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 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
About Instant Death was that it effected things it shouldn't

Tyranid Warriors
Zoanthropes.
+others.

Really it's a bad rule.


It really wasn't. It was a great leveller that is somewhat missing from the modern game. Have a SM character rampaging through your ranks? One well placed krak missile later and he's toast. Now, there were units that got caught in the crossfire (both of the above you mentioned we immune to it when in Synapse range so are categorically bad examples), but on the whole it was good. Did you ever experience the alpha strike of the infiltrating, daemonic speed CSM 3.5 dex Lord which could charge you turn 1 and there was literally nothing you could do about it? You would yearn for instant death with that thing going through your lines, luckily it existed back then.


Completely disagree with you, 1 battle cannon shot would literally kill full units of Tyranid Warriors that costed as much as the tank did, how is that good for the game? You know what happened? NO ONE PLAYED WITH WARRIORS, as a nid player in 5th, everyone, even no nid players would tell all other new nid players "See that box of warriors, Dont buy them"

To be fair, even without the ID issue, Warriors weren't viable. The lack of a 3+sv meant lots of multishot anti infantry heavy weapons were spectacularly effective against them (a heavy bolter killed a W3 4+sv 20-30something pt Warrior at the same rate it killed a 14pt W1 Space Marine), and their alternative Synpase options were usually killier and more resilient in general, and often faster to boot (e.g. winged huve tyrant).

Which is a shame as Warriors are among my favorite Tyranid models.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
About Instant Death was that it effected things it shouldn't

Tyranid Warriors
Zoanthropes.
+others.

Really it's a bad rule.


It really wasn't. It was a great leveller that is somewhat missing from the modern game. Have a SM character rampaging through your ranks? One well placed krak missile later and he's toast. Now, there were units that got caught in the crossfire (both of the above you mentioned we immune to it when in Synapse range so are categorically bad examples), but on the whole it was good. Did you ever experience the alpha strike of the infiltrating, daemonic speed CSM 3.5 dex Lord which could charge you turn 1 and there was literally nothing you could do about it? You would yearn for instant death with that thing going through your lines, luckily it existed back then.


Completely disagree with you, 1 battle cannon shot would literally kill full units of Tyranid Warriors that costed as much as the tank did, how is that good for the game? You know what happened? NO ONE PLAYED WITH WARRIORS, as a nid player in 5th, everyone, even no nid players would tell all other new nid players "See that box of warriors, Dont buy them"

To be fair, even without the ID issue, Warriors weren't viable. The lack of a 3+sv meant lots of multishot anti infantry heavy weapons were spectacularly effective against them (a heavy bolter killed a W3 4+sv 20-30something pt Warrior at the same rate it killed a 14pt W1 Space Marine), and their alternative Synpase options were usually killier and more resilient in general, and often faster to boot (e.g. winged huve tyrant).

Which is a shame as Warriors are among my favorite Tyranid models.


I played Warriors a few times in Combat Patrol, without the ID (unless it was against SW and Long fangs with 4 Lascannons) they did great, they are bullet sponges sure, but with 3 wounds, it still took a bit to hurt them even with a 4+ save, remember if they did kill the model you could do wound shenanigans, and if you kept gants in front it helped too.

Primes were better than Tyrants in 5th, they could be in any unit and with the way LW/BS worked they where just as killy as a Tyrant, but now they are a cheap Synapse in unit that can hid, put them with Zoans, Hve guard, even Carnifex's, it was very common to do so. PS: Also everyone took a Doom+Pod no matter what lol, that was 1 of 3 elite slots.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/17 15:44:57


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 skchsan wrote:
Units previously furnished with AV values should have had some sort of AP modifier stat instead of inflating Wound value the way they did.


We could call it save mod mod!

And then, when weapons like melta guns feel too weak, we can have some kind of ability on them to ignore SMM - maybe some kind of "Save mod mod mod".

The possibilities of what can be done with a single d6 roll are LITERALLY LIMITLESS!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/17 15:49:44


 
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
...a heavy bolter killed a W3 4+sv 20-30something pt Warrior at the same rate it killed a 14pt W1 Space Marine...

I wish they had been that cheap. They started at 30 points, but by the time you had given them useful gear, they were often over 40 points. If you went all out silly and gave them all the upgrades, you could get them to 60+ (they were one of those units that had a lot of useless wargear you could waste points on).

