What do you think about electric cars?

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**Andrew1975**

Aside from when you're looking at a full day of work and running around after the kids and there isn't half an hour to spare before dinnertime, but your charge won't last that long.

Your charge won't last 310 miles? You drive more than that on an average day? If so then yeah, maybe its not a good choice for you, most people dont drive that much. Most people could just plug in at night and wake up with a full charge. No need to even spend the 10 minutes at the gas station like i used to. I do it and there are days that I drive close to 310 miles in a day, but I'm an exception not a rule. Most people drive under 100 miles a day.

There's also the probability that $30K-plus is well beyond a one-car-family's budget...

I think you mean potentiality. Which is a fair point, its not as cheap as an econobox......its firmly in midrange sedan territory, which is what it is. Ok, then most any new car is beyond their budget. There will be used ones. Your argument here is that cars are too expensive not EVS. The fact of the matter is the 35K EV is going to be cheaper in the long run. Most people replace their cars when they can not afford the maintenance anymore, then they have to buy a new car. EVs are very simple machines, and as long as you do not abuse the battery by letting it sit fully charged or running it down to 0 all the time it is estimated that the life of these cars will go beyond 500K miles. In that time most people would have bought, replaced and maintained 3 ICE cars. Thats a whole lot of savings.

**Techpriestsupport**

Vulcan wrote:
Gitzbitah wrote:
Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?

That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.

The electric version of the Focus is 29k.

The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.

Exactly.

Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.

Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.

There is a system called "liquid electricity" that can recharge an electric car in minutes. See: http://www.notesvillage.com/notesvillage/seminars/seminarcontent.php?value=5

**Peregrine**

The range argument is pretty hilarious when my partner has a plug-in hybrid with ~35 miles of range on battery and has to get gas every two months or so, on a 9 gallon tank. Yeah, electric cars aren't great for long road trips, but they're fine for the vast majority of driving.

**Andrew1975**

Peregrine wrote:
The range argument is pretty hilarious when my partner has a plug-in hybrid with ~35 miles of range on battery and has to get gas every two months or so, on a 9 gallon tank. Yeah, electric cars aren't great for long road trips, but they're fine for the vast majority of driving.

For sure. But even in extreme electric cars work well for the most part. I drive a lot. 1600 miles a month...and thats just work miles. I never have to stop at the Supercharger, but its great to know that they are there for cross country trips and such.

**Necros**

Going over it in my head, I really don't think they're that bad for road trips. If you have a 300 mile range, you'll drive, say, 250 miles+, 4+ hours at average speeds?.. By that time you would most likely want to stop, pee, poop, eat something, and overall take a break and stretch your legs and do something besides be in the car. The time it takes to do all that, you'll be almost fully charged again and back on the road. Will be even better when the v3 supercharges are all over, and the other public chargers get faster too.

I was just watching a youtube video today where a guy did a 1000 mile road trip from NY to florida in 1 day, he was stopping more frequently and only charging up a little past half way because the charging speeds are faster when your battery is lower, or something like that

**AndrewGPaul**

Even Robert De Niro is shilling electric cars now, I see.

widespread electric car ownership still has several hurdles to overcome here - and range isn't necessarily one of them. The first is charging - a large number of people, especially in cities have on-street parking, so charging at home isn't an option until the council installs charging points on all the pavements (sidewalks). Running a cable across the pavement is asking for a lawsuit when someone trips over it.

At work, the situation isn't necessarily any better, especially now since some councils are thinking of taxing parking spaces.

Once that's solved, now we need to consider the electricity distribution network. We're already turning a blind eye to the problem of electricity generation here; old power stations reaching end of life with nothing obvious to replace them.

I've heard anecdotally that battery degradation is turning out to be less of a problem than first anticipated, and that at present depreciation isn't an issue either (although that's mostly due to demand exceeding supply; I'm sure that'll change in time). The Sam Vimes "boots" problem still applies, though - if you can't afford the upfront cost, then the ongoing costs are irrelevant, regardless of whether they'll end up lower in total over the lifetime of the car. I'll say no more on that otherwise it'll get "political".

If electric car ownership becomes widespread before the charging infrastructure or vehicle range increases sufficiently, I wonder if hiring a car for one-off trips might become more common? At the moment my commute is 30 miles each way; 60 miles a day. Easily within the capacity of an electric car. If I need to make a long-distance journey, I could hire something for that annual trip to Warhammer World or whatnot.

I'd need to look at the numbers to see if I'd still be better off overall, but it might work out.

