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Until they aren't running around and just sitting in cover to have a 6+4++5+++...

On the other hand you can make 35 cultists fearless with the icon for 25 points. No where that I can find does it say that if you have MoN you can't take the Icon of vengeance as a side note. Of course MoN in this case is 70 pts!

If you really want 35 fearless, hatred, feel no pain, init 4 cultist with guns... just get the Icon of Slaanesh and a Dark Apostle.

I would love for them to be able to take the 35 per unit, I already have over a hundred or so of them. Yay Vampire Counts.

Frankly you might have something here with order of operations, regardless of nominating but simply that you can purchase the cultists before purchasing Typhus. It is clearly states that there is an order of operations when applied to "purchasing" models, no where does it state that you must start with the HQ.

It's actually not ignoring the rule, it's an order of operations loophole that GW itself opened up. We cannot judge their intent into the CSM codex until they FAQ it one way or another. They have already ruled on a similar choice, and they have said that the Nob is able to exchange his Choppa for a Klaw before every model giving up their Choppa/Slugga for a shoota. If a Cultist unit buys the upgrades and then Typhus is added in, did Plague zombies buy the upgrades or did the Cultists buy the upgrades? The answer would be, the cultists did. While it is a useless endeavor to buy the weapons when they are cultists because the zombies cannot use them, it is in the end not the zombies that bought the upgrades but the cultists. Either way I feel when GW has already given a ruling to a similar situation it's most fair to apply the ruling from the similar situation to the current one.
-Lone Dragoon

This Nob / Klaw / Shoota example you're referring to simply has no bearing on the scenario at issue here. Unlike with Plague Zombies, there is no rule in the Ork codex that specifically says "Nobs cannot purchase Powerklaws".

Now, let's imagine for a second that there was such a rule in the ork codex. If there were, the order in which you made your selections would be completely irrelevant - if you ended up with a Nob with a PowerKlaw, you'd be breaking the rules.

Plague Zombies do have a rule that specifically prohibits Plague Zombies from taking any options. No matter what order you do things in, if you end up with a unit of Plague Zombies which has taken any options, you've violated the rule.

Besides, would it be so bad to see Plague zombies running around with the MoN? They still die quite a bit faster than marines, and even Necron immortals and warriors.
-Lone Dragoon

Arguing that your interpretation is correct because of perceived game balance issues is entirely unpersuasive.

While it plainly doesn't make sense as many of GWs rules consider this. This is coming from pure logic, (as in the philosophy and science of logic) using English instead of proper symbols.

buy cultist
try to purchase 25 cultists
can cultist buy options? yes then purchase them else don't purchase
cultists now have 35
Buy 3 heavy stubbers
can cultist buy options? yes then purchase them else don't purchase
unit is now armed with 3 heavy stubbers.
buy typhus
nominate unit of 35 cultists
Any guns cultists have cannot be used, except for clubbing.
Heavy stubbers are removed and can only be used for klobbering.
They are armed with a single close combat weapon. (someone else can look up if MoN would be considered an armament)
Cultists try to purchase heavy stubbers again
can cultist buy options? yes then purchase them else don't purchase.
Purchase cannot happen, no guns are armed

Please tell me where it says if previous options were bought unit becomes illegal. There is no check that looks at previous options other them armaments. more models are options but not armaments.

Having said that, feel free to field 420 zombies, Griffon tanks are gonna be fun. Depending if a model is "armed' with war gear which i do believe it is.

 Red Comet wrote:

 Beerfiend wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.

"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"

And this is the reason we are even discussing this right now. Everyone thinks they know what GW and Phil Kelly intended. I find everyone saying, "BUT THAT'S NOT HOW GW INTENDED IT" ludicrous, because the rule is clear. Its not ambiguous at all.

No one is even saying that .. We understand that the rule is written clearly, and not "ambiguous" as you seem to keep mentioning but missing the point here..