Personally I kinda dislike how 8th edition handled them. They were one of the few multi-wound models that did not actually gain any wounds going into 8th edition. Instead their point cost was effectively slashed in half. I kinda wish they had kept the point cost, but improved their statline to make them worth it. The models are large enough to justify it.
Oh well, at least they're somewhat usable these days.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/17 20:18:15


 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:

I mean, this is the big feels-bad with 2nd edition in general. Yeah, it was cool that every vehicle had its own super indepth damage table, but for every game where crazy zany stuff happened like guns blowing off, the vehicle moving out of control, etc, there was a game where the vehicle just bit the dust turn 1 to a random shot.

Lascannon penned, rolled a 6 on the table, your land raider explodes killing everyone instantly and taking out a chunk of your troops too, just like that.

That was by no means exclusive to 2nd edition, though. I bought a Vindicator back when the metal/plastic hybrid kit was first released in 3rd edition, and I didn't get to shoot with it until 5th edition...

   
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I loved the "golden beebee" feel. Always brought a handful of Lascannons (or similar) - on the average shot, it won't 1-round a LR. But a couple in the backfield on scoring units means my opponent needs to consider the possibility...

Felt more engaging than "Fire all a dozen Lascannon (equivelents) into a Leman Russ - I might bracket it this turn!".
   
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I'll go on record as HATING the 3rd and 4th ed damage effects tables. Maybe my first Lascannon shot will make that Russ explode, maybe I'll fire 12 of them at it and do nothing beyond inconveniencing the crew.

That was the big appeal of Warmachine when it first came out, damage stuck around so if you couldn't kill something this turn you at least reduced it's effectiveness and made it easier to kill next turn, and the fact that 8th ed copied it was one of the reasons I gave 40k another chance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/18 17:09:52


 
   
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Bharring wrote:
I loved the "golden beebee" feel. Always brought a handful of Lascannons (or similar) - on the average shot, it won't 1-round a LR. But a couple in the backfield on scoring units means my opponent needs to consider the possibility...

Felt more engaging than "Fire all a dozen Lascannon (equivelents) into a Leman Russ - I might bracket it this turn!".


Are you...are you complaining that 8th edition is NOT DEADLY ENOUGH?

On average a dozen lascannons deal 16 wounds to a leman russ.
   
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Belatedly - and I'm not going back through the thread to see if it has already been mentioned - but the worst current rule in 40k isn't even a written rule. Instead, it's a GW policy that is poisoning the game.

I am, of course, referring to "No model, no rules"

Pull your collective heads out of your backsides, GW, and realise that people/companies making third party parts are a, doing so because you have left a gap in the market you're not willing to fulfil in a reasonable manner; and b, conversion parts (as opposed to proxy models) still require people to buy your damned kits.

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the_scotsman wrote:
Bharring wrote:
I loved the "golden beebee" feel. Always brought a handful of Lascannons (or similar) - on the average shot, it won't 1-round a LR. But a couple in the backfield on scoring units means my opponent needs to consider the possibility...

Felt more engaging than "Fire all a dozen Lascannon (equivelents) into a Leman Russ - I might bracket it this turn!".


Are you...are you complaining that 8th edition is NOT DEADLY ENOUGH?

On average a dozen lascannons deal 16 wounds to a leman russ.

The "golden BB" feel isn't about overall killiness - it's about low-probability high-impact results being possible.

A single Lascannon hit in 7th had a 1/6 chance to pen, then 1/6 chance to explode a LandRaider That's a 1/36 per hit -or a 1/54 per shot for most platforms - chance to wipe out a LandRaider. Don't bank on it, but it can change games.

A single Lascannon hit in 8th has a 0% chance to kill a Land Raider.

In 7th, didn't it average ~10 LC hits to kill a Land Raider? In 8th, doesn't it average ~8 (before CPs/rerolls/etc)? I haven't run the numbers, so I could be off there.

So a single LasCannon was scarier to a Land Raider in 7th, but LasCannons in bulk are scarier to a LandRaider in 8th. That disparity is what I'm referring to as the "Golden BB".

(IIRC, the term comes from a single small arms or low-tech AA shot being capable of downing an advanced warplane, but having a very low chance of it happening.)
   
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 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
About Instant Death was that it effected things it shouldn't

Tyranid Warriors
Zoanthropes.
+others.

Really it's a bad rule.


It really wasn't. It was a great leveller that is somewhat missing from the modern game. Have a SM character rampaging through your ranks? One well placed krak missile later and he's toast. Now, there were units that got caught in the crossfire (both of the above you mentioned we immune to it when in Synapse range so are categorically bad examples), but on the whole it was good. Did you ever experience the alpha strike of the infiltrating, daemonic speed CSM 3.5 dex Lord which could charge you turn 1 and there was literally nothing you could do about it? You would yearn for instant death with that thing going through your lines, luckily it existed back then.