**Kilkrazy**

Numbers of EVs and charging points are a bit chicken and egg, aren't they?

Like you I do a medium commute of about 50 miles there and back each day.

Apart from the up-front cost, the key problem with an electric car is that I can't possibly install a charger at my home, as I don't have off-street parking (or any parking at all, actually.) Therefore I would be reliant on the two chargers at Redbridge Park and Ride in Oxford, or the two chargers in the Waitrose car park in Henley.

However these are merely problems of pump-priming. If the UK government is serious about promoting transition to EVs, they need to invest in the infrastructure at all levels, from baseline generation to distribution network to street-side charging.

**Moscha**

As my car is turning 10 years this summer, I am considering my options for the coming years.

I have been driving 3 different cars in 20 years so far.
The first two have been used cars, and my actual one was a new one.

Back then, 2009, we had an economic crisis which was also affecting the sales of the car manufacturers. Government decided to set up a program that gave you 2500 EUR extra if you sent your old car to the compactor.
My old one had been broken down at 230 000 km, and would have needed some electric device replaced, which had a price tag of 1.000 EUR on it.
So I ordered a new car on the internet, an Opel Astra GTC "Adam Opel Edition" with no additional extras , and I paid for my new car, brand new, less than 13.000 EUR.

It was a very reliable car until the last 2 or 3 years, and now it's getting more and more expensive to keep it running.

If considering that my entry for this middle class car was really, really cheap, but keeping in mind what I paid for maintenance and gas over the whole time, I think it will be fairly reasonable to get an electric car.
I commute 60 km every day, that is no problem at all. I do a 180 km drive every 2 weeks or so, even that should be no problem with a charged battery.

And in addition, I really consider leasing a car instead of buying a new one.

**Frazzled**

Peregrine wrote:
The range argument is pretty hilarious when my partner has a plug-in hybrid with ~35 miles of range on battery and has to get gas every two months or so, on a 9 gallon tank. Yeah, electric cars aren't great for long road trips, but they're fine for the vast majority of driving.

In urban environments yes.

**Kilkrazy**

80% of the population of the developed world live in urban environments.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:
80% of the population of the developed world live in urban environments.

I am not disagreeing. I am just stating a fact.

**Andrew1975**

The charging infrastructure does need work for sure, but its coming around. Its still very early in the adoption stage for electric cars. Most people that own their own home and can set up charging should do fine, as that number grows more stations will be put into place. Until then there are plenty of ICE cars for people living in apartments and such. EV manufacturers or other private companies need to step up and create more charging infrastructure. In the US the only company taking that step freely is Tesla. Volkswagen is also building more charging infrastructure, but that was more of a deal to mitigate "Diesel Gate". It would be nice to see charging stations at every gas station. Here in the US, Tesla has teamed up with Sheets, so at many of their stations there are banks of superchargers, its pretty nice because for gas stations Sheets has pretty decent food and other amenities.

There are also what are called "Destination Superchargers" where a business has installed had Tesla install a charger, these are usually at hotels or restaurants. There are a awful lot of them.

Lastly there is an app called plug share. This app allows you to list your personal charger for use, or possibly your small bushiness own charger for public use. I'm not exactly sure how it works as I've never needed to use it. But when you pull up the map it show chargers all over the place that people will allow you to use, many of them small bushiness that are hoping you will come in and spend a few bucks to offset the costs of filling up. It also lists the type and charging rate of the charger, so this is good for all EVs.

As for long trips, when you put in your destination Tesla actually plots your charging along the way (its possible other EVS do this, but I don't have experience there) so long trips are not a problem as long as there is charging infrastructure in your country. The shortest range Tesla is 220 miles, but its unlikely you will get all of that, probably closer to 90% of it from my experience...but i have a heavy foot. So essentially even with the shortest range Tesla you are driving for 4 hours before you need to stop for a recharge. Thats leg stretching, bladder draining, coffee swigging, snack grabbing time......and off you go.

And if people want to know why Im all about Teslas here is why https://www.wired.com/story/audi-e-tron-epa-range-anxiety-batteries/ Essentially lots of "competition" is coming that have not figured out the technology yet. Their battery management is not as good causing the batteries to degrade which makes so many of the arguments people have made on this forum legitimate. Combine that with a lack of charging and I just don't see value and security in these cars.

Also while Tesla is installing its own charging grid European car manufacturers want the EU to pay for their charging https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/ I don't really think its the tax payers jobs to have to pay for infrastructure so that car makers can make money. Could they loan them the money......possibly, but not just give. Even then I think the price if building the charging network should be factored into the price of the cars.

