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I guess we do as long as anyone considers GW's "lore" to be any basis for a mathematically based game. I think the Astartes are losers with antiquated tech and outmoded battle doctrines. The game sorta reflects this.

It does. Fortunately, the game is only one example, and easily dismissed when debating the lore from a greater perspective.

Given that I spend way more time playing the game than reading their terrible fiction, it's not so easy for me to dismiss.

Then you should perhaps consider not saying that every time someone tries to debate fluff? We know your opinion already, and 'I dismiss it' is not really helpful.

Would welcome your input once it comes to balancing, though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Note how I said Chaos Space Marines.

The Chaos Space Marines in that novel are not protagonists, but they are fighting hundreds and winning easily.

Indeed, they directly oppose the protagonists and still pull off just as sick gak.

Seems like a safe sign that no worfing is present.

You're telling me a "Space Marine Battles" novel isn't exaggerating how awesome the Space Marines are?

How about the machrius crusade books? Those are built around guard and the lord generals. However it has space marines (space wolves) pulling off gak with one company (usually only 10-15 around) that an entire regiment would be hard pressed to do.

That aside, I'm not asking for 5-10 models to play, I dont want 5-10, models to play, not only does it seem a bit boring but it would cause the hero's to be less heroric. All I wanted to do Here was buff on of the least used basic troops in game

Eldar DA- loved and used
Tau firewarriors- loved and used
IG platoons/vets- save full armor list loved and used.
DE warriors- freaking spammed in those raiders man
Necrons(god forbid)- I never see a cron list w/out one 20 man warrior blob with 4++ WBB and wrecking any vehicles with 6s,- loved and used

Space Marines? If we play 'competitively' 9/10 times you see 2 minimal tac squads taken as a tax. Why? Because they are sub-par.

The only other army I really feel has a right to complain about basic troops is orks. But that's for different reasons not purely at the ork boys fault.


I'm not trying to balance to fluff, only balance to other troops. I'd appreciate you not bash be as a 'oh I want my fluff marines hur hur' when I propose something. If you wish to present actual reasons as to why my thoughts are wrong, or if you think something a little less is needed (as others have suggested) that's fine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then you should perhaps consider not saying that every time someone tries to debate fluff? We know your opinion already, and 'I dismiss it' is not really helpful.

Would welcome your input once it comes to balancing, though.

I think it's helpful to keep pointing out that a game can't be balanced around nonsense fiction written by a horde of authors.

I would submit that as long as we are on the D6 system, tac marines are stuck with being terrible.

Nah.

We can buff them a bit. We don't have to make everything exactly as fluff as it'd make the game unplayable. But we can make it a little bit closer, and plug a balance hole at the same time.

*Insert 12 Gaunts Ghost killing 5 SM with the help of a bunch of civilians here*

Or the 10 Kasrkins taking out Plague Marines with a few losses.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Nah.

We can buff them a bit. We don't have to make everything exactly as fluff as it'd make the game unplayable. But we can make it a little bit closer, and plug a balance hole at the same time.

Within the D6 system, there is no room left.

 Bobthehero wrote:
*Insert 12 Gaunts Ghost killing 5 SM with the help of a bunch of civilians here*

Or the 10 Kasrkins taking out Plague Marines with a few losses.

I thought we were dismissing the feats made by the protagonists of novels as plot armour?

If not, the IG are going to have to do far worse than that to beat the Mach 180 Marines.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Nah.

We can buff them a bit. We don't have to make everything exactly as fluff as it'd make the game unplayable. But we can make it a little bit closer, and plug a balance hole at the same time.

Within the D6 system, there is no room left.

Make their weapons Shred? Pretty small thing but everything helps?

Maybe shred. It effectively doubles their wounds against T6 MCs. Players from other lists are going to freak out, though. Like all the people that think tacticals are already good. I don't know how many tactical based lists I have to table before the word gets out. Oh well.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Interests of full disclosure: One of my largest armies is Dark Angels, I am a Marine player. I don't have an ulterior anti-Marine crusade going on. The issue I have is Marine players deciding that their exaggerated lore is obviously the most accurate exaggeration and Space Marines are so much better than everyone else that five guys should be able to fight an army. 'Small, elite army' does not, cannot, and should not mean 'I get to buy one box and play the game while everyone else has to spend hundreds of dollars on cannon fodder that exists only for my special, special dudes to remove it from play'. This is a two-player game at the end of the day. If it was a single-player video game or a movie you might see a dozen Space Marines fighting thousands of enemies and winning (hey, you could go watch Ultramarines or play DoW2 if you want that experience!), but there's a real, live person on the other side of the table who's just as emotionally invested in his army as you are in yours and didn't come to be massacred to make you feel better about yourself.