There is no dispute about the rule's current clearness, however it IS very likely an oversight, and folks are hoping that GW aknowledges it as a mistake, and it gets FAQed. Things don't HAVE to be written unclearly to be an oversight ..

Ludicrous? Time to lighten up and stop reading so much into what people are saying >.>

Your post is hilarious because you agree with what I say, but then say I'm looking too much into what people are saying.

Really? .. I'm agreeing with your statements of "It's not a typo, I can't imagine how anyone could possibly think that just because they WANT MOAR ZOMBIES" ?? And imagine that .. people wanting hordes of zombies instead of some nonsensical, small, zombie bingo club.

And I'm agreeing with your statements of "The fact that it's clear and unambiguous like the rest of the book means that it cannot possibly be a mistake or oversight" ?? Once again I'll say it .. just because something is "clearly written" (which as folks are now pointing out that it's not) doesn't mean it's impossible to be an oversight. <---- How is that statement agreeing with yours in any way, shape, or form? You have said nothing of the like, no matter how you look at it.

For all you know it IS an oversight, how can you argue that you know what GW/Kelly intended too, and everyone else is "ludicrous" for thinking otherwise, without being hypocritical? For all we know as well, it's not an oversight, but to everyone but you it's obvious that it is .. However, we're not shooting you down for stating your opinion. The manner in which you state it though, is another story.

 Red Comet wrote:
All of this rationalization people are coming up with for allowing options to be purchased before they become zombies is almost as ridiculous as the people who argued that there was an order of operations for Master crafting a weapon and that decided if it was a Unique Weapon or not.

Actually, despite my previous posts, I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread now, in regards to the order of operations and how it's worded using plurals vs singular. I don't believe it's reason enough without confirmation from GW .. but it's still an argument that holds water, which is exactly what you asked for, is it not? But oh wait, it doesn't really hold any water, because YOU say everything is ridiculous, hilarious, and ludicrous.

Get off your high horse mate, and stop acting like hot **** who's opinion everyone who plays the hobby should care about above all else. Because that's exactly how you're coming off.

It's common English to use plurals in the singular when talking generically, especially when describing something of indeterminate gender and number, such as a horde of zombies.

The actual codex says;

Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2012) Page 61 wrote:Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain, and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options

As such, RAW actually states no individual Plague Zombie may purchase additional options. Adding more zombies to the unit would not be a purchase made by or affecting an individual model, therefore the option to increase the size of the unit is not governed by this rule.

Alternatively you could argue that the only options the unit must purchase are Marks of Chaos. As none of the other options specify a purchase they can all be performed, however the rules for zombies would render any of these additional options obsolete and as such would be a waste of points.

Edit: In addition to this the previous incarnation of these rules allowed for units of 10-30 so logic would suggest this was what they intended.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180078_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Plague_of_Zombies.pdf

Well I for one am certainly going to be taking 35 strong zombie cultist units with Typhus. I'm also giving Ahriman powers from the Divination table and will be upgrading my Night Lord CSM squad to have Night Vision & Fear for +1 pts per model. Sure, none of those options are technically legal according to the RAW, but we all know they were just an oversight.

I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread now, in regards to the order of operations and how it's worded using plurals vs singular. I don't believe it's reason enough without confirmation from GW .. but it's still an argument that holds water
-Beerfiend

Those arguments hold about as much water as a cracked colander. No matter what order you operate in, if you end up with a unit of plague zombies which has taken options, you have violated the plague zombies rule and have an invalid unit. And there's absolutely no language in the rule to suggest it is only referring to "individual" plague zombies. Both arguments are wishful thinking.

RAW actually states no individual Plague Zombie may purchase additional options.
-Kitkat

That is absolutely not what the rule says. The word "individual" is nowhere to be found in the language of the rule itself, nor is it implied by the "common english" as you've suggested. The language of the rule does not support your argument. As I've said before, the best evidence of GW's intent is the language of the rules they write. If GW had meant "no individual zombie" they would have said "no individual zombie". They didn't.

the previous incarnation of these rules allowed for units of 10-30 so logic would suggest this was what they intended.
-Kitkat

This is a creative argument, but unfortunately an old Apocalypse CSM datasheet has no bearing on a discussion of the rule as it is written in the new CSM codex. You could just as easily argue that because zombies in the plague zombie datasheet unit wounded on 4+ and had a chance to bring fallen opponents back from the dead, the new CSM zombies should, too. Neither argument is persuasive.

