, or TL melts/Flamers.

You don't choose this at list building

Yes, and?

How does that *definititvely* fix the only time when nomination can occur?

Oh, thats right, it doesnt. It just means that IF you choose to nominate during list building you cannot purchase any options.

Now find a rule saying nomination can ONLY occur during list building. Oh wait, no such rule exists, and you are mixing up a restriciton on purchasing options for a restriction on nomination, and making up rules out of thin air

I just want to say that this thread has turned brilliant.

Bravo to all involved.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.

Then show me any other unit anywhere that can "purchase options" outside of the list building. Because that might be handy to bank some points in case a unit might need a melta or two. It is stated that they cannot purchase options after they are nominated.

Take 2 named SM HQ's ones that replace Combat Tactics IIRC with something else. Say Stubborn, or TL melts/Flamers.

You don't choose this at list building

Really, how many points does that cost ?

How does that *definititvely* fix the only time when nomination can occur?

Oh, thats right, it doesnt. It just means that IF you choose to nominate during list building you cannot purchase any options.

Now find a rule saying nomination can ONLY occur during list building. Oh wait, no such rule exists, and you are mixing up a restriciton on purchasing options for a restriction on nomination, and making up rules out of thin air

No, your just breaking apart a rule to try to create a loophole. The rule is written sequentially. 1. Nominate a unit. 2. That unit cannot purchase upgrades. (when are upgrades purchased?).

Odd, thats you just making rules up

So, have you found a rule restricting when you can nominate? Because I've asked quite a few times now, and you keep avoiding actually answering.

Nominating doesnt cost anything either, so you still seem to have failed to produce a non-fallacious argument that doesnt rely on anything but very vague implication

So, have you found a rule restricting when you can nominate? Because I've asked quite a few times now, and you keep avoiding actually answering.

What part of sequential didnt you understand? You obviously buy options during list building and nomination comes before then.

1. Cultists are nominated to become Zombies.
2. Zombies cannot purchase upgrades.
3. Upgrades are purchased at list building.

If you can show me any single example of the ability to purchase an upgrade after the game has begun then you might have an argument. Until then your just avoiding the issue and double talking.