I don't even care about the lore when it comes to this issue; it's the callous disregard for the limitations of the format and for non-Marine players that gets me grumpy about this problem.

As to your more specific lorewise points I suggest you pick up a Xeno Codex sometime and tell me how many Incubi or Crisis suits it ought to take to fight an army. As to the numerical argument the primary advantage of Space Marines is force concentration, they don't exist to pit a thousand Marines against hundreds of thousands of traitors in open field battles, they exist to pick a precise target and kill it very, very dead. Consider the difference between five Drop Pods full of Space Marines and five Drop Pods full of Guardsmen on the tabletop.

Well, its one thing to have an army, and its another to have a favorite I have 6 WFB armies, and I like one over the rest.
At least now you are elaborating your real feelings though, that its more about not screwing over the experience of the other person, which is, very noble, and.... good. Not very many people I wager consider the 'person' in the hobby. However, as a counter about the equal financial investment for both parties: it seems a bit shallow to assert that some sort of balance is needed in actual cost ($) - among the armies. I really don't see a problem with having an army that is cheap to field. If anything, it may just get more players interested in the game.

As far as your later thoughts regarding the numbers and xenos issue I mentioned earlier:
1. xenos have their prized units that are somewhat comparable to astartes, but its not as though buffing astartes will take away their thunder. Plus, I simply don't think there is as much issue with very many xenos elites as there are SM's.
2. You are correct in essentially stating that SM's are used for surgical strikes than frontline... typically. However, their 'performance statistics' do not even come close to the comparable methods of mass guardsman who could accomplish the same thing via Valkyries (and probably at a fraction of the price tag - in Thrones ). Oh and don't forget about the replenishment rate..... I don't think any chapter would survive for very long under the casualty rate of 40k rules. Oh and stating that most marine fluff as just exaggeration is ignoring most of every book and rulebook ever written about space marines.... that's a lot of exaggeration; that argument seems weak.

I just don't think you are really thinking about the arithmetic holes SM's have to fill in such a grand scale Imperium.

There is a fundamental issue regarding your view and mine: it sounds like you care about more the mechanics than the lore, right? If mechanics matter more in a game, then what kind of wargame are you really trying to play? I would wager, its inline with more a board game than a wargame. Mechanical balance in a wargame is meant to be somewhat loose in translation to fit the lore its depicting. If a game loses that perspective. , and it involves dice (like warhammer) then it can become marginalized to the point where it's a fancy (and clumsy) way of playing rock paper scissors - More of a sport than a story.

But if all their weapons have shred then I have reason to use lightning claws ( which is a shame because space marine wolverines look awesome.) What about just giving all space marines t5? Bolters and such can still harm them as well s7 +spam . With bikes bringing up the toughness another +1 you could possibly have t6 space marines with relentless, grav guns, and twin-linked bolters. Problem solved: the marines are awesome again.

I meant only giving Bolters Shred.

Their melee attacks could also gain Shred. Price drop Lightning Claws (Or adjust them another way, like +1S), and remember they still give AP3.

+1T is also viable.

Or let them reroll their armour save? (Maybe let the reroll be only at a lower chance if people feel it's too OP?)

Give them a little invul?

6+ FNP? (5+ for IH, 4+ with Apothecary)

 Ashiraya wrote:
I meant only giving Bolters Shred.

Their melee attacks could also gain Shred. Price drop Lightning Claws (Or adjust them another way, like +1S), and remember they still give AP3.

+1T is also viable.

Or let them reroll their armour save? (Maybe let the reroll be only at a lower chance if people feel it's too OP?)

Give them a little invul?

6+ FNP? (5+ for IH, 4+ with Apothecary)

Shred is an insanely overpowered USR. You're talking about making marines more than 50% better at shooting. S5 bolters would be less OP and still be insanely OP.