No matter what order you do things in, you still end up with a unit of Plague Zombies that have purchased Options from their Options entry, which they are prohibited from.

"Typhus has rules about armaments but not a limit on options."

That is exactly what he has. A limit on Options, as you can't have any.at all for units that are nominated as Plague Zombies.

 GiantKiller wrote:

RAW actually states no individual Plague Zombie may purchase additional options.
-Kitkat

That is absolutely not what the rule says. The word "individual" is nowhere to be found in the language of the rule itself, nor is it implied by the "common english" as you've suggested. The language of the rule does not support your argument. As I've said before, the best evidence of GW's intent is the language of the rules they write. If GW had meant "no individual zombie" they would have said "no individual zombie". They didn't.

If GW had specified individual zombie we'd be having the same pedantic discussion about whether or not they could take Marks. Also the common use ,in the English language, of using plurals in the singular when talking generically does support my agument.

Example;
Chavs are youths that have the bling, vicky pollard, and asbo special rules, and cannot purchase options.

As you can see, this uses plurals to describe the attributes of an indivdual chav. This is my interpretation of what's written and I'm going to stick with it but I understand if you disagree and I have no problem with that. I do however still think that my argument is valid.

To take this even further, I went to the Friar Lane store in Notts to ask one of the playtesters mentioned on P.2 of the codex his perspective. His opinion was that they could be upgraded to 35, cosidering he playtested the codex I am willing to take his definition.

Sticking to 10 man plague zombie units. Buying more guys is an option.

In all seriousness, can someone explain why it is certain that increasing the unit size is considered an "upgrade" (which would therefore be explicitly forbidden)?

 Deuce11 wrote:
In all seriousness, can someone explain why it is certain that increasing the unit size is considered an "upgrade" (which would therefore be explicitly forbidden)?

They are forbidden from purchasing options, not upgrades. If it said upgrades, then you could field 35 zombies.

Of course, on a side note if someone did field units of 35 Zombies, I would be all "Sweet, zombie Jesus, it's a zombie horde!" and make sure all my models are equipped with a Shotgun* and chainsaw.

*Preferred model being the twelve-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about a hundred and nine, ninety five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart. You got that?

Look at lots of BA units. The options for the unit include adding other members of the squad. DC says may take up to 27 additional DC men.

Tjolle79 wrote:
No matter what order you do things in, you still end up with a unit of Plague Zombies that have purchased Options from their Options entry, which they are prohibited from.

"Typhus has rules about armaments but not a limit on options."

That is exactly what he has. A limit on Options, as you can't have any.at all for units that are nominated as Plague Zombies.

Please quote the context when quoting me.
He does not not check options bought prior to nomination. He does not say having previously bough an option is illegal. He only has rules that talk about previously owned weapons, and that you may not buy options. If you buy before you nominate then you aren't buying them after the rule comes into play.

Was the unit a unit of zombies when it got the upgrades?

If no, then the unit is legal.

 Beerfiend wrote:


Really? .. I'm agreeing with your statements of "It's not a typo, I can't imagine how anyone could possibly think that just because they WANT MOAR ZOMBIES" ?? And imagine that .. people wanting hordes of zombies instead of some nonsensical, small, zombie bingo club.

You are agreeing because you said it yourself that people simply are hoping for it to be an oversight. There is no proof that it is or isn't.

And I'm agreeing with your statements of "The fact that it's clear and unambiguous like the rest of the book means that it cannot possibly be a mistake or oversight" ?? Once again I'll say it .. just because something is "clearly written" (which as folks are now pointing out that it's not) doesn't mean it's impossible to be an oversight. <---- How is that statement agreeing with yours in any way, shape, or form? You have said nothing of the like, no matter how you look at it.

