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Hmm, yeah you're right. I had muted the video because I couldn't stand the guys voice, but actually listening to him he admits he made a mistake and copy and pasted it.
Still, if all the Deathshroud are good for is being meatshields for Mortarion, a high point investment himself, then I still think the Blightlords are the better options 90% of the time,
BlueBiscuit wrote: Hmm, yeah you're right. I had muted the video because I couldn't stand the guys voice, but actually listening to him he admits he made a mistake and copy and pasted it.
Still, if all the Deathshroud are good for is being meatshields for Mortarion, a high point investment himself, then I still think the Blightlords are the better options 90% of the time,
Well they are meatshields for any Death Guard character within 3" in shooting and melee.
They could potentially protect many characters at once.
I don't know how valuable that will end up being.
They also get strong melee and solid overwatch with their plague hand flamers.
They may not live to see combat though if they are defending everyone else.
Depends how far a 2+ a 4++ and a DR save get them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 18:04:59
dan2026 wrote: Deathshrouds can intercept hits intended for Morty.
If you are bringing the big man you probably want some of these too to make sure he gets where he's going.
So can the Blightlords.
No they for 100% can't intercept and I don't know where you got info they have 3 attacks .
But then again ... even though Deathshroud are durable. I'm not that really sure I want them to intercept multi wound hits. Those guys are 75 pts. They are actually more expensive per wound than Morty lol ... Easy math they cost 37.5 points per wound while morty is like 426/18 ~~23,6 per wound.
I would intercept low ap hits though, since they get 2+ base not 3+. Same for other characters. I would intercept all AP-1 / AP 0 shoots for characters ... and mostly let through rest unless it would be obvious they will hit something that is very important to me (warlord - doesn't have to be always Morty - in fact in smaller games it will be something else.)
I think blightlords are better choice than Deathshroud BlueBiscuit , but you got misinformed somewhere - they have other nice rule - actually VERY nice. No interceptions no 3 attacks. Bonus -1 AP can be even triggered on 4+ with veteran of long war and putrescent blades. And that is pretty big oh and they would mortal wounds on 5+ there aswell hehe. So they are super good target for this spell/stratagem.
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BlueBiscuit wrote: Hmm, yeah you're right. I had muted the video because I couldn't stand the guys voice, but actually listening to him he admits he made a mistake and copy and pasted it.
Still, if all the Deathshroud are good for is being meatshields for Mortarion, a high point investment himself, then I still think the Blightlords are the better options 90% of the time,
Interception ain't useless and if I heard well they got 4 attacks and 5 on champion with character nearby.
And now we are talking. In this setup they dish more damage per point than Blightlord, but are less resilient per point. So it's not really that one dimensional contest.
Keep in Mind Blightlords can't take meaty 2h weapon and take plague flamer pistol at same time.
Since they will often be near morty/or other warlord with arch contaminator. We can easily assume that pistol even though S3 will wound mostly on 5's but reroll ALL wound rolls.
So we are speaking about 3d6 auto hits there that actually can really butcher bunch of boys or other stuff trying to tarpit you.
Pistol that autohits and you can also shoot hit in CC. Powerful overwatch although 6" range only.
I'm still more into Blightlords, but I can't say Deathshroud suck. Blightlords are just THAT good.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/10 18:43:54
Ok so let's calm down. Mortarion isn't going to deal 200 wounds a turn. Ever. He's likely to deal 10-15 wounds a turn in CC, maybe 4-8 mortal wounds due to his aura, and likely 3 wounds from his pistol (not every model is a multi wound model).
So on average, MAYBE he does 100 wounds over the course of a game. Likely will do a little closer to 120-150 if the game goes 7 turns and if you take morale into account.
That being said, he is absolutely the best thing in the death guard codex. He can get -2 to hit and so should not be dying any time soon. If he does, your army simply doesn't have enough other threats.
There's a lot to love with the death guard codex. I don't think that pure death guard will likely be super competitive, but they will definitely win a lot of games. Very good army, and even better if you combine with normal CSM
So, if I understand this correctly... biologus + plauge marines + strategem that gives whole unit to shoot grenades = profit???
I love this crazy longshot combos. Would like to try it, just to see opponents face when I pull it off... even if I could pull it off only once in a dozen games
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 18:45:34
luke1705 wrote: Ok so let's calm down. Mortarion isn't going to deal 200 wounds a turn. Ever. He's likely to deal 10-15 wounds a turn in CC, maybe 4-8 mortal wounds due to his aura, and likely 3 wounds from his pistol (not every model is a multi wound model).
So on average, MAYBE he does 100 wounds over the course of a game. Likely will do a little closer to 120-150 if the game goes 7 turns and if you take morale into account.
