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Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Infact the whole ca move and pledges to improve balance is basically just there to maintain the knight Primarch arms race.

Could you explain in more detail? I'd think the intention was to allow more army diversity to stop discouraging people from getting vast collections and just limiting themselves to a nasty 1750 list and maybe a few softer units for casual play and instead open up options for people to get 3 of everything. You don't really need CA to create an arms race, that's exactly what's happening in the absence of CA isn't it? It's also what's been happening since 5th edition because of the absence of CA pts balancing.


No the CA is there to state that "they do something about balance". Which when you put it into context with 7th that broke many a camels back is basically a PR trick.
IT's the same company, just now with an somewhat competetn PR team.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in dk
Deranged Necron Destroyer






Karol wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Spoiler:
 jeff white wrote:
Laser pointers plus common sense civility and "My deamon prince is moving up to and crouching behind this 2 story wall, so his wingtips (though on the model pointing out) should be drawn in and not visible - OK?" ... "OK."

Nope, not okay. If I can see any part of him with any part of my model I can see him. When you start doing things according to roleplaying rules instead of wargaming rules you introduce uncertainty where none is needed. Get a DP on foot if you want him to hide, those wings are too cheap, being harder to hide is a small additional price. If you think your model should be able to physically hide but you don't want to drag the game out you can play by intention by asking your opponent if they can see it. Either your opponent will say he can't see it or he can help direct you as to put it in a position where it can't be seen.


okey but this favours people who resculpt their models. GW loves to put stuff on stupid scenic bases. The new raven guard claw character for example, is 1/3 taller then a normal space marine, because GW planted a litteral wall on his base. As with birds, a demon with wing would have his folded when it lands, else there would be a big risk of them being damaged. People should really not be punished for GW deciding that their infantry should have a gigantic horn or a bell on top of their head making them twice as high.

So because people can cheat we shouldn't have rules? Should I re-roll my 1s when BCB uses D8s against me? Modelling for advantage is the same as using cooked dice. If a model has an inconvenient model then that's just how it is. If you want to use a proxy or if you want to convert your model I expect the model to have roughly the same proportions. 40k is not a roleplaying game when you try to make it one it becomes much more complicated. How do you determine how tightly someone's wings can be folded? Maybe they are monomolecular wings and they can retract fully into your model's backpack so the wings should be ignored fully. How about that outstretched arm? Can it stretch and unstretch at will? Using the old LOS rules is perfectly fine as a house rule, but I think the current rules are crystal clear and make arguments almost impossible.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The CA is there to state that "they do something about balance". Which when you put it into context with 7th that broke many a camels back is basically a PR trick.
It's the same company, just now with an somewhat competent PR team.

So making Necrons into more than the Tesseract Vault faction was a PR trick? How about lowering the cost of Land Raiders or Terminators, but only enough that they are less bad rather than super OP. You aren't making anyone go out and buy Land Raiders, you are just allowing people to have more fun with the models they probably already own for the most part. All this time spent balancing units and you think it's PR rather than a business investment in a higher quality game? It's the game designers not the PR team doing this because GW management is no longer insane enough to think the quality of the game will ever get high without patches. A company is just the sum of its work and old management actively prevented balance to a high degree, it's not the same company. Like making Wraithknights 100 pts cheap, sure you sell a relatively large amount of those kits, but you also force people out of the game and prevent people getting invested in many factions when they find out they lost when they picked their faction, even in casual games. Maybe you are right, the "PR campaign" is certainly working on me. I'd considered recasters prior to GW's new direction and now I don't really. How about fixing the autokill GSC spell ASAP? Old GW let summoning and invisibility remain OP for years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/14 13:05:26


 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Infinity and Warmachine both define a model's physical footprint on the table as a cylinder of defined height above the base, ignoring any protruding bits. I know that isn't how GW has chosen to write their game (mostly because of the "what do you do with models without a base?" question) but it'd make LOS determination way easier and "modeling for advantage" a non-issue if they did do it that way.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






A rule from 2nd, practically nobody knew existed.

When it came to rolling to penetrate enemy tanks, you had to knock one off the score for every full 24” of distance twixt shooter and target.

Seriously. That was a rule.

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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A rule from 2nd, practically nobody knew existed.

When it came to rolling to penetrate enemy tanks, you had to knock one off the score for every full 24” of distance twixt shooter and target.

Seriously. That was a rule.


Sounds like a rule based off historical tank combat where armor penetration diminished with distance and a tank cannons / AT guns couldn't penetrate reliably against certain tanks unless within a certain range.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Vankraken wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A rule from 2nd, practically nobody knew existed.

When it came to rolling to penetrate enemy tanks, you had to knock one off the score for every full 24” of distance twixt shooter and target.

