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Tacs are terrible even for those chapters, don't kid yourself.

The answer to whether Tactical Marines are good or not should not be Librarians.

Martel732 wrote:
Tacs are terrible even for those chapters, don't kid yourself.

ehhhh. a Ultra list with calgar can give drop pod tacticals pretty decent firepower.... not great but the best out there far as SM tacticals go.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't want everything for nothing.

It's a fact that Tactical Marine Squads currently are on the low end of points efficiency. Doesn't it make sense to make them better to adjust this?

We should seek to nerf/buff every unit until they become average.

Hell, take this as an example:

Give Marines an armour save reroll, but make the reroll 6+ instead of 3+.

A tiny change that's a tiny buff to survivability, but it is a step in the right direction.

Maybe even 5+, though that would take some testing and mathhammering.

The D6 system is non-ideal and limited, but it's not so limited as to make Tacticals either bad or OP no matter what you do.

Tactical squads are only bad if you ignore the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, or Iron Hands chapter tactics in which case you've deliberately chosen a chapter that doesn't focus on tactical marines.

Librarians are available for 65 points, you can stick him in with a squad and confer any of the biomancy, telekinesis, or telepathy bonuses. Or you can pull primaris psykers from IG for 50 points.

We don't need more re-rolls to slow down the game, especially not on every troops choice in half the armies.

I play Iron Hands the 6+ FNP isn't very good. Especially on Tacticals. It takes at least a 5+ fnp for it to become a decent ability. And putting a hq or some other independent character with a tactical squad to make it decent is really a poor and usually not that bright idea. Tacticals shouldn't just be decent in two armies. I think the way to go to fix tacticals with the current rules set without too many changes would be a points drop combined with allowing up to two heavy weapons or special weapons and access to chainswords for 2pts per model. Another option would be to do this idea and move all bikes except attack bike units (the up to 3 bikes), assault marines and devastators into the troops section The stormraven would move into fast attack spot. When I envision tacticals I see a fairly mobile unit that can shoot and do melee but dont really excel at any of those, a jack of all trades with maybe some slight customization/role tailoring. I think assault marines should get up to 4 specials and be able to take grav pistols and get hit and run. Devastators should get split fire imo.

Unlike in role-playing games, you do not normally grow exponentially stronger or more bullet-proof as you become more experienced in real life, and there is no reason whatsoever for Lorgan Grimnar to be stronger or more resistent to trauma than a Blood Claw.

If anything, his age should make him weaker.

 raiden wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tacs are terrible even for those chapters, don't kid yourself.

ehhhh. a Ultra list with calgar can give drop pod tacticals pretty decent firepower.... not great but the best out there far as SM tacticals go.

That means terrible.

Alcibiades wrote:
Unlike in role-playing games, you do not normally grow exponentially stronger or more bullet-proof as you become more experienced in real life, and there is no reason whatsoever for Lorgan Grimnar to be stronger or more resistent to trauma than a Blood Claw.

If anything, his age should make him weaker.

Actually, with Space Wolves, there's every reason for the Great Wolf to be stronger and more resilient than a Blood Claw. He's had 600+ years for the unstable Canis Helix in his gene-seed to mature, turning his hair white, causing his fangs to grow long and sharp, strengthening his muscles, reinforcing his bones, fully bringing out the lupine heritage of Leman Egad.

Also, I don't believe Space Marines really suffer the depredations of old age, being functionally immortal. Even with SW, the reason the hair goes gray is because of a mutation in their gene-seed, not old age.

In all seriousness, though, I think increases in things like strength and toughness can be representative of greater skill in using natural abilities just as easily as an increase in natural ability (eg a model has a higher toughness because they've seen more combat and learned to shrug off wounds younger warriors might not be able to, things like that)

I do like the idea of increasing options as a way to add value. For Tac squads, giving them the option to take up to 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons makes sense.

I would also support reducing the cost of the vet sgt to 5 points or 0. It's silly that an IG sgt has 2 attacks but a marine sgt has 1.

I still disagree with the fundamental assertion that Tac squads are only decent in two armies. Each of the prime chapters has crazy good usrs: furious charge, counter attack, and stubborn. IFists basically have BS 5 with their bolters.