Completely disagree with you, 1 battle cannon shot would literally kill full units of Tyranid Warriors that costed as much as the tank did, how is that good for the game? You know what happened? NO ONE PLAYED WITH WARRIORS, as a nid player in 5th, everyone, even no nid players would tell all other new nid players "See that box of warriors, Dont buy them"



Having played Thallax (T5/3W/4+/6++) extensively in 30k I wonder if the issue here is more that Tyranid Warriors were badly mis-statted than ID being conceptually flawed?

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
About Instant Death was that it effected things it shouldn't

Tyranid Warriors
Zoanthropes.
+others.

Really it's a bad rule.


It really wasn't. It was a great leveller that is somewhat missing from the modern game. Have a SM character rampaging through your ranks? One well placed krak missile later and he's toast. Now, there were units that got caught in the crossfire (both of the above you mentioned we immune to it when in Synapse range so are categorically bad examples), but on the whole it was good. Did you ever experience the alpha strike of the infiltrating, daemonic speed CSM 3.5 dex Lord which could charge you turn 1 and there was literally nothing you could do about it? You would yearn for instant death with that thing going through your lines, luckily it existed back then.


Completely disagree with you, 1 battle cannon shot would literally kill full units of Tyranid Warriors that costed as much as the tank did, how is that good for the game? You know what happened? NO ONE PLAYED WITH WARRIORS, as a nid player in 5th, everyone, even no nid players would tell all other new nid players "See that box of warriors, Dont buy them"



Having played Thallax (T5/3W/4+/6++) extensively in 30k I wonder if the issue here is more that Tyranid Warriors were badly mis-statted than ID being conceptually flawed?


They were. That extra pip of toughness would have made them only susceptible to a handful of weapons compared to the all to easy to find S8 and S9. Strength 10 back in the day was incredibly rare.



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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
About Instant Death was that it effected things it shouldn't

Tyranid Warriors
Zoanthropes.
+others.

Really it's a bad rule.


It really wasn't. It was a great leveller that is somewhat missing from the modern game. Have a SM character rampaging through your ranks? One well placed krak missile later and he's toast. Now, there were units that got caught in the crossfire (both of the above you mentioned we immune to it when in Synapse range so are categorically bad examples), but on the whole it was good. Did you ever experience the alpha strike of the infiltrating, daemonic speed CSM 3.5 dex Lord which could charge you turn 1 and there was literally nothing you could do about it? You would yearn for instant death with that thing going through your lines, luckily it existed back then.


Completely disagree with you, 1 battle cannon shot would literally kill full units of Tyranid Warriors that costed as much as the tank did, how is that good for the game? You know what happened? NO ONE PLAYED WITH WARRIORS, as a nid player in 5th, everyone, even no nid players would tell all other new nid players "See that box of warriors, Dont buy them"



Having played Thallax (T5/3W/4+/6++) extensively in 30k I wonder if the issue here is more that Tyranid Warriors were badly mis-statted than ID being conceptually flawed?


IN older editions they were 2 wounds T5, if they kept that they wouldnt be that strong (still able to bolter them down) but also wouldn't ID them and you would have seen them played during 5th/6th. Every nid player i knew and even most players i knew all agreed they needed to be T5 2 wounds, and kept the upgrade option for 3+ save, remember they were 30pts base back then, they with some upgrades got over 100pts for just 3 of them, an extra 15pts for a unit of 3 to get 3+ wouldnt have been a problem for 5th b.c they were costly. The players that did take them took them with Rending claws and Scything Talons to keep them super cheap.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/18 19:57:31


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 Dysartes wrote:
Belatedly - and I'm not going back through the thread to see if it has already been mentioned - but the worst current rule in 40k isn't even a written rule. Instead, it's a GW policy that is poisoning the game.

I am, of course, referring to "No model, no rules"

Pull your collective heads out of your backsides, GW, and realise that people/companies making third party parts are a, doing so because you have left a gap in the market you're not willing to fulfil in a reasonable manner; and b, conversion parts (as opposed to proxy models) still require people to buy your damned kits.



If I could take over the Towers of Lenton tomorrow, guess what the first edifice I'd start to tear down would be...


This is probably the most pressing issue.
And is especially annoying due to how certain factions are treated with updates to their lines.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Belatedly - and I'm not going back through the thread to see if it has already been mentioned - but the worst current rule in 40k isn't even a written rule. Instead, it's a GW policy that is poisoning the game.

