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I figure either would move a weapon from Assault to Rapid Fire?

I like the idea of bolters being assault 2, but what about bolt pistols then? Bolt pistols would become completely useless (for shooting). Though this all might balance out if you allowed tacticals to take chainswords in addition for 1 or 2 ppm and gave bolters to assault squad for free or 1 ppm. I still tend to think tacticals should get to choose up to 2 specials or heavy weapons though. As far as rhinos I could live with them being 10 points more if tacs get a price drop. I usually dont use drop pods. I have had too many bad experiences with them going against tau players. Which 40% of the players in my area have a tau army. I havent had a chance to go up against tau since release of 7th though. My FLGS closed it's doors, so it has been quite difficult to get in games to test alternate rules. The only player I have been able to play against on semi regular basis is a necron player. I have learned not to field tacticals especially against him. They just get chewed up no matter what I do with them (if he even bothers to deal with them). The only use I have found for tacticals is to throw them into a melee to get chewed up in hopes of keeping my opponents unit tied in combat for a round.

Wouldn't that just make them twice as good against things they already beat, and twice as good at things they are useless for?

Does it really fix anything?

Relentless literally fixes every problem marines have.

It fixes damage output which is agreeably to weak for their points. It allows them to use their multipurpose stats without gimping their firepower.

Other short ranged troops have similar mechanisms to assist the unit in it's short ranged roll and it doesn't break the game. Guardians have relentless platforms and assualt weapons. Ork boys weapons are all assault weapons - IG vets can take 3 assault weapons. Please do not mention combat squads ether...it's an almost useless ability.

But Guardian heavy weapons cost more, and are generally 12" shorter range than Imperial versions...

Bharring wrote:
But Guardian heavy weapons cost more, and are generally 12" shorter range than Imperial versions...

We are talking about fundamental problems. Not point cost of weapons here. I'm sure a 5 point hike on all heavys would be an acceptable change for PA if relentless became standard. Theres nothing wrong with the range of eldar weapons. They typically have higher rates of fire than imperial weapons too.

Plus you know eldar have battle focus so that kinda helps with their range.

 NorseSig wrote:
I like the idea of bolters being assault 2, but what about bolt pistols then? Bolt pistols would become completely useless (for shooting). Though this all might balance out if you allowed tacticals to take chainswords in addition for 1 or 2 ppm and gave bolters to assault squad for free or 1 ppm. I still tend to think tacticals should get to choose up to 2 specials or heavy weapons though. As far as rhinos I could live with them being 10 points more if tacs get a price drop. I usually dont use drop pods. I have had too many bad experiences with them going against tau players. Which 40% of the players in my area have a tau army. I havent had a chance to go up against tau since release of 7th though. My FLGS closed it's doors, so it has been quite difficult to get in games to test alternate rules. The only player I have been able to play against on semi regular basis is a necron player. I have learned not to field tacticals especially against him. They just get chewed up no matter what I do with them (if he even bothers to deal with them). The only use I have found for tacticals is to throw them into a melee to get chewed up in hopes of keeping my opponents unit tied in combat for a round.

Pistols are mostly useless on a battlefield anyway. I don't care what happens to the bolt pistol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't that just make them twice as good against things they already beat, and twice as good at things they are useless for?

Does it really fix anything?

Essentially.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
But Guardian heavy weapons cost more, and are generally 12" shorter range than Imperial versions...

True, but scatter lasers are amazeballs. The scatterlaser is better than any Imperial heavy. By a long, long margin. Bright lances are a bit meh.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well you did call it wacky hence my reply?

The Current Codex says:

Power armour: Constructed from thick ceramite plates, the power armour worn by the Adepta Sororitas is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced support systems and strength enhancing abilities, for the Sisters of Battle do not possess a Space Marine’s ability to interface directly with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few forces outside of the Adeptus Astartes to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to use its abilities to deadly effect

So its clear that its not quite as effective in some areas and you could def argue that if you were granting Relentless than perhaps AS don't normally get that........