You can have T5 if you pay the price for Nurgle marines.

Reroll 3+ armor save? No. Are you kidding? That'd go from 1/3 to 1/9. They have those from forge world, at 50 points per squad.

If you want an invul then play Sisters.

Want FNP then buy apothecaries. Don't Iron Hands already have FNP?

Or just give them relentless...

Relentless would work, but every space marine would have to get it ( it makes no sense why tactical marines have it and not devastators). It would certainly make them a much faster army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still there are people who want space marines to stay at the level where they are and not get buffed up more

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Relentless would work, but every space marine would have to get it ( it makes no sense why tactical marines have it and not devastators). It would certainly make them a much faster army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still there are people who want space marines to stay at the level where they are and not get buffed up more

I agree - all power armor should get it. This would also be the easiest buff the could give marines because it would only effect marine codex (as opposed to buffing bolters).

Seems kinda wrong to be hip-shooting Plasma Cannons and Lascannons.

Perhaps instead of buffing foot Marines, we should instead fix Bikes (and other things).

Like I said earlier, if think want the ability to move, rapid fire, and charge in one turn but NOT fire a heavy weapon then just make bolters assault weapons. Giving them relentless seems reasonable if there was a slight point cost ( especially since bikes already get it) but I could see how it could be frowned upon.They both achieve the effect of making the space marines a whole lot faster and versatile, because it lets them use all of their skills at once instead of making them pick between being OK at shooting and OK at CC.

Bharring wrote:
Seems kinda wrong to be hip-shooting Plasma Cannons and Lascannons.

Perhaps instead of buffing foot Marines, we should instead fix Bikes (and other things).

Bikes don't require a fix at all...my raven wing gets spanked...Vanilla marines do a little better with bikes cause grav guns are such a nice weapon but there is nothing wrong with the way a bike is priced. Perhaps giving bikes skilled rider for free in white scars is a little over powered but that has nothing to do with bikes price for every other chapter. Just nerf the white scars tactics - not bikes in general. A marine is really strong - it's not hip firing anything - as you can see they easily wield a laz cannon with their arms and are able to aim it accurately. Is it really much of a step for them to do that while walking forward?

I value krak grenades more than I value ATSKNF, and they're both extremely awesome.

That said, I agree that tacticals don't feel very "special" and aren't as powerful as they SHOULD be, given how central they are to the fluff. We read that most of the heavy-lifting of a chapter is done by heroic individual marines who win out more because of their superior training than their wargear, but that's not really reflected at all by our best units.

Thunderfire cannons are extremely effective, but they don't feel space marine-y at all. It even says in their fluff that their use is generally an exception to the rapid-engagement, infantry-heavy rule of space marine warfare. The same thing could be said for Centurion Warsuits.

I'm not saying "give my marines free stuff," I'm just saying I wish the codex was built around tac squads.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Relentless would work, but every space marine would have to get it ( it makes no sense why tactical marines have it and not devastators). It would certainly make them a much faster army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still there are people who want space marines to stay at the level where they are and not get buffed up more

it does make since IIRC tactical marines are only 1 step away from Veterans.

assault-dev-tac, it can be wrote off as tac marines have learned even better how to use there gear/armor.

Bharring wrote:
Seems kinda wrong to be hip-shooting Plasma Cannons and Lascannons.

Perhaps instead of buffing foot Marines, we should instead fix Bikes (and other things).

Nerfing bikes won't make tacs good. It will just make bikes bad again.

Giving marines relentless to boost the effectiveness of bolters is not that much of a boost, I think. Marines suffer from having feeble offense for their point cost and the current available weapons make a mockery of T4 3+ save. Marines struggle to get into a position to fire bolters and then assault. There's drop pods, but the casualty rate on drop troops is insanely high, and few survive to assault the next turn.

Someone is on a derp crusade.

 TheSilo wrote:

Shred is an insanely overpowered USR. You're talking about making marines more than 50% better at shooting. S5 bolters would be less OP and still be insanely OP.

Would it now? Let's see if Martel agrees.

 TheSilo wrote:

You can have T5 if you pay the price for Nurgle marines.

Yes, because MoN CSM are great units. Oh wait lol.