I am, of course, referring to "No model, no rules"

Pull your collective heads out of your backsides, GW, and realise that people/companies making third party parts are a, doing so because you have left a gap in the market you're not willing to fulfil in a reasonable manner; and b, conversion parts (as opposed to proxy models) still require people to buy your damned kits.



If I could take over the Towers of Lenton tomorrow, guess what the first edifice I'd start to tear down would be...


This is probably the most pressing issue.
And is especially annoying due to how certain factions are treated with updates to their lines.
That's not GW's fault, it's Chapterhouse's for ruining a good thing by not playing by the rules.

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 Amishprn86 wrote:

IN older editions they were 2 wounds T5, if they kept that they wouldnt be that strong (still able to bolter them down) but also wouldn't ID them and you would have seen them played during 5th/6th. Every nid player i knew and even most players i knew all agreed they needed to be T5 2 wounds, and kept the upgrade option for 3+ save, remember they were 30pts base back then, they with some upgrades got over 100pts for just 3 of them, an extra 15pts for a unit of 3 to get 3+ wouldnt have been a problem for 5th b.c they were costly. The players that did take them took them with Rending claws and Scything Talons to keep them super cheap.

The last time they were T5 was all the way back in 2nd edition. In 3rd and 4th they were T4 2W.
However back in 4th (I didn't play enough 3rd to remember), Synapse provided immunity from instant death caused by an attacks strength doubling a models toughness. Although not immunity from other forms of ID, like force weapons. That's what made warriors usable in 4th at least.
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Belatedly - and I'm not going back through the thread to see if it has already been mentioned - but the worst current rule in 40k isn't even a written rule. Instead, it's a GW policy that is poisoning the game.

I am, of course, referring to "No model, no rules"

Pull your collective heads out of your backsides, GW, and realise that people/companies making third party parts are a, doing so because you have left a gap in the market you're not willing to fulfil in a reasonable manner; and b, conversion parts (as opposed to proxy models) still require people to buy your damned kits.



If I could take over the Towers of Lenton tomorrow, guess what the first edifice I'd start to tear down would be...


This is probably the most pressing issue.
And is especially annoying due to how certain factions are treated with updates to their lines.
That's not GW's fault, it's Chapterhouse's for ruining a good thing by not playing by the rules.

Is it chapterhouses fault entirely though?

Piracy is to 95% a Service issue after all.

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Not Online!!! wrote:


Piracy is to 95% a Service issue after all.

Sure? At least in this case?

Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
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 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:


Piracy is to 95% a Service issue after all.

Sure? At least in this case?


I mean take a look at the Service gw provides.

Exemple havocs.
Come with two of each hw or 1 chaincannon.
The squad needs 4 heavy weapons.
They implement a new weapon that is a vast improvement for all csm units that can use it.
There is 1 in the box.

They dont sell additional weapons at a decent price ymmv and instead expect me to buy enough havoc kits to fully equip my squads.

It's artificial scarcity 101, however where scarcity is a market oppurtunity appears.

GW 's greed is not helping it in this case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/18 20:45:48


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 Dysartes wrote:
Belatedly - and I'm not going back through the thread to see if it has already been mentioned - but the worst current rule in 40k isn't even a written rule. Instead, it's a GW policy that is poisoning the game.

I am, of course, referring to "No model, no rules"

Pull your collective heads out of your backsides, GW, and realise that people/companies making third party parts are a, doing so because you have left a gap in the market you're not willing to fulfil in a reasonable manner; and b, conversion parts (as opposed to proxy models) still require people to buy your damned kits.

If I could take over the Towers of Lenton tomorrow, guess what the first edifice I'd start to tear down would be...


It's especially galling when that applies to things that are easy to kit-bash. A Land Speeder has index options for dual Heavy Famers, dual Heavy Bolters, and dual Multimeltas. None of those can be built out of the box, but if you've built more than 1000 points of mini-marines you should easily have the parts to build any of them without much trouble. And they are far from the only example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/18 22:30:39


 
   
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Jumping back on Sweeping Advance -- it fried things like Tyranid MCs back in 7th too. I had a Haruspex fail to kill any of a unit of 5 Sisters of Silence in combat. The Sisters hit back (maybe also doing nothing, maybe causing a wound, don't remember), and then the Haruspex was Swept off the table.

God, just thinking about Tyranids in 7th makes my blood boil. The Haruspex is almost as bad in 8th, but at least there was some miniscule improvement...
   
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 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Jumping back on Sweeping Advance -- it fried things like Tyranid MCs back in 7th too. I had a Haruspex fail to kill any of a unit of 5 Sisters of Silence in combat. The Sisters hit back (maybe also doing nothing, maybe causing a wound, don't remember), and then the Haruspex was Swept off the table.