But then I also feel that Astartes should get more stuff and different stats but ti would mean playing with very few of them....... But also all Power Armour (or Xenos equivalents) should really get Night Vision?

But then Chaos Marines should also have "Legion or renegade Chapter Tactics" - but then arguably so should - Necron Dynasties, Eldar Craftworlds, Sororitas Orders, Guard Regiments etc etc

It's wacky because their armour is tiny. If people said that Space Marines were as strong as Warbosses it would cause an outrage because Marines are smaller. Same principle.

I agree with the rest of what you said, though.

Size isn't everything. The XV15 stealth suit is barely bigger than regular tau combat armour, yet still increases strength the the point where they can carry and fire burst cannons and fusion blasters with no negitive.

Martel732 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
I like the idea of bolters being assault 2, but what about bolt pistols then? Bolt pistols would become completely useless (for shooting). Though this all might balance out if you allowed tacticals to take chainswords in addition for 1 or 2 ppm and gave bolters to assault squad for free or 1 ppm. I still tend to think tacticals should get to choose up to 2 specials or heavy weapons though. As far as rhinos I could live with them being 10 points more if tacs get a price drop. I usually dont use drop pods. I have had too many bad experiences with them going against tau players. Which 40% of the players in my area have a tau army. I havent had a chance to go up against tau since release of 7th though. My FLGS closed it's doors, so it has been quite difficult to get in games to test alternate rules. The only player I have been able to play against on semi regular basis is a necron player. I have learned not to field tacticals especially against him. They just get chewed up no matter what I do with them (if he even bothers to deal with them). The only use I have found for tacticals is to throw them into a melee to get chewed up in hopes of keeping my opponents unit tied in combat for a round.

Pistols are mostly useless on a battlefield anyway. I don't care what happens to the bolt pistol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't that just make them twice as good against things they already beat, and twice as good at things they are useless for?

Does it really fix anything?

Essentially.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
But Guardian heavy weapons cost more, and are generally 12" shorter range than Imperial versions...

True, but scatter lasers are amazeballs. The scatterlaser is better than any Imperial heavy. By a long, long margin. Bright lances are a bit meh.

Pistols are very poorly implemented in the game right now anyways. Pistols should be allowed to be fired in close combat - not give you an additional attack with a power sword.

I've always thought you should be able to do that. You fire your pistol in place of all attacks, if you have two, you get two shots (1 with each).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I've always thought you should be able to do that. You fire your pistol in place of all attacks, if you have two, you get two shots (1 with each).

I think you should get your normal attacks and fire your pistol as well (instead of getting an extra attack with your other weapon).

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I've always thought you should be able to do that. You fire your pistol in place of all attacks, if you have two, you get two shots (1 with each).

I think you should get your normal attacks and fire your pistol as well (instead of getting an extra attack with your other weapon).

In place of an attack, or as an extra attack?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I've always thought you should be able to do that. You fire your pistol in place of all attacks, if you have two, you get two shots (1 with each).

I think you should get your normal attacks and fire your pistol as well (instead of getting an extra attack with your other weapon).

In place of an attack, or as an extra attack?

As an extra attack. But, in place of the extra attack models currently get for using a melee weapon and a pistol.

Though, perhaps if a model only has a pistol (no other melee weapons), he can only fire the pistol.

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I've always thought you should be able to do that. You fire your pistol in place of all attacks, if you have two, you get two shots (1 with each).

I think you should get your normal attacks and fire your pistol as well (instead of getting an extra attack with your other weapon).

In place of an attack, or as an extra attack?

As an extra attack. But, in place of the extra attack models currently get for using a melee weapon and a pistol.

Though, perhaps if a model only has a pistol (no other melee weapons), he can only fire the pistol.

