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 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Are Boltguns 'R Bad the new Scatbike 'R OP?

Naw, people have been claiming boltguns are bad for a while, even back in 6th/7th era. They just happened to be saying Boltguns were bad because they weren't often fighting against many GEQ/Orks/Gants, because people didn't play them often, because Boltguns ignored their armor.

That wasn't the reason, because many marine lists had like 8 boltguns in them.

Mine didn't, so there. #RealSpaceMarineArmy

That was your choice to be suboptimal.

Are you calling Gladius sub optimal?

6 Tac squads with Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav, + 2 10 man Devastator Squads w/4 Heavies. Double demi-co rocking 36 bolters minimum for me, not counting Storm Bolters on the obvious Rhinos/Pods.

If you were deciding to actually put points into buying the Rhinos or Razorbacks, yeah Gladius was bad. It was Demi Battle Company with free Razorbacks doing everything.

Here's a question - I've got several IG squads that have grenade launchers, and I simply do not wish to/don't have the parts to swap them out. What is the best order to regularly use for this squad - is it still FRFSRF or is there a different order, say maybe Take Aim, that would benefit this sort of squad better?

 Stormonu wrote:
Here's a question - I've got several IG squads that have grenade launchers, and I simply do not wish to/don't have the parts to swap them out. What is the best order to regularly use for this squad - is it still FRFSRF or is there a different order, say maybe Take Aim, that would benefit this sort of squad better?

The best one? Stay On the Shelf!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Are Boltguns 'R Bad the new Scatbike 'R OP?

Naw, people have been claiming boltguns are bad for a while, even back in 6th/7th era. They just happened to be saying Boltguns were bad because they weren't often fighting against many GEQ/Orks/Gants, because people didn't play them often, because Boltguns ignored their armor.

That wasn't the reason, because many marine lists had like 8 boltguns in them.

Mine didn't, so there. #RealSpaceMarineArmy

That was your choice to be suboptimal.

Are you calling Gladius sub optimal?

6 Tac squads with Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav, + 2 10 man Devastator Squads w/4 Heavies. Double demi-co rocking 36 bolters minimum for me, not counting Storm Bolters on the obvious Rhinos/Pods.

If you were deciding to actually put points into buying the Rhinos or Razorbacks, yeah Gladius was bad. It was Demi Battle Company with free Razorbacks doing everything.

Imo the razorbacks were a red herring, the best Gladius builds used Rhinos.

 Stormonu wrote:
Here's a question - I've got several IG squads that have grenade launchers, and I simply do not wish to/don't have the parts to swap them out. What is the best order to regularly use for this squad - is it still FRFSRF or is there a different order, say maybe Take Aim, that would benefit this sort of squad better?

Just get one of those cheapo 5-man boxes to swap out your guys.

That said, FRFSRF would still work for the squad - that one guy just has the ability to do only 1-3 hits at S3, instead of 2-4.

M.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are you calling Gladius sub optimal?

I got a small flowchart for your benefit.

Is it a Marine army?
-- Yes
----It's sub-optimal.
------ What if it wins a lot of tournaments?
-------- Still sub-optimal.
-- No
---- It's overpowered.
------ What if it never wins?
-------- Don't care OP.

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are you calling Gladius sub optimal?

I got a small flowchart for your benefit.

Is it a Marine army?
-- Yes
----It's sub-optimal.
------ What if it wins a lot of tournaments?
-------- Still sub-optimal.
-- No
---- It's overpowered.
------ What if it never wins?
-------- Don't care OP.

Ahh, very elegant. Thank you.

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are you calling Gladius sub optimal?

I got a small flowchart for your benefit.

Is it a Marine army?
-- Yes
----It's sub-optimal.
------ What if it wins a lot of tournaments?
-------- Still sub-optimal.
-- No
---- It's overpowered.
------ What if it never wins?
-------- Don't care OP.

Once again Melissia, the ever bitter Sisters player, misses the grand point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Are Boltguns 'R Bad the new Scatbike 'R OP?

Naw, people have been claiming boltguns are bad for a while, even back in 6th/7th era. They just happened to be saying Boltguns were bad because they weren't often fighting against many GEQ/Orks/Gants, because people didn't play them often, because Boltguns ignored their armor.

That wasn't the reason, because many marine lists had like 8 boltguns in them.

Mine didn't, so there. #RealSpaceMarineArmy

That was your choice to be suboptimal.

Are you calling Gladius sub optimal?

6 Tac squads with Grav-Cannon, Combi-Grav, + 2 10 man Devastator Squads w/4 Heavies. Double demi-co rocking 36 bolters minimum for me, not counting Storm Bolters on the obvious Rhinos/Pods.