**Moscha**

Latest news: 1000 km range battery is currently developed for use in EVs - > non flammable, made of non organic materials, at least ten times lifetime cycle of current batteries.

https://innolith.com/innolith-energy-technology-brings-1000km-ev-within-range/

**jouso**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Gitzbitah wrote:
Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?

That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.

The electric version of the Focus is 29k.

The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.

Exactly.

Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.

Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.

Good questions. So first off you are trying to compare a compact with a mid size sedan. So lets start with Focus EV 29K vs Modle 3 EV 35K,

Model: 2017 Tesla Model 3
Range: 220 mi battery-only
Battery: 50 kWh lithium-ion
Horsepower: 258 hp
Curb weight: 3,549 lbs
Warranty: 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain

Range: 100 mi battery-only
Horsepower: 143
MSRP: From $29,120
Battery charge time: 20h at 110V, 3.5h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 33.5 kWh lithium-ion

So just on specs you can see the tesla has much more horse power, much more range, and a much larger battery, most of the Tesla Specs are almost double! Not to mention that it also has the much better charging network. So you are getting a larger car with almost twice the performance and range plus a network of chargers for a $6000 difference...oh and the over the air updates that tesla provides, plus the best antitheft system on the market and sentry mode. Thats just on very basic stats. If you want more you are going to have to be more specific with what you want comparisons on.

As for the base model 3 versus a ICE focus. Again the base model 3 is severely going to out perform the ICE focus The focus only has 123 horspower.

Here is a very good article https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/03/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-update-tesla-launches-meteor-to-kill-the-dinosaurs-of-the-auto-industry/ That shows that over 5 years a EV almost covers its upfront costs, and we all know that after 5 years is when the maitenance bills really start to add up on ICE cars....where as Telsas should have almost 0 maintenance costs. Its important to note that this article came when Tesla actually had a maintenance schedule...whcih they have since said was unnecessary. To understand you would have to see the Tesala old maintenance schedule which essentially a very expensive tire rotation every 7000 miles (which you can do yourself or get done anywhere much cheaper) and draining and replacing the brake fluid every 25,000 miles.....any car guy will tell you draining and replacing brake fluid in a sealed system is completely unnecessary and with the actual use that tesla brakes get probably something that doesnt ever need to happen, the classic disk brake system in a Tesla gets such little use it should last forever from pads, to rotors to calipers. Tesla has since admitted as much.

There are a couple of things i about this graph...nobody really know what the repair costs will be with the Tesla, its most people I know that have had a Tesla for 5 years....which is very few admittedly...have not put nearly this much into repairs or maintenance, but this is the writer of the article taking a stab at it I guess. It is much more expensive to get a tesla fixed after an accident. The sensors are very expensive to replace, and since there are few people certified to repair teslas they demand a premium for sure. Since this is usually covered by insurance I dont see this as a real cost.

How has the model 3 not solved you questions for one car family? It can go most everywhere and do everything (there are of course exceptions, but they are rare and extreme....but there are places that horses can still go that cars can't). Fueling is a matter of perspective. How much time have you spent total at the gas station the last 3 months....i havent spent any! My car is fully fueled in the morning. If you have a family you probably need to stop every 310 miles for a half hour anyway!

I have a hard time believing that graph. 4.000 for 5 years of insurance? More like 14.000$. My wife spends less than the average Model 3 insurance rate on gas per year.

https://carbuzz.com/news/model-3-insurance-costs-may-make-you-think-twice-about-buying-a-tesla

As someone mentioned previously, Tesla reliability and parts availability has become some bad some insurers (like Allianz in Germany) refuse to insure them altogether.

The electric cars have lower maintenance costs might be true of Nissans or Fords, certainly not Teslas. And god forbid if you're ever on a minor crash.

A small 5mph crash is enough to total a $100K car
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8bbfo2/all_it_takes_to_total_a_100000_car_is_a_little/

Get this small dent, get a 7.000$ repair bill

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/20/heres-what-7000-of-damage-looks-like-on-a-tesla-model-3/

This?

What would be a minor fender bender for any other car, for a Tesla gets you a $27K repair bill.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/axocko/model_3_accident_guess_the_labor_hourscost_to/

Teslas are expensive hangar queens. If you're lucky they're great cars, but I wouldn't trust them as my only vehicle or even make the economic case for them. The potential for everything to go wrong is just massive.