What I said was that the rule was clear and everyone is acting as if it has to be an oversight when there is no proof that it goes either way. I'm pointing out that people need to accept how the book is written. If GW wants to FAQ it, I'm all for it. It'd be cool to see it on the board, but right now its not legally possible in a W40k Chaos Space Marines list.

For all you know it IS an oversight, how can you argue that you know what GW/Kelly intended too, and everyone else is "ludicrous" for thinking otherwise, without being hypocritical? For all we know as well, it's not an oversight, but to everyone but you it's obvious that it is .. However, we're not shooting you down for stating your opinion. The manner in which you state it though, is another story.

I never said that I knew and if I did sorry. I was probably laughing too hard at the time that this is even being discussed, because there is no ruling to be made, because its clear. No one knows the intent of GW or Kelly, but it is clear.

Actually, despite my previous posts, I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread now, in regards to the order of operations and how it's worded using plurals vs singular. I don't believe it's reason enough without confirmation from GW .. but it's still an argument that holds water, which is exactly what you asked for, is it not? But oh wait, it doesn't really hold any water, because YOU say everything is ridiculous, hilarious, and ludicrous.

Get off your high horse mate, and stop acting like hot **** who's opinion everyone who plays the hobby should care about above all else. Because that's exactly how you're coming off.

A post right below the one you made last quotes the rule. Zombie Cultists can't take options period. Taking more models in a unit is an option for the unit so it cannot be done. There is no order of operations here even though people want to believe there is. I brought up the example with Master Crafting to point out how far some people will go to justify their own ambiguous view of a rule. This rule isn't ambiguous in any way. The only reason this thread exists is because people want to have more than 10 Zombies and GW used the word options to refer to unit size. People normally don't think of unit size as an option even though technically it is. There is no ruling that can be made at the moment and there is no call to make, because right now all we have is black and white that tells us what a Zombie unit consists of.

I personally don't care if someone plays against me with 35 zombies in a friendly game, but in a tournament I wouldn't accept this behavior because its clearly against the rules and the way a friendly game and a tournament game go about are very different.

I don't see why you are telling me to get off a high horse when you tell me I look too much into this rule. Look at all of the other posts. My answer and argument is probably one of the most simplistic because it is that simple. Its pretty obvious what is written in black and white and that's what we follow.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Was the unit a unit of zombies when it got the upgrades?

If no, then the unit is legal.

No that's not how it works, the way it works is "does the unit of zombies have upgrades at the time you declare your list final" as evidenced by my earlier example of the Pain Boy in a Nob unit.

If what you were saying was true, then the relative rules would be "Was the model a painboy when he bought his Bosspole, if no then the model is legal" however, as we know, that model is not legal, regardless of timing pedantry. Your army can cease to be legal at any point in time when you create an illegal combination of upgrades.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Was the unit a unit of zombies when it got the upgrades?

If no, then the unit is legal.

No that's not how it works, the way it works is "does the unit of zombies have upgrades at the time you declare your list final" as evidenced by my earlier example of the Pain Boy in a Nob unit.

If what you were saying was true, then the relative rules would be "Was the model a painboy when he bought his Bosspole, if no then the model is legal" however, as we know, that model is not legal, regardless of timing pedantry. Your army can cease to be legal at any point in time when you create an illegal combination of upgrades.

Exaclty. If you try to start your game with 35 plague zombies you have clearly made purchases from the Options entry for your Cultists, which you clearly can not according to the rules. Thus you've created an illegal entry.

However much you might want it. RAW its solid.

The rule is that you "cannot buy Options". Now which Options would that be? Why, those Options listed in the Army list entry.

I read the first page of this thread and could not bring myself to read any further.

I would just like to break this down clearly.

35 FNP, Fearless, scoring zombies at the points cost stated is absolutely and totally ridonculous. They would be the best troop choice in game and would break the codex.