If you were deciding to actually put points into buying the Rhinos or Razorbacks, yeah Gladius was bad. It was Demi Battle Company with free Razorbacks doing everything.

Imo the razorbacks were a red herring, the best Gladius builds used Rhinos.

You missed the point of the matter that anything bought in the Gladius was bad, and you were to use Battle Demi Company. Gladius is a bit different because Battle Demi Company was a sub thing going on in there.

Was that cogent?

Wait, are you saying the demi company got free Razorbacks? Because they didn't. Free transports required the full company in Gladius.

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are you calling Gladius sub optimal?

I got a small flowchart for your benefit.

Is it a Marine army?
-- Yes
----It's sub-optimal.
------ What if it wins a lot of tournaments?
-------- Still sub-optimal.
-- No
---- It's overpowered.
------ What if it never wins?
-------- Don't care OP.

Pretty much the entirety of the "SM are underpowered" threads and "X is OP threads summed up. Well done.

Some won't be satisfied till Guard are back to being the NPC faction.

 Quickjager wrote:
Oh look it is MoO, lets get some quotes on his previous opinions.

 master of ordinance wrote:
In all honesty I just want to fell like the glory factions did over the past few years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets get with Melissa as well.

 Melissia wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol that is a horrible argument; that is like the dumb GK players from last ed. saying "Dreadknights are fine! It doesn't matter they're overperforming because they're all we got!"

Maybe you feel that way, but you know what? Don't care. We've played the same army lists since 3rd edition and basically the same since 2nd. No army is in even remotely a similar situation than us, even Grey Knights.

We finally move from being a bottom tier, forgettable list to one that can actually contend competitively. It's fething nice to see. If only GW actually gave us new units, I might give a damn about you feeling like this is a horrible argument. But they don't. So I don't.

Just wanted to get that in. Anyway, FRFSRF is an amazing order always has been. I have said ONLY CONSCRIPTS SHOULDN'T HAVE IT, because of the insane value they get out of it and that remains my stance.

If Conscripts *couldn't* have access to FRFSRF, what would they be good for?

M.

Conscript value is in board control, not FRF, SRF.

If you take 100 shots with Conscripts... 25 of them at close range... you get about 33 hits.

About 11 wound anything T4 or 5.

If those units have a 3+ save, about 4 will fall down. If that unit is in cover, you get about 2. So, while 100 shots sounds like a lot to a Marine player...

66 hits, 33 wounds, 11 dead / 5 dead...

It's really dick-all in the IG's book, in terms of Damage Output for the Points. Even going by the Index, pre FAQ.

75 pts - 25 Conscripts
11 pts - 1/3 of a Commissar [Ld Fix]
15 pts - 1/2 of a Company Commander [issue the order]

101 pts to kill 2-4 Marines, 12" away.

Vs

5 Scions w/ 2x Plasma Gun, 1x Plasma Pistol - I don't have the codex, I assume they're probably fewer points.

= 2 wounds, wherever you can drop at 9-12" - Way better value, the higher the model cost of the target. Better target acquisition.

Vs Wyverns

= 2 wounds, anywhere within 48" - Also way better value vs hordes, and high-value targets [rerolling 6's is nearly double damage vs tough targets]. Better target acquisition.

Vs Basically anything in the Guard that doesn't need to get orders, for 100 points

= 2 wounds, at whatever range. - Better at anything except board control. Probably better target acquisition, because you don't have to be a gakky conscript 12" away from something.


FRF, SRF wasn't that great on Conscripts pre-nerf, and now it only works half the time. You're almost always better off issuing a different order to a different squad. Re-roll 1's to Scions. Re-roll 1's to anything with a decent gun. There's just so many better targets for orders, even pre-nerf.

Honestly the most powerful part of FRFSRF on conscripts was purely psychological. You need no more than look at the fallout of early 8th where people were claiming they were killing titans to see that. Theoretically with enough time and patience they can, but any sane IG player knows they're pointless for that. However, just because you know it's mostly just a cool looking laser lightshow and an excuse to roll a stupid amount of dice, doesn't mean your opponent does. Ironically this came to bite us in the FAQ but it was amusing to use while it lasted.

In the past, when conscripts were pre nerf and I was testing them out, first order I would do every game would be a FRFSRF volley against something the opponent cared about. I would then inform him I was firing in the neighborhood of 60-120 shots and ask them to help me roll dice. 9 times out of 10 that opponent would absolutely freak out and pour everything they could into the conscripts. Granted I have a very casual meta but it worked. All it took was one wound getting through on something like a knight or a land raider and without fail, the opponent would go "My god, they can kill EVERYTHING!" Didn't matter that it took over a hundred dice hitting on 5's and wounding on 6's, their precious centerpiece got wounded by an inbred farmer from a backwater who learned how to hold his rifle yesterday, and that could not stand.

