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 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The most relevant math is S6 wounding T4 and T 3 on the same number.

And?

What about all the weapons that aren't S6?

Your opponents have those? Oh maybe you mean grav...

Martel732 wrote:
Your opponents have those? Oh maybe you mean grav...

Well, here's a rough, non-exhaustive list of the weapons I regularly see that aren't S6 or higher:
Bolters
Bolt Pistols
Sluggas
Shootas
Big Shootas
Flamers*
Heavy Flamers*
Scorchers
Storm Bolters
Heavy Bolters*
Splinter weapons*
Lasguns*
Fleshborers
Devourers
Gauss Flayers*
Gauss Blasters*
Haywire Blasters*
Various psychic powers, if they count

Ones marked with a '*' are ones I regularly use as well.

And, of course, that's to say nothing of all the melee units/weapons that aren't S6 or higher.

In addition, most of the S6+ weapons I see aren't shooting infantry anyway - they're shooting vehicles and/or MCs.

I've lost so many marines to scatter lasers, serpent shields, high yield missile pods and nova charged Riptides that I forget other weapons exist. I guess DA guns are S4, but by the time they are shooting me, they only need to cause like two wounds. Oh, and the Tiggystar doesn't care about T4, either.

Martel732 wrote:
The most relevant math is S6 wounding T4 and T 3 on the same number.

If you want to tell me your Tactical Marines are losing melee to an equivalent points value of Guardsmen something's gone wrong. And it's not your Tactical Marines.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The most relevant math is S6 wounding T4 and T 3 on the same number.

If you want to tell me your Tactical Marines are losing melee to an equivalent points value of Guardsmen something's gone wrong. And it's not your Tactical Marines.

A tac marine has W1 T4 S4 WS4 A1

Three guardsmen have W3 T3 S3 WS3 A3

The marine generates about 0.3 wounds per combat phase, while the guardsmen generate 0.17 wounds per combat phase, but have three times as many wounds to give. In general, I will take the huge amounts of dice that guard blobs generate over the pittance of dice that tac marines roll.

Point for point, tac marines can beat practically nothing in the game in HTH. When tac marines win in HTH, it's because you have triple the point value of tac marines in the combat with the enemy unit.

BTW. You get on average 2 ap2 shots with DA but have the option to charge. Marines don't.

 raiden wrote:
BTW. You get on average 2 ap2 shots with DA but have the option to charge. Marines don't.

And can double tap out to 18".

Unless you are talking iron hands i just dont think relentless fits. and i would only give relentless to certain units via hq imo. I personally think all marines should have 6+ fnp and iron hands get Inviolate armour, rigid tactics, and stand and fight in place of the 6+ fnp they get now. But heck, who am I kidding. If it were up to me Iron Hands would have their own codex and look closer to their 30k setup in several areas. ie cyber familiars, iron fathers (would allow on bikes), hq dreads (all types), terminator sergeants (lose access to rhinos, razorbacks, and drop pods in exchange for a banner effect). In effect it would be a mishmash of some of the 30k rules that aren't broken and this guy's work up http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/152367-codex-iron-hands/page-51#entry3439709 with a little of my own thoughts added in.

 koooaei wrote:
Regular SM are not huge enough to be relentless.

Is that Harker I see waving from the corner there?

One guy out trillions, born on a planet known for its huge human. How does that compare to every freaking SM.

 Bobthehero wrote:
One guy out trillions, born on a planet known for its huge human. How does that compare to every freaking SM.

Harker is a normal human, who is smaller than your average space marine

Says who, its entirely possible he's the one human larger or SM sized.

I.. Space marines are 8-9 ft tall. Avg..

Nah, they're 7''

 raiden wrote:
I.. Space marines are 8-9 ft tall. Avg..

According to C: SM, the average marine is 7 1/2 feet tall and about 650lbs

must be thinking of older fluff, swear I read somewhere they were 8-9.

 raiden wrote:
must be thinking of older fluff, swear I read somewhere they were 8-9.

Could be in-armour vs. out.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Regular SM are not huge enough to be relentless.

Is that Harker I see waving from the corner there?

I want relentless lootas.

 koooaei wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Regular SM are not huge enough to be relentless.

Is that Harker I see waving from the corner there?

I want relentless lootas.

I'd be fine with that lol.

 raiden wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Regular SM are not huge enough to be relentless.

Is that Harker I see waving from the corner there?

I want relentless lootas.

I'd be fine with that lol.

Where do we stop? Who doesn't get Relentless if we start handing it out like candy? My Guardians are carrying their gun on an antigravity platform, why do they have to stop moving to fire?

Fine. Marines don't get relentless, but they get a usr to allow them to fire rapid fire weapons then charge.

Or just make the bolter assault.

I'd rather be able to double tap my plasma gun and charge. But bolter assualts would be a start.

The plasma gun at least makes it worth not charging.

Martel732 wrote:
The plasma gun at least makes it worth not charging.

Idk. If I'm close enough to DA I would rather charge I think. Then again j play BA haha.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?

I been trying to say, "Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should reduce point cost!" For all the times I been a CSM player.

We dont get atsknf? My CSM should cost 2 pts less. We dont get infiltrating Chosen? Chosen should cost less. Cultist dont get IG orders? Cultist should cost less.

 Filch wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?

I been trying to say, "Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should reduce point cost!" For all the times I been a CSM player.

We dont get atsknf? My CSM should cost 2 pts less. We dont get infiltrating Chosen? Chosen should cost less. Cultist dont get IG orders? Cultist should cost less.

Hey, y'all could have ATSKNF if you hadn't betrayed the emperor


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 raiden wrote:
must be thinking of older fluff, swear I read somewhere they were 8-9.

Could be in-armour vs. out.

That would make sense. I'd imagine that bulky armor would add at lease 6 inches, termi armor probably closer to a foot.

 Filch wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?

I been trying to say, "Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should reduce point cost!" For all the times I been a CSM player.

We dont get atsknf? My CSM should cost 2 pts less. We dont get infiltrating Chosen? Chosen should cost less. Cultist dont get IG orders? Cultist should cost less.

ATSKNF is a non-benefit. It hurts as much as it helps.

 Bobthehero wrote:
One guy out trillions, born on a planet known for its huge human. How does that compare to every freaking SM.

Because Harker is of human strength and resilience, and Space Marines are of superhuman strength and resilience.

It really is not any more complex than that.

Martel732 wrote:

 Filch wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should buff it!" it's always a Marine player?

I been trying to say, "Why is it that whenever we get "X doesn't reflect the fluff, we should reduce point cost!" For all the times I been a CSM player.

We dont get atsknf? My CSM should cost 2 pts less. We dont get infiltrating Chosen? Chosen should cost less. Cultist dont get IG orders? Cultist should cost less.

ATSKNF is a non-benefit. It hurts as much as it helps.

Honestly its never been a non- benefit for me, that said its usually a small benefit.