That being said, he is absolutely the best thing in the death guard codex. He can get -2 to hit and so should not be dying any time soon. If he does, your army simply doesn't have enough other threats.
There's a lot to love with the death guard codex. I don't think that pure death guard will likely be super competitive, but they will definitely win a lot of games. Very good army, and even better if you combine with normal CSM
Huh I said he got potential to do, not that he will deal 200 wounds . So you actually need to calm down there .
I agree though with your argument about Mortarion resilience. Now we have tons of other targets THAT DEMAND attention of enemy lascannons / plasma. Namely best terminators , plagueburst crawlers, bloat drones, haulers to name few. You just can't ignore Plagueburst crawler with damn mortar and 2 entropic cannons who are almost same like lascannons and this another gun i dont know what it does.
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crnaguja wrote: So, if I understand this correctly... biologus + plauge marines + strategem that gives whole unit to shoot grenades = profit???
I love this crazy longshot combos. Would like to try it, just to see opponents face when I pull it off... even if I could pull it off only once in a dozen games
Sadly not exactly, as if I remember you can only use stratagem in Overwatch so hiting on 6"s ... which can still be powerful . But no there is no grenade genocide in your shooting phase.
But yeah I wish they could let us do this in shooting phase too. Not like grenades are broken overall in 8th edition. If you get guy to buff you and spend CPs ... it should be powerful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 18:49:51
crnaguja wrote: So, if I understand this correctly... biologus + plauge marines + strategem that gives whole unit to shoot grenades = profit???
I love this crazy longshot combos. Would like to try it, just to see opponents face when I pull it off... even if I could pull it off only once in a dozen games
Sadly not exactly, as if I remember you can only use stratagem in Overwatch so hiting on 6"s ... which can still be powerful . But no there is no grenade genocide in your shooting phase.
But yeah I wish they could let us do this in shooting phase too. Not like grenades are broken overall in 8th edition. If you get guy to buff you and spend CPs ... it should be powerful.
No, its shooting or overwatch Throw in arch contaminator for those rerolls for some extra flavor
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 18:54:58
luke1705 wrote: Ok so let's calm down. Mortarion isn't going to deal 200 wounds a turn. Ever. He's likely to deal 10-15 wounds a turn in CC, maybe 4-8 mortal wounds due to his aura, and likely 3 wounds from his pistol (not every model is a multi wound model).
So on average, MAYBE he does 100 wounds over the course of a game. Likely will do a little closer to 120-150 if the game goes 7 turns and if you take morale into account.
Huh I said he got potential to do, not that he will deal 200 wounds . So you actually need to calm down there .
Please describe a single feasible scenario in which this could happen. I'll wait.
luke1705 wrote: Ok so let's calm down. Mortarion isn't going to deal 200 wounds a turn. Ever. He's likely to deal 10-15 wounds a turn in CC, maybe 4-8 mortal wounds due to his aura, and likely 3 wounds from his pistol (not every model is a multi wound model).
So on average, MAYBE he does 100 wounds over the course of a game. Likely will do a little closer to 120-150 if the game goes 7 turns and if you take morale into account.
That being said, he is absolutely the best thing in the death guard codex. He can get -2 to hit and so should not be dying any time soon. If he does, your army simply doesn't have enough other threats.
There's a lot to love with the death guard codex. I don't think that pure death guard will likely be super competitive, but they will definitely win a lot of games. Very good army, and even better if you combine with normal CSM
I suspect list building for competitive Chaos SM will definitely steal Mortarion, as he's a terrific threat. He'll be used similarly to Magnus, and with support casters from CSM and Nurgle Daemons... he can be an amazing threat.
Interesting to see all the rules released so far. I have a few questions about old Chaos units used in the army.
1) Do you see a role for defilers? Seems to me they provide useful long-range shooting (something that's generally lacking in codex) and some durability and can be a threat up close.
2) What do you guys think about Cultists? Yes they're cheaper than pox-walkers, and yes they have access to shooting attacks but they don't benefit from a lot of the special rules that the pox walkers do. The best role I see them in is bubble wrap for the artillery tank in the backfield.
3) How do you guys feel about Predator tanks? I've never used them before and they seem decent choice on paper. Is there any shortcoming to using them for long range fire support?
I suspect list building for competitive Chaos SM will definitely steal Mortarion, as he's a terrific threat. He'll be used similarly to Magnus, and with support casters from CSM and Nurgle Daemons... he can be an amazing threat.
Can confirm. Have 3 different variants of my competitive CSM list, all of which include him.
If you want real praise for Mortarion, I'm considering dropping Magnus if I have to choose only 1 of them because I believe that Mortarion is better suited to the current meta.
mario88826 wrote: . I would intercept all AP-1 / AP 0 shoots for characters ... and mostly let through rest unless it would be obvious they will hit something that is very important to me (warlord - doesn't have to be always Morty - in fact in smaller games it will be something else.)