That being said conscript FRFSRF is absolutely useful against light infantry, such as other guard players, orks, and nids, and even to an extent space marines, but for the most part I only used it when my opponent tried to ignore the conscripts to shoot the more important units behind them. Simply put the sheer amount of effort in rolling all those dice doesn't really pay off for such little damage, so I often found myself using stuff like Forwards for the Emperor on them to get them in my opponent's face. This was why I always laughed when people were claiming conscripts would be pulling it in a tournament environment too. It takes FOREVER to roll all those dice. If you're playing with limited time and using a horde army, the last thing you need to be doing is rolling 100+ dice per screening unit in the shooting phase and robbing yourself of time. If I had bothered doing tournament play I honestly doubt I would bother with shooting with conscripts half the time, just due to the fact that IG has so many other units that can be dealing actual damage in the time it takes you to do those lasgun volleys.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Conscript value is in board control, not FRF, SRF.

It's good math, but they're even worse without it. And, since they've only got a 50/50 chance to even accept that order...yeah. For only a point more per model you get so much more!

M.

 Quickjager wrote:
Anyway, FRFSRF is an amazing order always has been. I have said ONLY CONSCRIPTS SHOULDN'T HAVE IT, because of the insane value they get out of it and that remains my stance.

Conscripts still not nerfed enough, huh?

Compared to grots? No.

 Quickjager wrote:
Just wanted to get that in..

Ah yes, more out of context quotes from someone who was arguing that Celestine should be nerfed to the ground because armies other than Sisters used her, and now is dishonestly using the quote to try to make an ad hominem attack... in a way that isn't even on-topic. Glorious... and predictable. Another addition for the ignore list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Conscripts still not nerfed enough, huh?

The impression that I get is that conscripts will never be nerfed enough, unless a single five-man tactical squad armed with just boltguns can eliminate them in one turn... without assaulting.

Quickjager wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Oh look it is MoO, lets get some quotes on his previous opinions.

 master of ordinance wrote:
In all honesty I just want to fell like the glory factions did over the past few years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets get with Melissa as well.

 Melissia wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol that is a horrible argument; that is like the dumb GK players from last ed. saying "Dreadknights are fine! It doesn't matter they're overperforming because they're all we got!"

Maybe you feel that way, but you know what? Don't care. We've played the same army lists since 3rd edition and basically the same since 2nd. No army is in even remotely a similar situation than us, even Grey Knights.

We finally move from being a bottom tier, forgettable list to one that can actually contend competitively. It's fething nice to see. If only GW actually gave us new units, I might give a damn about you feeling like this is a horrible argument. But they don't. So I don't.

Just wanted to get that in. Anyway, FRFSRF is an amazing order always has been. I have said ONLY CONSCRIPTS SHOULDN'T HAVE IT, because of the insane value they get out of it and that remains my stance.

Wow, strawman much? Melissa argues about her faction being on 23 year old models and having struggled with terrible rules and virtually no updates and I state that I just want to enjoy winning and not being roflstomped by some nobody pushing his/her marines forwards like a braindead moron because the power discrepancy was that over the past few years, and you try (and fail to turn it into an excuse to discount our arguments.
How ver Marine player of you.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Anyway, FRFSRF is an amazing order always has been. I have said ONLY CONSCRIPTS SHOULDN'T HAVE IT, because of the insane value they get out of it and that remains my stance.

Conscripts still not nerfed enough, huh?

Conscripts will never be nerfed enough. Likewise Guard units will always be too powerful because lasguns might kill a marine.

Martel732 wrote:Compared to grots? No.

Grots are.... What? Cheap squishy and cowardly and historically worse than conscripts, statswise.

Sisters always had boring rules, but they weren't a bad army at all.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sisters always had boring rules, but they weren't a bad army at all.

You can tell by all those tournaments they have won since the beginning of their existence.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sisters always had boring rules, but they weren't a bad army at all.

I would say the opposite is true. What we had/have were generally awesome and very fun, but we weren't exactly top tier, due to just not having answers.

Martel732 wrote:
Compared to grots? No.

This is truth.

Grotz need a buff, or a points decrease.

-1S, -1T, -1Sv, -1/3shots, and yet the same price as Conscripts. They don’t even have access to Chapter Tactics, like Conscripts (though that should change in time) - and there are some good tactics+orders.

The only thing they do have going for them though is the 1d3 models lost instead of having to take a morale check - though given how Conscripts were changed, I wouldn’t count on this lasting past next years Chapter Approved; or faq cycle at least.

The Runtherd needs to be a squad upgrade, so it can Deep Strike/infiltrate (when Tactics come out); so the grits can properly tie things up.

Another nerf thread...