The way I see things , Long Fangs, devastators,havocs should be the general infantry not tactical squads.

I have always felt that a pair of special or heavy was never enough. Combat squad? I am paying 75 pts for 4 ablative wounds per special/ heavygun that already cost 10-20pts.

Combine long fangs split fire and combat squad, now you can shoot 4 different targets with the 2x5 man team. Now that is flexibility!

Chaos Chosen are garbage compared to Havoc. Havoc can take 4 special or heavy and cost 5 pts less! And they can buy ccw!

There won't be any need for sternguard, blood claws, chosen, assault/raptor ( if given jump pack options) and all sorts of silly marines.

 TheSilo wrote:
You can take apothecaries or choose the Iron Hands chapter tactics, you don't just get buffs and buffs for free. These options all exist, you just want them for nothing.

Wait, there's an Apothecary option for Tactical Marines? What'd I miss?

Its's just for the sake of the game. It would be overpowered to have a storm of heavy/rapid fire/salvo weapons firing upon you and then having a group of marines, who are probably better in CC than you, charging at your face. Another thing that would reflect the fluff better would be to give plague marines and nurgle daemons immunity to poison. Although this reflects the fluff, I could just run a nurgle daemon army allied with nurgle CSM and my friend's Dark Eldar would be good as dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
You can take apothecaries or choose the Iron Hands chapter tactics, you don't just get buffs and buffs for free. These options all exist, you just want them for nothing.

Wait, there's an Apothecary option for Tactical Marines? What'd I miss?

Well, they have to be using Red Scorpions chapter tactics. Tactical Marines can swap their sergeant for an apothecary for free and everyone else has to upgrade to a veteran sergeant before doing it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
^ this. I am just trying to give an idea to make marines a bit more fluffy, with a bit more oopmh, and a bit more versatile.

Why Marines? Why nobody else? If we're going to go by lore why don't the Eldar get to pick every single random pregame die roll (for an extreme)?

eldar have rending weapons on almost all of their infantry (representing the lore of the monofiliment ammo used), they can run AND shoot. (representing there agility and swiftness).

tau have str5 guns, ap4, 30" range. representing their advanced technology. why do marines get nothing?

T4? The best infantry armour in the game? Storm Shields? Multirole squads? 24" range small arms? Sternguard? AV14? A broad selection of weapons with ranges longer than 36"? Grav weapons? Drop Pods? Sicarians? Nothing?

This is really starting to sound like a case of the grass being greener in the next guy's Codex.

Im assuming you are talking about the Ork codex, cause were green and our codex is soo great.

 TheSilo wrote:
I do like the idea of increasing options as a way to add value. For Tac squads, giving them the option to take up to 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons makes sense.

I would also support reducing the cost of the vet sgt to 5 points or 0. It's silly that an IG sgt has 2 attacks but a marine sgt has 1.

I still disagree with the fundamental assertion that Tac squads are only decent in two armies. Each of the prime chapters has crazy good usrs: furious charge, counter attack, and stubborn. IFists basically have BS 5 with their bolters.

I disagree as well; I say they are decent in zero armies.

 TheSilo wrote:
I do like the idea of increasing options as a way to add value. For Tac squads, giving them the option to take up to 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons makes sense.

I would also support reducing the cost of the vet sgt to 5 points or 0. It's silly that an IG sgt has 2 attacks but a marine sgt has 1.

I still disagree with the fundamental assertion that Tac squads are only decent in two armies. Each of the prime chapters has crazy good usrs: furious charge, counter attack, and stubborn. IFists basically have BS 5 with their bolters.

I think the problem with the sergeants isn't that they are over priced per say (they are about 1 pt to expensive imo along with the rest of the unit, ie 13ppm feels like where they should be), but that most of the codex space marine upgrade options are. 10pts for a one shot weapon that isn't a hunter killer missle? try 5 points. Power weapons should be 10points imo, power fists 20, thunder hammer 25, lightning claws are good at 15. Pistols should be 10 pts except for plasma that should be 5 pts. Heavy bolters should be 5 pts (and have pinning imo). plasma gun and plasma cannon should be 10pts. storm bolters are the right price but should be salvo 2/3 or 2/4. relic blades should be 20pts. Plasma would be ok at it's current prices if they instead added a second profile to them making them a str6 ap3 without gets hot or the usual str7 ap2 gets hot! chosen before the weapon is fired. I think most everything else is about right. I think with those changes and allowing chainswords for 2ppm and up to 2 heavy weapons or special weapons or a heavy and special weapon would about fix tacticals as well the majority of codex space marines as far as unit price goes. From there a person could make some tweaks to some hq, vehicle, specific unit, and independent character options/costs and I think space marines would be fixed and be far more balanced.