Looking at the exact wording, I don't think intercepting is optional. Reduces the versatility somewhat.
2) What do you guys think about Cultists? Yes they're cheaper than pox-walkers, and yes they have access to shooting attacks but they don't benefit from a lot of the special rules that the pox walkers do. The best role I see them in is bubble wrap for the artillery tank in the backfield.
Step 1: Take a squad of poxwalkers in a DG Detachment, and 1-2 max size cultist squads in another detachment (pure CSM)
Step 2) Use 1 CP to make a unit of poxwalkers untargetable and another to turn on their mega death ability, and put the cultists beside them. If your opponent shoots the cultists, you gain a poxwalker for every cultist that dies. There's no counterplay to this other than not shooting the cultists (I'm ok with you not shooting 40-80 cultists) since the poxwalkers are being shielded by the cultists.
Step 3) Eventually your cultists die, either because your opponent shot at them or you got to cc. Now all of those 4 point cultists have been converted to 6 point poxwalkers, each of which are Str 5 and T5 (thanks typhus!). Oh and you have around 80-100 poxwalkers instead of the 20 you paid for originally.
Step 4) Add insult to injury. Pay 2 CP to resuscitate a squad of cultists and have them stand next to the poxwalkers again
luke1705 wrote: Ok so let's calm down. Mortarion isn't going to deal 200 wounds a turn. Ever. He's likely to deal 10-15 wounds a turn in CC, maybe 4-8 mortal wounds due to his aura, and likely 3 wounds from his pistol (not every model is a multi wound model).
So on average, MAYBE he does 100 wounds over the course of a game. Likely will do a little closer to 120-150 if the game goes 7 turns and if you take morale into account.
Huh I said he got potential to do, not that he will deal 200 wounds . So you actually need to calm down there .
Please describe a single feasible scenario in which this could happen. I'll wait.
"Feasible" - hell no - i never said those 200 wounds were practically easy to pull off. But you asked for it, so here we go .
Oh well first of all clumping around him enough units to get damaged you aura can dish xx wounds easily. Then again through 18" can hit few targets with lantern or deal UP TO (not saying he will) 12 wounds with phosphex bombs(i will go with lantern though). Then attacks some IMPERIUM blob .
Procs 18x DTFE (remember you wanted just theory that could occur with some 0,00000000001% probability but still) . So 36 hits now things start to be interesting there. He needs both putrescent blades on him and virulent blessing (he is viable target as he is both Demon and Nurgle).
That makes each of his wound on 5s and 6's to deal mortal wound in addition to normal damage. So here is your !! possible !! another 36 wounds. But thats not all on 5's and 6's he deals double damage. So he deals 36 MW's and 72 damage from normal damage. In fact he didn't even need to roll 6's there 5+ is enough .
So alone from Silence possible 108 wounds (haha I know it's perfect scenario but YOU ASKED FOR IT) - probably can deal more with some Dark Hereticus spell. But that is why I said he can "theoretically " deal even more than 200 . So don't ask me for just 200 ! From pistol you lets say got another 18 - i can easily line up 6 or EVEN more units in 18" line. The he plague winds some 18" away blob of 30 models to death . That is 30 wounds more.
So we roll already 156 wounds (remember we could get more from both silence and pistol !). 7 More wounds from the other new spell and 6 wounds from smite (buff spells were casted on him by herald of nurgle and some DG psyker).
And after that I can easily assume in some slowed setup there is enough small enough units to fit within 7" to get our missing 37 wounds. Actually that is easier part.
So like I said, probably can do way more. But thats all pure theory .
I NEVER SAID he will do as many wounds EVER.
But He CAN , that is point . And noone else can even get close to that.
Of course I can imagine what kind of % there is just to plague wind 30 guys 30 rolls of 6 .
So if you use some imagination bro - probably you can deal more ... you just lack imagination
Ok he can explode at end of his turn due to damage he received in let's say Fight phase to get even more wounds around. So yeah 200 is not even best that is possible .
2) What do you guys think about Cultists? Yes they're cheaper than pox-walkers, and yes they have access to shooting attacks but they don't benefit from a lot of the special rules that the pox walkers do. The best role I see them in is bubble wrap for the artillery tank in the backfield.
Step 1: Take a squad of poxwalkers in a DG Detachment, and 1-2 max size cultist squads in another detachment (pure CSM)
Step 2) Use 1 CP to make a unit of poxwalkers untargetable and another to turn on their mega death ability, and put the cultists beside them. If your opponent shoots the cultists, you gain a poxwalker for every cultist that dies. There's no counterplay to this other than not shooting the cultists (I'm ok with you not shooting 40-80 cultists) since the poxwalkers are being shielded by the cultists.