 TheSilo wrote:

Reroll 3+ armor save? No. Are you kidding? That'd go from 1/3 to 1/9. They have those from forge world, at 50 points per squad.

You may or may not have noticed that little extra bit I added 'Maybe make the reroll a lower chance' to prevent people QQing on a rerollable 3+ being too good.

 TheSilo wrote:

If you want an invul then play Sisters.

BS. They don't have a monopoly on soldier-level invulns, not any more than MoT cultists/Marines do.

 TheSilo wrote:

Want FNP then buy apothecaries. Don't Iron Hands already have FNP?

Yes, both do, hence why I specifically accounted for them in the brackets.

It's not more than 50% better, because of the to-hit rolls. It nearly doubles wounds against T6, but is less useful against T3. Of course, I'm rarely getting to shoot T3, so there is that argument.

Shred is an interesting proposal. I personally have troubles with marines getting crushed with 36" + guns, however. Marines just have to invest in expensive models with rapid fire 24" guns. That's just fundamentally bad in 7th ed.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Someone is on a derp crusade.

 TheSilo wrote:

Shred is an insanely overpowered USR. You're talking about making marines more than 50% better at shooting. S5 bolters would be less OP and still be insanely OP.

Would it now? Let's see if Martel agrees.

 TheSilo wrote:

You can have T5 if you pay the price for Nurgle marines.

Yes, because MoN CSM are great units. Oh wait lol.

 TheSilo wrote:

Reroll 3+ armor save? No. Are you kidding? That'd go from 1/3 to 1/9. They have those from forge world, at 50 points per squad.

You may or may not have noticed that little extra bit I added 'Maybe make the reroll a lower chance' to prevent people QQing on a rerollable 3+ being too good.

 TheSilo wrote:

If you want an invul then play Sisters.

BS. They don't have a monopoly on soldier-level invulns, not any more than MoT cultists/Marines do.

 TheSilo wrote:

Want FNP then buy apothecaries. Don't Iron Hands already have FNP?

Yes, both do, hence why I specifically accounted for them in the brackets.

And yet players are here advocating getting these buffs for free or for a pittance. Marines and other armies have access to many of these buffs through options or psychic powers, which cost way more than the 1 or 2 points that people are suggesting. You can get biomancy and go for endurance, or telepathy and go for telekine dome, or divination and go for prescience, but whichever way, you need to spend the points. The Forge World 3+ re-roll marines are at +5 points per model. You can take apothecaries or choose the Iron Hands chapter tactics, you don't just get buffs and buffs for free. These options all exist, you just want them for nothing.

Your concerns are why I don't think tac marines can be fixed in the D6 system. We need a D10 system for greater dynamic spread of units. Give marines a 4+ save on a D10, and Tau suits a 3+ and terminators a 2+, and dire avengers a 5+.

I don't want everything for nothing.

It's a fact that Tactical Marine Squads currently are on the low end of points efficiency. Doesn't it make sense to make them better to adjust this?

We should seek to nerf/buff every unit until they become average.

Hell, take this as an example:

Give Marines an armour save reroll, but make the reroll 6+ instead of 3+.

A tiny change that's a tiny buff to survivability, but it is a step in the right direction.

Maybe even 5+, though that would take some testing and mathhammering.

The D6 system is non-ideal and limited, but it's not so limited as to make Tacticals either bad or OP no matter what you do.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't want everything for nothing.

It's a fact that Tactical Marine Squads currently are on the low end of points efficiency. Doesn't it make sense to make them better to adjust this?

We should seek to nerf/buff every unit until they become average.

Hell, take this as an example:

Give Marines an armour save reroll, but make the reroll 6+ instead of 3+.

A tiny change that's a tiny buff to survivability, but it is a step in the right direction.

Maybe even 5+, though that would take some testing and mathhammering.

The D6 system is non-ideal and limited, but it's not so limited as to make Tacticals either bad or OP no matter what you do.

Tactical squads are only bad if you ignore the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, or Iron Hands chapter tactics in which case you've deliberately chosen a chapter that doesn't focus on tactical marines.

Librarians are available for 65 points, you can stick him in with a squad and confer any of the biomancy, telekinesis, or telepathy bonuses. Or you can pull primaris psykers from IG for 50 points.

We don't need more re-rolls to slow down the game, especially not on every troops choice in half the armies.