All tactical squad equivalents should come with 2 bolters in each hand and be able to shoot both. should Also come with 2 Pistols to shoot in assault and given 2 ccw weapons in combat. Then they be worth the 13pts

 Filch wrote:
All tactical squad equivalents should come with 2 bolters in each hand and be able to shoot both. should Also come with 2 Pistols to shoot in assault and given 2 ccw weapons in combat. Then they be worth the 13pts

I can't tell if your actually serious or if that's sarcasm.


What if we made a rule that grants slow and purposeful to the unit when they take a heavy weapon?

How about a change to ATSKNF:

"At the beginning of the game, the SM player may pick up to 5 rules in the main rulebook or any codex/supplement being used in the game. All units with ATSKNF ignore those rules for the duration of the game."

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Relentless would work, but every space marine would have to get it ( it makes no sense why tactical marines have it and not devastators). It would certainly make them a much faster army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still there are people who want space marines to stay at the level where they are and not get buffed up more

I agree - all power armor should get it. This would also be the easiest buff the could give marines because it would only effect marine codex (as opposed to buffing bolters).

The Mechanicum (in particular Engineseers), Inquisiton and Sororitas say hi and thanks

 vipoid wrote:
How about a change to ATSKNF:

"At the beginning of the game, the SM player may pick up to 5 rules in the main rulebook or any codex/supplement being used in the game. All units with ATSKNF ignore those rules for the duration of the game."

I'm not sure that you could find 5 rules that Space Marines don't already ignore.

 vipoid wrote:
How about a change to ATSKNF:

"At the beginning of the game, the SM player may pick up to 5 rules in the main rulebook or any codex/supplement being used in the game. All units with ATSKNF ignore those rules for the duration of the game."

I'll ignore rolling to hit and to wound (so I hit and wound automatically).
I'll ignore movement (so I can move 60" per turn).
I'll ignore the points limit (so I can have 4000 points compared to my opponent's 2000).
I'll ignore the force organisation chart (oh wait...)

Alcibiades wrote:
Unlike in role-playing games, you do not normally grow exponentially stronger or more bullet-proof as you become more experienced in real life, and there is no reason whatsoever for Lorgan Grimnar to be stronger or more resistent to trauma than a Blood Claw.

If anything, his age should make him weaker.

On the other hand, he's survived for so long and got so far due to him being better than others around. So, he might have been a 3-wound blood claw in the first place. Than he power-lifted a santa sleigh and went to 4 wounds.

 vipoid wrote:
How about a change to ATSKNF:

"At the beginning of the game, the SM player may pick up to 5 rules in the main rulebook or any codex/supplement being used in the game. All units with ATSKNF ignore those rules for the duration of the game."

What about csm? They're still marines, not about already buffing one of the best codex's, need to balance the weaker ones before more imperial shanagins are introduced

 total0 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
How about a change to ATSKNF:

"At the beginning of the game, the SM player may pick up to 5 rules in the main rulebook or any codex/supplement being used in the game. All units with ATSKNF ignore those rules for the duration of the game."

What about csm? They're still marines, not about already buffing one of the best codex's, need to balance the weaker ones before more imperial shanagins are introduced

...so that loyalists would be able to counter your buffs with even more shenanigans on release.

Ok to confirm, the idea is that this new (and free?) rule that Power Armour (and presumably Artificer Armour?) provides Relentless is being applied to:

Space Marines
Adepta Sororitas
Inquisition forces with Power armour
Adeptus Mechanicus forces with Power armour
Chaos Space Marines

That's quite a lot of units?

Or is it only Space marines that somehow "deserve" it?