Step 3) Eventually your cultists die, either because your opponent shot at them or you got to cc. Now all of those 4 point cultists have been converted to 6 point poxwalkers, each of which are Str 5 and T5 (thanks typhus!). Oh and you have around 80-100 poxwalkers instead of the 20 you paid for originally.
Step 4) Add insult to injury. Pay 2 CP to resuscitate a squad of cultists and have them stand next to the poxwalkers again
I was thinking about it , but here is catch - you can get as many poxwalkers as long as they "heal" unit up to it's original number of models. At least in matched play. Otherwise you would have to pay for those poxwalkers.
Unless it will be clarified otherwise by FAQ. So not really - you cannot make pox unit bigger than 20 (that was thier max ?)
Let me remind you that even making random chaos spawn via some spell or via some item - you still have to pay for this spawn. (example TS spell bolt of change or so).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 19:26:35
Lots of wrong ideas and bad math in this thread. No, Morty can't even theoretically do 200 or whatever wounds in a turn. Even assuming you somehow got into 1" of 2 or 3 big units that could eat those theoretical extra attacks on Silence, that means you aren't close enough to individuals units to stack his mortal wound aura or shoot with his pistol for a lot more wounds. So in terms of spacing of models on the board, you will max out on being able to do 30-60 wounds in a turn in the very theoretical upper limit under perfect circumstances.
Also, there is no rule keeping poxwalkers from going above the starting strength of the number of models you are allowed to include in the unit when fielding them in your list. The unit can go to infinite size.
There is also no way to get -2 to hit on Morty, sorry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 19:57:58
2) What do you guys think about Cultists? Yes they're cheaper than pox-walkers, and yes they have access to shooting attacks but they don't benefit from a lot of the special rules that the pox walkers do. The best role I see them in is bubble wrap for the artillery tank in the backfield.
Step 1: Take a squad of poxwalkers in a DG Detachment, and 1-2 max size cultist squads in another detachment (pure CSM)
Step 2) Use 1 CP to make a unit of poxwalkers untargetable and another to turn on their mega death ability, and put the cultists beside them. If your opponent shoots the cultists, you gain a poxwalker for every cultist that dies. There's no counterplay to this other than not shooting the cultists (I'm ok with you not shooting 40-80 cultists) since the poxwalkers are being shielded by the cultists.
Step 3) Eventually your cultists die, either because your opponent shot at them or you got to cc. Now all of those 4 point cultists have been converted to 6 point poxwalkers, each of which are Str 5 and T5 (thanks typhus!). Oh and you have around 80-100 poxwalkers instead of the 20 you paid for originally.
Step 4) Add insult to injury. Pay 2 CP to resuscitate a squad of cultists and have them stand next to the poxwalkers again
This looks so mean! Thats gonna be one crazy zombie hoard. Bring typhus and necrosius and it will get insane!
Also, there is no rule keeping poxwalkers from going above the starting strength of the number of models you are allowed to include in the unit when fielding them in your list. The unit can go to infinite size.
There is also no way to get -2 to hit on Morty, sorry.
Correct on the poxwalkers.
Good catch on the no -2 for Morty. I didn't notice that the miasma of pestilence had the same name in the CSM book and the DG book. I guess that'll be the MO going forward with 1ksons too. Can expect to see the Tzeentch power ported over to their dex. That being said, I'm fine with him just self casting -1 to hit.
Virules wrote: Lots of wrong ideas and bad math in this thread. No, Morty can't even theoretically do 200 or whatever wounds in a turn. Even assuming you somehow got into 1" of 2 or 3 big units that could eat those theoretical extra attacks on Silence, that means you aren't close enough to individuals units to stack his mortal wound aura or shoot with his pistol for a lot more wounds. So in terms of spacing of models on the board, you will max out on being able to do 30-60 wounds in a turn in the very theoretical upper limit under perfect circumstances.
Also, there is no rule keeping poxwalkers from going above the starting strength of the number of models you are allowed to include in the unit when fielding them in your list. The unit can go to infinite size.
There is also no way to get -2 to hit on Morty, sorry.
Oh well even with math shoved right onto paper some people just can't accept it. OKay in fact he can do way more. Just lineup 25mm -28mm base character in line to increase pistol damage.
And few more hidden gems - +2 S +1A can dish another 18 wounds on silence. And getting like 13 units within 7" is easy as hell .
I can get 30 wounds just from plague wind. You are deluded not to see theoretical possiblity for way more than your 30-60 wounds ...