10 Model limit is clearly, 100 % RAW. RAI arguments are pointless at this stage.

If this does get FAQ'd (which it will not), I will be taking 150 of them backed up with nasty hammer units. Then I will /cry as no-one will play the army

I will. All day every day.

 WingWong wrote:
I read the first page of this thread and could not bring myself to read any further.

I would just like to break this down clearly.

35 FNP, Fearless, scoring zombies at the points cost stated is absolutely and totally ridonculous. They would be the best troop choice in game and would break the codex.

10 Model limit is clearly, 100 % RAW. RAI arguments are pointless at this stage.

If this does get FAQ'd (which it will not), I will be taking 150 of them backed up with nasty hammer units. Then I will /cry as no-one will play the army

Break the codex? lol
How are 3S 3T 1A units with a FnP vs str 5 or below game breaking? They are just a tarpit, nothing more.

Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?

Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.

 juraigamer wrote:
Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?

Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.

Most likely because they want to field hordes of zombies and are oh so disappointed that they can't, so they're griping for straws, bending words, comparing singular vs plural wording and by any means necessary try to bend the rules to be able to field them.

We have read and apply an order of operations. He doesn't go back in time and check for options just changes what they are "armed" with.

As far as game breaking... lol what isn't st 6 these days to prevents the FNP?
and fearless. throw a Dark Apostle or a Chaos lord in there.

For everyone that plays RAI, there isn't a problem. It's a fuffy army and dies to st 6 shots and blasts. Seems like DE might have a problem poisoning a zombie but other then that most dex's can take it out without much problem. (power mauls for the win)
First turn I will fire at anything other then them, second turn they still are not within charge change, third turn drop blasts on them. they die.
For everyone that plays RAW... There are good arguments both ways. Can a Pain Boy take a schoota/rokkit kombie? Another argument could be based on wording where is states exactly what a pain boy is, and is armed with. Pg 38.

Order of operations would be like this.
buy nobs,
buy boss pull for nob A
upgrade nob A to painboy
painboy has the following wargear..
Doks Tools, Urty Syringe.. (but no boss pull)

This is a very important find because this means that you cannot have marks for plague zombies. T4 FNP is so much better then T3 FNP.
As a side note, for the people that play RAW, I am assuming you are playing in tournaments. Regardless of what you feel, It's the TO that will decide what happens.
I would check with the TO first.

Typhus' Plague Zombies rule specifically states:

"Any Chaos Cultist units...in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies. Plague Zombies are...and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon - any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!"

Plague Zombies rule seems to take effect after you have already purchased the unit. Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. Chaos Cultists can purchase options. Why would there be the clarifying statement of "any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death" if you cannot have guns in the unit any way? I think it was worded like this because the Cultists may purchase heavy stubbers or flamers if you are so inclined, but it would end up being a waste of points because they only use their guns to club people to death and cannot fire them. You could purchase a flamer or shotgun if you want, but it would be a waste of points. It doesn't say "The squad is limited to 10 men" it says "Plague Zombies...cannot purchase options". Therefore, the Cultists may purchase men up to the total of 35, but Zombies (a separate entity from Cultists) cannot once they have been made Zombies.

Cultists purchase options -> Cultists are nominated by Typhus as Plague Zombies -> Did you buy a heavy stubber? Sucks for you, you can't use it but you still paid for it -> Plague Zombies cannot buy anything else.

I dont see a problem, you have to buy cultists FIRST before you nominate a cultist unit to transform into zombies, so size can be changed before transforming them. you cant nominate a unit that you havent chosen first. thats how my local group plays at my store.

 juraigamer wrote:
Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?

Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.

Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...

Minx wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?

Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.

Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...

Is it? It doesn't look to be.
If it says no options and the codex is written anything like the BA codex then you are out of luck with that assertion.

Don't have an opinion on legality either way, but taking Jervis Johnson's article in the latest WD on "limiting limitations" at face value, I'd be willing to bet at least 50 cents that it'll be FAQd to allow 35.