That could work. 1 bonus attack at int 10 in the first round of combat or something with you pistols profile would be real cool too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I've always thought you should be able to do that. You fire your pistol in place of all attacks, if you have two, you get two shots (1 with each).

I think you should get your normal attacks and fire your pistol as well (instead of getting an extra attack with your other weapon).

In place of an attack, or as an extra attack?

As an extra attack. But, in place of the extra attack models currently get for using a melee weapon and a pistol.

Though, perhaps if a model only has a pistol (no other melee weapons), he can only fire the pistol.

That could work. 1 bonus attack at int 10 in the first round of combat or something with you pistols profile would be real cool too.

I like this idea too. It preserves the advantage of having a pistol without making it broken. Though maybe initiate plus 1 instead. IDK. If you changed bolt pistols you would have to chage the other pistols as well and i worry those pistols going off at Initiative 10 might be too good. The only question now would be what to do with storm bolters. maybe assault 3 or salvo 2/3. Im assuming the bolters would get assault 2 when 12 inches or less and maintain their 1 shot at 12 to 24. though I would be fine with them being assault 2 at 24 inches lol.

Alternatively, what about simply letting pistols overwatch at full BS?

That way, you can always get off a shot before combat.

It would actually make the 15pt plasma pistol, fusion pistol etc worth having

 Formosa wrote:
It would actually make the 15pt plasma pistol, fusion pistol etc worth having

Indeed.

 vipoid wrote:
Alternatively, what about simply letting pistols overwatch at full BS?

That way, you can always get off a shot before combat.

No, that's far too simple and elegant of a solution that also makes pistols worthwhile. We can't have that in 40k, it must be complicated.

 TheSilo wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Alternatively, what about simply letting pistols overwatch at full BS?

That way, you can always get off a shot before combat.

No, that's far too simple and elegant of a solution that also makes pistols worthwhile. We can't have that in 40k, it must be complicated.

Loving this for my Seraphim - two bolt pistols each

 Mr Morden wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Alternatively, what about simply letting pistols overwatch at full BS?

That way, you can always get off a shot before combat.

No, that's far too simple and elegant of a solution that also makes pistols worthwhile. We can't have that in 40k, it must be complicated.

Loving this for my Seraphim - two bolt pistols each

I think the problem with this is that there are armies where very nearly every single model has a pistol, and then there are armies where maybe one or two models in the entire book have a pistol, so you'd have to balance that out somehow, or else you're greatly buffing the overwatch of some factions, but not others.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Alternatively, what about simply letting pistols overwatch at full BS?

That way, you can always get off a shot before combat.

No, that's far too simple and elegant of a solution that also makes pistols worthwhile. We can't have that in 40k, it must be complicated.

Loving this for my Seraphim - two bolt pistols each

I think the problem with this is that there are armies where very nearly every single model has a pistol, and then there are armies where maybe one or two models in the entire book have a pistol, so you'd have to balance that out somehow, or else you're greatly buffing the overwatch of some factions, but not others.

It would mostly buff assault and elite units. And make overwatch less stupid and useless. All good things.

It's actually a nerf to units with Power Weapons, that will no longer be getting an extra attack from their pistols. It's also a nerf to anything with Furious Charge that's reliant on Bolt Pistols to get their bonus attacks. I.e. most of the half-decent MEQ assault units that aren't in Terminator Armor.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It's actually a nerf to units with Power Weapons, that will no longer be getting an extra attack from their pistols. It's also a nerf to anything with Furious Charge that's reliant on Bolt Pistols to get their bonus attacks. I.e. most of the half-decent MEQ assault units that aren't in Terminator Armor.

And that is a problem too. This just goes to show that making game changes can't be done in a vacuum. The changes you make could very well nerf or buff other units in ways that are unintended. It makes for creating a balanced game really difficult. Glad you mentioned this something else to think about. Off the top of my head the quickest solution would be to give those units an extra attack, but that might be too much.