And plague wind is just smaller part ... from psychic powrs alone 43 wounds ... 7 for new contagion spell and 6 from smite. I DON'T EVEN NEED TO USE Silence at all to get more than 60 wounds which is is your so-called "very theoretical upper limit under perfect circumstances."
You don't know your stuff buddy go read rules for plague wind alone to see where just minor part of this possible damage comes.
Also bad math - then show me yours , I have proper one here. 43 wounds from spells not counting aura/ phosphex/pistol/Silence other possible damage (yeah there are such possiblites)
With pistol and spells alone I break your weirdo theory.
And i love how easily some people get triggered by some theoretical scenarios. It was just to show potential of Morty - not that it's easy to actually apply all that damage.
It's like IRL it's easy to win at lotto lottery - you just have to draw correct numbers. Now chance for this to happen ... But still such potential does exist and result is staggering . Just like amounts of wounds I calculated there.
Idk how you can't get over it. You must be boring IRL as hell.
And on top of that you never heard about conga-line of units ? for me it's enough if just line of blob gets within my CC range, everyone else can be 20"away - I don't care and they will die in CC. Makes no logic ? Well doesn't need to but those are rules of this game you DO NOT KNOW.
Also plenty of possible wounds don't even need to be in CC range but pistol or spells which increases ownzone to 18" (I can plague wind unit as long as i see SINGLE model within 18" of Morty to reap 30 wounds).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/10 21:12:02
There is also no way to get -2 to hit on Morty, sorry.
It can be done in the fight phase.. Miasma of Pestilence for -1 and within 6" of Skabiethrax for another -1 in the fight phase
Sure, but people seemed to all be talking about getting a general -2 to hit because they thought there were two different psychic powers, but the CSM one is the same as the DG one.
I use Scabby and I like getting -2 to hit in melee, but realistically Morty needs no help in melee but can get shot out of the sky, so dumping a huge amount of more points into a guy that can't even keep up with morty doesn't help much.
Can't wait to see lists that have Mortarion and Magnus for double brother punching power. Better yet, take a couple of Supreme Command Detachments to get both of those LoW in there along with a bunch of buffing characters. Fill last of the points with cultists and poxwalkers. Shenanigans ensue.
Oh well even with math shoved right onto paper some people just can't accept it. OKay in fact he can do way more. Just lineup 25mm -28mm base character in line to increase pistol damage.
And few more hidden gems - +2 S +1A can dish another 18 wounds on silence. And getting like 13 units within 7" is easy as hell .
I can get 30 wounds just from plague wind. You are deluded not to see theoretical possiblity for way more than your 30-60 wounds ...
And plague wind is just smaller part ... from psychic powrs alone 43 wounds ... 7 for new contagion spell and 6 from smite. I DON'T EVEN NEED TO USE Silence at all to get more than 60 wounds which is is your so-called "very theoretical upper limit under perfect circumstances."
You don't know your stuff buddy go read rules for plague wind alone to see where just minor part of this possible damage comes.
Also bad math - then show me yours , I have proper one here. 43 wounds from spells not counting aura/ phosphex/pistol/Silence other possible damage (yeah there are such possiblites)
With pistol and spells alone I break your weirdo theory.
Ok I'm putting this to bed. The ridiculous asssumptions here are going to stop.
Rant and actual math incoming:
Spoiler:
Mortarion can do wounds in the psychic phase, shooting phase, and the assault phase.
In the psychic phase, you can dream that he would do 17 wounds. Realistically, he's casting the -1 to hit power on himself and then blades if he needs it, but let's say you're going all out offensive and using smite and curse of the leper. Against the ideal target (t3 guardsmen or something), you need a 3+ on all 7 dice. That will happen 1 in 20 attempts. But say you get it. Then you smite (roughly a 85% chance to cast). If you're in range to get denied, the math gets tricky based on what you rolled but, on average, you'll get denied roughly 30% of the time that you succeed to cast. Once you've cast, you need to roll high enough to go for a d6 damage smite. That's just under 10%. And then you need to roll a 6. So 1/6 odds. So in nearly 2% of your smite attempts, you'll get to do 6 mortal wounds. In one out of 1000 psychic phases, you will do 13 mortal wounds. On normal turns when you smite and cast a defensive power, you're probably averaging 2 mortal wounds.
In the shooting phase, things can get very ridiculous if you have an opponent that is literally inting and feeding you 3+ wound models. In the dream world, you have a line of 17 different squads who are literally screaming at you to end their existence. (Note that there are very few 3+ wound models that are also on 28mm bases, which is necessary for this strategem). So you've got your friend with an army of nothing but acolytes and inquisitors trying to position in such a way that you can tell the Internet that this actually happened. I'm actually not sure if you need to hit everyone or just your original target, but either way it's actually on average that you'll hit and wound all but one time, even if you hit individually. So toss on 51 more wounds. Never mind that no sane opponent will ever let you line up more than 4 or 5 squads, and that most of those squads will comprise of single wound models, so realistically you're getting a true theoretical maximum of 10 wounds most likely. I think doing 6-7 is a good turn and 4-5 is a good representative average expectation. Tbh, the grenades are probably a better bet against most chaff units. On average, 7 attacks, 7 hits, 5 wounds, 4 dead models in one squad. But the pistol can snipe a character if it has 3 or fewer wounds so that's nice.