**Andrew1975**

Thats what insurance is for. By the way when I switched form my Mazda 3 to my Tesla model 3 and my insurance barely went up. Im sure it depends on your driving record z(mine is super clean, no at fault accidents or tickets in 5 years....knock on wood) and what company you choose. Some of the insurance companies do really try to rape you on insurance. I switched from Safeco to AAA. Safeco wanted an extra $2k a year. AAA barely went up.

You can always find weird outlyer situations, but they don't prove a point. I could paste a whole wall full of other companies having issues. From Honda recalling cars.....but deciding what they are going to pay you for them, to cars with transmissions blowing on the first day of use all the way to exhaust catching your $500,000 supercar on fire. Crap happens. I'm also wondering about how truthful your Reddit article really is. Also you showed 1 picture out of the whole collection of damaged pictures. Its like you work for FOX news, give a little glimpse and then tell people its insanity. Stop reaching for straws.

By the way, if you hit something in your Tesla( as opposed to someone hitting you)....you are doing it wrong. The thing gives you tons of warnings if you are even getting close to something. I can also put up many Utube videos of Teslas saving people lives because the collision monitoring stopped them from getting hit.

**Future War Cultist**

The model 3 is the saloon/sedan isn’t it? Is it bucking the trend of declining saloon sales?

**Andrew1975**

Future War Cultist wrote:
The model 3 is the saloon/sedan isn’t it? Is it bucking the trend of declining saloon sales?

They are selling as fast as they can make them. The model S took a hit. I guess it would be considered a Saloon sure. Tesla believes when the Model Y (crossover SUV) comes out some time later this year or early next it will outsell all Teslas combined.

**Necros**

Yeah it's a sedan, kind of similar size to a honda civic I think. That's the one thing about it I don't like, but that's only because I'm so used to driving a SUV. So I'm just going to test drive one and see if I like it, if not I'll wait for the Model Y which will be more cross-over sized, or see what other taller EVs are going to be coming out next.

**Andrew1975**

Necros wrote:
Yeah it's a sedan, kind of similar size to a honda civic I think. That's the one thing about it I don't like, but that's only because I'm so used to driving a SUV. So I'm just going to test drive one and see if I like it, if not I'll wait for the Model Y which will be more cross-over sized, or see what other taller EVs are going to be coming out next.

No, I've had Honda civics...this is larger than an accord even. Its very comparable to my wifes 300 of the inside....not as big on the outside though.

**Frazzled**

Honda accord is 192 in long. 2019 Honda Civic is 183 in per the Honda owners site. Telsa model 3 is 185 in.*

* Personally I find the length of the Civic about perfect, but your mileage may vary.

**Andrew1975**

Frazzled wrote:
Honda accord is 192 in long. 2019 Honda Civic is 183 in per the Honda owners site. Telsa model 3 is 185 in.*

* Personally I find the length of the Civic about perfect, but your mileage may vary.

Maybe I'm thinking of internal space and storage. It feels much bigger on the inside.

**Necros**

Thats good, I'm a big fella and I need space. I kinda miss the old fashioned cars with the gear shift on the steering wheel and bench seats, with wide open legroom under the dashboard. Kinda wondering why EVs aren't like that, they don't need a shift or parking break or anything between the seats, it's just empty storage and a couple USB plugs in the Model 3

**Andrew1975**

Yeah, i used to romance bench seats.....until I drove my friends SS after a fresh armor all treatment and was sliding all over the place. They have no support.

Cars are a very personal thing, I think the best thing you can do is just take one for a test drive. You may like it, you may hate it. The interior design is quite a shock for some people, but once you get used to it, you will wonder why other cars are not like this.

**jouso**

Andrew1975 wrote:

You can always find weird outlyer situations, but they don't prove a point.

Not outliers. Extremely long times for parts and service are a fact (acknowledged by Tesla themselves), much more expensive servicing is also a fact.

Insurance rates substantially above other cars in their class are a consequence of those two issues above.

**Kilkrazy**

Andrew1975 wrote:
The charging infrastructure does need work for sure, but its coming around.

... ... ...

Also while Tesla is installing its own charging grid European car manufacturers want the EU to pay for their charging https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/ I don't really think its the tax payers jobs to have to pay for infrastructure so that car makers can make money. Could they loan them the money......possibly, but not just give. Even then I think the price if building the charging network should be factored into the price of the cars.

To look at this point a different way, governments pay for road building because it's important for the economy that people can move around, and that kind of wide-area infrastructure affects the whole nation and needs good co-ordination. People then buy cars and the cost of the road network is recovered from various types of taxation.

There's no reason EV charger networks couldn't be done on the same basis, particularly where the government is committed to improving air quality.