God, just thinking about Tyranids in 7th makes my blood boil. The Haruspex is almost as bad in 8th, but at least there was some miniscule improvement...


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Another one was Cover. Can't remember the edition someone will state it.

When you assault a unit in cover you wouldn't get to fight first unless you had assault grenades I think.

Also might have had same time combat. Also Power fists always strike last.

Also the initiative stat.
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:


Piracy is to 95% a Service issue after all.

Sure? At least in this case?


I mean take a look at the Service gw provides.

Exemple havocs.
Come with two of each hw or 1 chaincannon.
The squad needs 4 heavy weapons.
They implement a new weapon that is a vast improvement for all csm units that can use it.
There is 1 in the box.

They dont sell additional weapons at a decent price ymmv and instead expect me to buy enough havoc kits to fully equip my squads.

It's artificial scarcity 101, however where scarcity is a market oppurtunity appears.

GW 's greed is not helping it in this case.
I mean, bluestuff and epoxy has existed for a long time to clone your bitz.

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ThatMG wrote:
Another one was Cover. Can't remember the edition someone will state it.

When you assault a unit in cover you wouldn't get to fight first unless you had assault grenades I think.

Also might have had same time combat. Also Power fists always strike last.

Also the initiative stat.


Playing Necrons, we've never had grenades if any kind, it made some of those editions pure hell.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:


Piracy is to 95% a Service issue after all.

Sure? At least in this case?


I mean take a look at the Service gw provides.

Exemple havocs.
Come with two of each hw or 1 chaincannon.
The squad needs 4 heavy weapons.
They implement a new weapon that is a vast improvement for all csm units that can use it.
There is 1 in the box.

They dont sell additional weapons at a decent price ymmv and instead expect me to buy enough havoc kits to fully equip my squads.

It's artificial scarcity 101, however where scarcity is a market oppurtunity appears.

GW 's greed is not helping it in this case.



They did that pretty well with the Deathwatch kill team box as well. They put a pair of heavy weapons unique to the Deathwatch, the flamer/heavy bolter and the Frag cannon, then include but one of them in the box. However, you get enough shoulder pads you can easily out fit like 15 marines, though you only get 5 in the box. No storm bolters, yet storm bolters are an option. Lets see, storm shields are good, oops only two of those as well. They want you to just buy say, 4 boxes of havocs, or 4 boxes of Deathwatch as opposed to put in say, 2 chain cannons in the box so you'd need to buy 2, which is reasonable.

I don't mind them making me buy a couple boxes, if its good enough I may already do that but when they cut back on the options or don't even include some just to make it so stretched thin you have to buy like 4 or more boxes that just feels bad.

I didn't even comment on if you wanted to make stalker bolters, or take any deathwatch shotguns, how there are like 1 of those in the kit, might be two shotguns I don't recall but pretty sure there is only one stalker bolt gun. I look at the kit and have to think they did it on purpose with a clear milking of your money goal in mind. Is there really any mystery third parties see the drives and motivations and fill the need ? Like a hydra yeah they cut off one head but two more take their place because of their designs. It's sad, when they had good ideas, like the bit services they once had up and those days felt great, at least to me.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I wanna say there are two Shotguns in the Deathwatch kit, which is fething stupidity because the Shotgun is terrible for the price and, if you DID want to do just a full squad like I did, you can't because. Seriously, nobody is going to just add one or two Shotguns to a squad. That's just bad.

I just bought the Shotguns from FW. I recommend looking at FW for their Rotor Cannon if you need more of the CSM Chaincannon to be honest.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Yeah, my point with the whole tirade is that it just sucks they do that. Even with options that are more fluff feel than on the board potent. Would it kill them to maybe put two of unique weapon systems in a box ?

If i wanted to run some of the chain cannons yeah I'd look at FW but probably will still end up costing a mint with their new costs for it in the US. It's just such a shame they didn't cut back on some other weapon options in the havoc kit to at least include two of the new gun for players that want it. As I don't know anybody would bought 4 boxes or more of them around here. Even with that incentive.
   
Made in nz
Dakka Veteran




Auckland, NZ

 Blndmage wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
Another one was Cover. Can't remember the edition someone will state it.

When you assault a unit in cover you wouldn't get to fight first unless you had assault grenades I think.

Also might have had same time combat. Also Power fists always strike last.

Also the initiative stat.


Playing Necrons, we've never had grenades if any kind, it made some of those editions pure hell.

Absolutely. The initiative stat was pretty much meaningless without grenades. Genestealers had I6, Hormagaunts I5, etc. But it didn't do a thing for them.
   
 
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