The maximum amount of wounds that Mortarion can do in close combat is 18. That is against 5+ save or worse models (or 3+ save models with no invuln, but that are also 3 wounds each, or have more than 18 wounds). His nurglings can add more attacks (6 in a perfect situation) and can on average even wound guardsmen 4-5 times, but they likely will only take 3 wounds after saving throws. So 21 wounds from cc attacks. This is actually not at all terribly unlikely unless you're against MEQ.
Of course, he has his 7" aura ability. I think this is where most of the crazy ideas come in. He can, in theory, do tons of wounds if enough squads are close enough to him in the fight phase. If your opponent packs in 20 units (again inting to feed you) within 7", then 10 of them will suffer d3 mortal wounds (20 total basically). But we are not deterred by math. Theoretical maximum! I am capping your inting opponent at 20 squads because most armies don't even have that many units, let alone an opponent actually moving that many units into one spot to put you in range. But maybe you roll all 20 4+ rolls. That is actually slightly upwards of a 1 in a million event. Then you need to roll 20 5+ (less than 1 in 100 million odds). But congrats! You've done 60 mortal wounds!
Back to reality, you'll probably be able to position to get 3 or 4 units in range. Let's call it 4. 4+ to proc the ability means 2 units. D3 means 2 on average. So 4 wounds most likely.
So, in a fairy land, with an opponent actively feeding to try and let Mortarion rack up wounds, you could get 124 wounds in a single turn! This will happen once in every 100,000,000,000,000,000 attempts (order of magnitude approximation). To put this in context, if you could attempt this feat every second, in one billion years, you would have, on average, succeeded once.
End rant.
Realistically, I'm actually probably using the grenades if I don't need to snipe a character. That means that I'll get roughly 30 wounds a turn that Mortarion spends in combat. Not terrible, but nowhere near 200.
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drbored wrote: Can't wait to see lists that have Mortarion and Magnus for double brother punching power. Better yet, take a couple of Supreme Command Detachments to get both of those LoW in there along with a bunch of buffing characters. Fill last of the points with cultists and poxwalkers. Shenanigans ensue.
I've given this a lot of thought, but it's tough to make work. In an ideal world, just use 2 super heavy auxiliary detachments, but you really need 2 battalions for that sweet sweet CP, and most events (even the BRB) only allow 3 detachments at 2k points. 6 CP is just not enough IMO.
If you do a battalion and 1-2 supreme command detachments, you're just a bit too bloated on HQ's IMO. The malefic lords are nice in this regard, but sadly I'm going to an event in October where I can only take 1 Forge World unit. Even if I could take 6, I'm not convinced that I would. Ah who am I kidding that would work really well. Curse you 3 detachment and 0-1 forge world limit!
But yeah big dude(s) plus cultists and poxwalkers will likely be the linchpins of many competitive CSM lists. Will be curious to see how many players omit Magnus in favor of Mortarion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/10 22:06:50
This looks so mean! Thats gonna be one crazy zombie hoard. Bring typhus and necrosius and it will get insane!
Definitely not a casual strat. Typhus and the psychic power will make the poxwalkers str 5 T 5 when it matters.
Would definitely bring the Surgeon instead of Necrosius. Add in the tally man to re-roll their hits...ouch!
The surgeon and tallyman are both elite, I believe, so no reason to not bring them all.
In fact, assuming both the crawler and the hauler are 150 and the elite characters 100 each (and they may be less), you can get the following for roughly 2000: Typhus, Necrosius, chaos lord, tallyman, surgeon, 2 20-strong poxwalkers, 4 10-strong cultist, 3 plague burst cralwers, 1 blight hauler, 2 spawn, and 1 FW dredo dreadnough with a butcher cannon arry AND the hellfire viel. Thats a full brigade! The hellfire viel gives a 5++ within 6" and the hauler gives cover within 7".
EDIT: I got excited and counted the dredo dread as an elite. It can work though, I'm just not there yet.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/10 22:33:17
Hive City Dweller wrote: Interesting to see all the rules released so far. I have a few questions about old Chaos units used in the army.
1) Do you see a role for defilers? Seems to me they provide useful long-range shooting (something that's generally lacking in codex) and some durability and can be a threat up close.