What we're seeing in Britain though, is a kind of informal public-private partnership. The garages who sell or service EVs have chargers. Lidl and Ikea have chargers in some of their car parks. Local councils are putting chargers into car parks and street side locations. Finally, there are a number of network companies putting chargers into motorway service stations and other strategically useful places, and there are Tesla chargers.

The disadvantage of this approach is that there isn't a proper standard, so you need to carry apps and ID cards for all the different networks you might want to use.

**Andrew1975**

jouso wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:

You can always find weird outlyer situations, but they don't prove a point.

Not outliers. Extremely long times for parts and service are a fact (acknowledged by Tesla themselves), much more expensive servicing is also a fact.

Insurance rates substantially above other cars in their class are a consequence of those two issues above.

I have also acknowledged that parts are hard to come by and repairs are expensive, for now, I've admitted there are infrastructure issues, I'm not sure why you keep harping on the same thing. Do those problems exist with other EVs....I don't know. Who does repair work of smart for 2's, who does repairs on a fisker or even a Kona, what does it cost....I don't know.

The insurance on my Model 3 was not expensive, I did have to shop around and switch insurance companies because the prices I was getting were all over the place. Insurance companies are still trying to figure out how to charge for them. They are expensive to repair, but they are also ranked as the safest cars on the road. All 5 star saftey ratings, even the SUV which is unheard of by the way because the batteries anchor it to the ground so it doesnt get tippy or roll over. Add in that it actively prevents accidents and you can see why some insurance companies like AAA (at least in PA) are giving very good rates on them not much more than I was paying safeco for my Mazda 3, and my Performance model 3 costr twice as much.

**Frazzled**

Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.

I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.

I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.

**Andrew1975**

Frazzled wrote:
Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.

I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.

I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.

Ok, maybe I wasn't clear, but since we were talking about EVs, I figured you knew I was taking about the EV Kona, because this discussion is about EVS. Sure Hyundai mechanics can be found anywhere, but EV Kona mechanics may not be easy to find. Body work is probably the same, but any mechanical features will be EV. The EV Kona was just released this year and last I heard only in certain California markets....that may have changed. I highly doubt every Hyundai dealership can repair the EV Kona.....but maybe they can, I was just throwing names out there.

Oh and its more expensive than a base Model 3. The EV Kona starts at $36,450, The Tesla model 3 starts at $35K, and is by all stats the better car and has a nation wide charging network.

https://insideevs.com/first-hyundai-kona-electric-delivered-u-s/

So until you hear different you can take your Fanboism and feed it to your dogs.

**jouso**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.

I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.

I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.

Sure Hyundai mechanics can be found anywhere, but EV Kona mechanics may not be easy to find. The EV Kona was just released this year and last I heard only in certain California markets....that may have changed. I highly doubt every Hyundai dealership can repair the EV Kona.....but maybe they can, I was just throwing names out there.

Oh and its more expensive than a base Model 3. The EV Kona starts at $35,450, The Tesla model 3 starts at $35K.

Despite what Tesla might want you to believe, electric cars are not any different to service than others. Nissan manages to have their Leafs up and running without any of the issues Tesla has. For quite a few years. Plus the Kona shares a lot of parts with their ICE equivalent model.

The Tesla might start at 35K (36,2 with destination fee) but that's without the advanced driver assistance, colour and interior choice etc the Kona comes standard with.

Tesla will only sell me a model 3 for almost 60K euro, though. The 35.000 Euro model is still a unicorn.

**Frazzled**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.

I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.

I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.

Sure Hyundai mechanics can be found anywhere, but EV Kona mechanics may not be easy to find. The EV Kona was just released this year and last I heard only in certain California markets....that may have changed. I highly doubt every Hyundai dealership can repair the EV Kona.....but maybe they can, I was just throwing names out there.

Oh and its more expensive than a base Model 3. The EV Kona starts at $35,450, The Tesla model 3 starts at $35K, and is by all stats the better car and has a nation wide charging network.

https://insideevs.com/first-hyundai-kona-electric-delivered-u-s/

Yes, most car distributors are able to service their own vehicles. Most standard auto places can service these vehicles. Even Tesla has two places in Austin to service vehicles.
Mid range Tesla 3 is $45K per Car and Driver. Midrange Prius is $30K (Austin). Midrange Leaf is about $33K (Austin).

EDIT: Again, these other vehicles are starting to slip into a half decent price range. Give me a self driving vehicle for $20K the size of a Rogue and you just made my wife's next vehicle.