I thought the fact that SoB justify the wacky notion that their tiny armour is somehow providing equal protection by saying that their armour lacks a lot of other things? Like, less fibro-muscles?

If so they are obviously excluded.

Depending on how much of this rule would be given due to the wearer and how much due to the armour, Mechanicus PA may or may not be included.

CSM and SM should be obvious.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I thought the fact that SoB justify the wacky notion that their tiny armour is somehow providing equal protection by saying that their armour lacks a lot of other things? Like, less fibro-muscles?

If so they are obviously excluded.

Depending on how much of this rule would be given due to the wearer and how much due to the armour, Mechanicus PA may or may not be included.

CSM and SM should be obvious.

Is that the wacky notion that all information provided by the writers of the game actually states?

We have provided numerous examples of this - if you want to ignore it in favour of your own version on 40k =- that's fine and good and not unusual tbh but its counter to the actual information we have.......

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I thought the fact that SoB justify the wacky notion that their tiny armour is somehow providing equal protection by saying that their armour lacks a lot of other things? Like, less fibro-muscles?

If so they are obviously excluded.

Depending on how much of this rule would be given due to the wearer and how much due to the armour, Mechanicus PA may or may not be included.

CSM and SM should be obvious.

Is that the wacky notion that all information provided by the writers of the game actually states?

We have provided numerous examples of this - if you want to ignore it in favour of your own version on 40k =- that's fine and good and not unusual tbh but its counter to the actual information we have.......

I was not questioning that it provides equal protection - I think it's weird, but it's not what my post was adressing.

But rather, since it has equal protection while being much smaller, it must sacrifice other functionalities (like much of its strength) unless SoB have warp-portals in their armour that store bits of it.

For all its quality, SoB armour is not able to create something out of nothing.

Well you did call it wacky hence my reply?

The Current Codex says:

Power armour: Constructed from thick ceramite plates, the power armour worn by the Adepta Sororitas is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced support systems and strength enhancing abilities, for the Sisters of Battle do not possess a Space Marine’s ability to interface directly with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few forces outside of the Adeptus Astartes to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to use its abilities to deadly effect

So its clear that its not quite as effective in some areas and you could def argue that if you were granting Relentless than perhaps AS don't normally get that........

But then I also feel that Astartes should get more stuff and different stats but ti would mean playing with very few of them....... But also all Power Armour (or Xenos equivalents) should really get Night Vision?

But then Chaos Marines should also have "Legion or renegade Chapter Tactics" - but then arguably so should - Necron Dynasties, Eldar Craftworlds, Sororitas Orders, Guard Regiments etc etc

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well you did call it wacky hence my reply?

The Current Codex says:

Power armour: Constructed from thick ceramite plates, the power armour worn by the Adepta Sororitas is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced support systems and strength enhancing abilities, for the Sisters of Battle do not possess a Space Marine’s ability to interface directly with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few forces outside of the Adeptus Astartes to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to use its abilities to deadly effect

So its clear that its not quite as effective in some areas and you could def argue that if you were granting Relentless than perhaps AS don't normally get that........

But then I also feel that Astartes should get more stuff and different stats but ti would mean playing with very few of them....... But also all Power Armour (or Xenos equivalents) should really get Night Vision?

But then Chaos Marines should also have "Legion or renegade Chapter Tactics" - but then arguably so should - Necron Dynasties, Eldar Craftworlds, Sororitas Orders, Guard Regiments etc etc

It's wacky because their armour is tiny. If people said that Space Marines were as strong as Warbosses it would cause an outrage because Marines are smaller. Same principle.

I agree with the rest of what you said, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
I do like the idea of increasing options as a way to add value. For Tac squads, giving them the option to take up to 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons makes sense.

I would also support reducing the cost of the vet sgt to 5 points or 0. It's silly that an IG sgt has 2 attacks but a marine sgt has 1.

I still disagree with the fundamental assertion that Tac squads are only decent in two armies. Each of the prime chapters has crazy good usrs: furious charge, counter attack, and stubborn. IFists basically have BS 5 with their bolters.

I disagree as well; I say they are decent in zero armies.

Ultra marines tacticals are twin linked everything for 2 turns with calgar...that is good. Outside of that all tacts are point sinks.