2) What do you guys think about Cultists? Yes they're cheaper than pox-walkers, and yes they have access to shooting attacks but they don't benefit from a lot of the special rules that the pox walkers do. The best role I see them in is bubble wrap for the artillery tank in the backfield.
3) How do you guys feel about Predator tanks? I've never used them before and they seem decent choice on paper. Is there any shortcoming to using them for long range fire support?
1_ unfortunately without the deamon forge stratagem I cannot see a role for him, usually he is the resistent model who soak up fire and take space, but guess what, the whole DG does it.
2_ Exactly, they can afford to stay in the backfield camping objectives and screening the artillery, I can't see better role than that
3_ He s not as though ad the plague crawler but it gives you the anti tank you need, better field a couple helped by the daemon prince, it's the only real anti tank choiche we have
I wonder how deathguard lists will evolve now that the full codex is about to come out, and we know about the new units and such from leaks.
Gunline? The new mortar tank is quite cheap and quite shooty. It can even shoot from out of line of sight. Yet, there is also Mortarion, who works best at close quarters where he is a massive beat stick. On the other hand, if we use Mortarion as the lynchpin of an army, he needs to be supported. So, run him up with other fast units like that new bloat drone with Fleshmower? Teleport blightlord terminators in near him? They cannot take wounds for him though.
Advance stuff up slowly but firing steadily? Backed with Auras, like that new daemon engine has the aura that gives +1 cover. Its a pretty good aura to have. But then again, if we did that, Mortarion wouldn't fit that startegy because he is meant to charge in asap and kill stuff and he moves 12 inches. (But he is almost too good to leave out).
Seems like there are nice synergies in various things, but from an overall strategy perspective, you would be better off focusing on one. I mean, you could try and do a bit of everything, but from my experience, such an army will usually be less efficient and less effective compared to one that focuses on just one aspect.
So, if shooty, then use the mortar tanks, possibly with the new daemon engine and advance up the board shooting. Then plague marines, blightlords, pox walkers might also be part of it. Mortarion might be there more to lend his auras, and to serve as a counter charge force.
If assault focused, then have Mortarion, bloat drones with fleshmowers, possibly plague drones also. And maybe deep strike in blightlord termis.
I see Mortarion as too good not to have in a DG army though. So, always have him if you can.
Oh well even with math shoved right onto paper some people just can't accept it. OKay in fact he can do way more. Just lineup 25mm -28mm base character in line to increase pistol damage.
And few more hidden gems - +2 S +1A can dish another 18 wounds on silence. And getting like 13 units within 7" is easy as hell .
I can get 30 wounds just from plague wind. You are deluded not to see theoretical possiblity for way more than your 30-60 wounds ...
And plague wind is just smaller part ... from psychic powrs alone 43 wounds ... 7 for new contagion spell and 6 from smite. I DON'T EVEN NEED TO USE Silence at all to get more than 60 wounds which is is your so-called "very theoretical upper limit under perfect circumstances."
You don't know your stuff buddy go read rules for plague wind alone to see where just minor part of this possible damage comes.
Also bad math - then show me yours , I have proper one here. 43 wounds from spells not counting aura/ phosphex/pistol/Silence other possible damage (yeah there are such possiblites)
With pistol and spells alone I break your weirdo theory.
Ok I'm putting this to bed. The ridiculous asssumptions here are going to stop.
Rant and actual math incoming:
Spoiler:
Mortarion can do wounds in the psychic phase, shooting phase, and the assault phase.
In the psychic phase, you can dream that he would do 17 wounds. Realistically, he's casting the -1 to hit power on himself and then blades if he needs it, but let's say you're going all out offensive and using smite and curse of the leper. Against the ideal target (t3 guardsmen or something), you need a 3+ on all 7 dice. That will happen 1 in 20 attempts. But say you get it. Then you smite (roughly a 85% chance to cast). If you're in range to get denied, the math gets tricky based on what you rolled but, on average, you'll get denied roughly 30% of the time that you succeed to cast. Once you've cast, you need to roll high enough to go for a d6 damage smite. That's just under 10%. And then you need to roll a 6. So 1/6 odds. So in nearly 2% of your smite attempts, you'll get to do 6 mortal wounds. In one out of 1000 psychic phases, you will do 13 mortal wounds. On normal turns when you smite and cast a defensive power, you're probably averaging 2 mortal wounds.
In the shooting phase, things can get very ridiculous if you have an opponent that is literally inting and feeding you 3+ wound models. In the dream world, you have a line of 17 different squads who are literally screaming at you to end their existence. (Note that there are very few 3+ wound models that are also on 28mm bases, which is necessary for this strategem). So you've got your friend with an army of nothing but acolytes and inquisitors trying to position in such a way that you can tell the Internet that this actually happened. I'm actually not sure if you need to hit everyone or just your original target, but either way it's actually on average that you'll hit and wound all but one time, even if you hit individually. So toss on 51 more wounds. Never mind that no sane opponent will ever let you line up more than 4 or 5 squads, and that most of those squads will comprise of single wound models, so realistically you're getting a true theoretical maximum of 10 wounds most likely. I think doing 6-7 is a good turn and 4-5 is a good representative average expectation. Tbh, the grenades are probably a better bet against most chaff units. On average, 7 attacks, 7 hits, 5 wounds, 4 dead models in one squad. But the pistol can snipe a character if it has 3 or fewer wounds so that's nice.
The maximum amount of wounds that Mortarion can do in close combat is 18. That is against 5+ save or worse models (or 3+ save models with no invuln, but that are also 3 wounds each, or have more than 18 wounds). His nurglings can add more attacks (6 in a perfect situation) and can on average even wound guardsmen 4-5 times, but they likely will only take 3 wounds after saving throws. So 21 wounds from cc attacks. This is actually not at all terribly unlikely unless you're against MEQ.
Of course, he has his 7" aura ability. I think this is where most of the crazy ideas come in. He can, in theory, do tons of wounds if enough squads are close enough to him in the fight phase. If your opponent packs in 20 units (again inting to feed you) within 7", then 10 of them will suffer d3 mortal wounds (20 total basically). But we are not deterred by math. Theoretical maximum! I am capping your inting opponent at 20 squads because most armies don't even have that many units, let alone an opponent actually moving that many units into one spot to put you in range. But maybe you roll all 20 4+ rolls. That is actually slightly upwards of a 1 in a million event. Then you need to roll 20 5+ (less than 1 in 100 million odds). But congrats! You've done 60 mortal wounds!
Back to reality, you'll probably be able to position to get 3 or 4 units in range. Let's call it 4. 4+ to proc the ability means 2 units. D3 means 2 on average. So 4 wounds most likely.
So, in a fairy land, with an opponent actively feeding to try and let Mortarion rack up wounds, you could get 124 wounds in a single turn! This will happen once in every 100,000,000,000,000,000 attempts (order of magnitude approximation). To put this in context, if you could attempt this feat every second, in one billion years, you would have, on average, succeeded once.
End rant.
Realistically, I'm actually probably using the grenades if I don't need to snipe a character. That means that I'll get roughly 30 wounds a turn that Mortarion spends in combat. Not terrible, but nowhere near 200.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: Can't wait to see lists that have Mortarion and Magnus for double brother punching power. Better yet, take a couple of Supreme Command Detachments to get both of those LoW in there along with a bunch of buffing characters. Fill last of the points with cultists and poxwalkers. Shenanigans ensue.
I've given this a lot of thought, but it's tough to make work. In an ideal world, just use 2 super heavy auxiliary detachments, but you really need 2 battalions for that sweet sweet CP, and most events (even the BRB) only allow 3 detachments at 2k points. 6 CP is just not enough IMO.
If you do a battalion and 1-2 supreme command detachments, you're just a bit too bloated on HQ's IMO. The malefic lords are nice in this regard, but sadly I'm going to an event in October where I can only take 1 Forge World unit. Even if I could take 6, I'm not convinced that I would. Ah who am I kidding that would work really well. Curse you 3 detachment and 0-1 forge world limit!
But yeah big dude(s) plus cultists and poxwalkers will likely be the linchpins of many competitive CSM lists. Will be curious to see how many players omit Magnus in favor of Mortarion.
If you want max potential it would be the following:
-Silence max wounds= 6 hits (6x Death to the False Emperor)=12 hits x 6 damage= 72 wounds (don't forget the psychic power 6s to wound does an additional wound)= 84 max wounds from silence
-max plague wind damage is 50 against a massive conscript blob
-lantern max damage (if some crazy reason 18 diffrent units with 1" bases were all in a row 18x3dmg = 54 wounds
-with is aura he could then do mortal damage to 7 of those same units x3 dmg= 21
This gives him an almost impossible damage cap of 209 damage. You should go to Vegas if you did this!!
I'm seriously considering allying in a Supreme Command Detachment of Be'lakor and 2 Malefic Lords with my Death Guard. Be'lakor can cast Warptime on Morty to get him into combat quickly, plus he can take one other power (like Prescience or something) to buff another unit. If he doesn't have something else to buff, there's always Smite. Be'lakor is also pretty beastly in combat with his AP-5 sword. Plus the Malefic Lords are cheap and can throw out Smites of their own. Not too shabby for 300 points. Yes we're expecting a nerf or at least a price bump to Malefic Lords, but even after that they may still be worth taking, just not easily spammed.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
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11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 