Seriously. That was a rule.


Sounds like a rule based off historical tank combat where armor penetration diminished with distance and a tank cannons / AT guns couldn't penetrate reliably against certain tanks unless within a certain range.


That's how Bolt Action works (though it's only -1 when outside half, not 'for every full 24"').

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in gb
Freaky Flayed One





All of the "Almost Pointless" mechanics - Overwatch, Morale, those stupid 2+ bodyguard rolls, etc. You can't ignore them because there's at 0.0X% chance they might decide the game, so their main function is to bloat the game with false complexity. Additionally when they DO matter, they only really ever function as an anticlimactic "Gotcha!". The kicker is that instead of reworking (or removing) these mechanics to make them less obnoxious and/or pointless, GW keep piling garbage modifiers onto them that act as noob traps (-LD armies like Night Lords) or buffing them into fun-killers (Shield Drones).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/14 15:24:30


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Virginia

When Fearless models took additional wounds at the end of close combat.
   
Made in fi
Focused Fire Warrior




Helsinki

Stomp was a pretty bad rule, oh you rolled a six, I guess I'll just remove all these models. And also the grav rules from 7th ed, 6s will always cause an immobilized result on a tank and any further 6s take two hull points of it. So annoying.

My armies:
vior'la sept 12k
Erik Morkai's great company 6k
dark mechanicus, the dearth of hope, 8k
rothwyr morwan's company 1,5k
Adeptus custodes 2k
AoS, The forgotten order, SE, 3k 
   
Made in gb
Pile of Necron Spare Parts




Crownworld Qarnac

Surprised no one's mentioned the special rule for Toholk the Blinded's melee weapon.

Aeonstave: S User(4) AP -1 D 2. Seems Ok? here's the kicker..."A unit that suffers an unsaved wound from this weapon may not Advance until the end of its next turn."

A true masterpiece of Necron technology.

Whew maybe I have gone off the rails.....


AngryAngel80 wrote:
So this poll reminds me of GW rule design, makes little sense, obviously was placed without any meaningful play testing and we're left waiting for a FAQ because right now the RAW crowd is using the open ended meaning to ruin everyones fun because we know how they intended W but we can't prove it with how it's written.
 
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Sorry, who?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Forgeworld character, I believe.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




For those of us (guilty as charged) who are beating up on 8th edition's basic rules, let's not forget how truly awful a lot of the basic rules in prior editions were:

- Tank shock with nonsensical rules
- Grenades having their rules changed every edition and never making sense in any one of them
- Initiative (I charge you and you go first and wipe me out, WTF)
- Fixed per movement values per unit class which spawned a huge assortment of overcomplicated movement-altering special rules (some of which are still with us today, such as Advance, the modern version of Fleet)
- All models in a squad must fire at the same target ("Everyone provide covering fire with their Lasguns while harry shoots the missile launcher at that the Land Raider!")
- "Guess range" weapons (I got good enough to be a sniper with those)
- No pre-measuring; shots could just go poof and be totally wasted
- AP3 weapons having no effect whatsoever against 2+ saves
- Endless arguments over blast template scattering and who was fully or partially under the marker
- Pinning (100% un-fun)
- The entire set of vehicle rules, which made them fiddly to use and super vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry unless they had special durability rules (in particular they were made of tissue paper against high-strength melee troops in 5th edition IIRC and beyond. Nobs with powerklaws could immediately shred any tank without AV14 on rear armor)
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries





Canberra, Australia

Perhaps my personal bugbear was the 3rd edition Dark Angel special rule "Intractable".

Once you got within 24", and within range of at least 1 gun, you had to roll a D6 before activating the unit. If you rolled a 1, they refused to move or charge, and could only shoot.

They did get Stubborn, but it was fething bs that your assault marines might just decide to hang out and fire their bolt pistols for a turn.

Only Ravenwing were immune to the rule.

“If you can't do something smart, do something brave.” 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Ezaviel wrote:
Perhaps my personal bugbear was the 3rd edition Dark Angel special rule "Intractable".

Once you got within 24", and within range of at least 1 gun, you had to roll a D6 before activating the unit. If you rolled a 1, they refused to move or charge, and could only shoot.

They did get Stubborn, but it was fething bs that your assault marines might just decide to hang out and fire their bolt pistols for a turn.

Only Ravenwing were immune to the rule.


Ugh. At least when they forced World Eaters to move forward and charge they also told you "You're not allowed to put the Mark of Khorne on Havocs, it'd be a trap and they wouldn't work."

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune




Another good one is.
Instant Death!
   
Made in gb
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot




Scotland

Overwatch for me is the worst. It breaks up the flow of the game for very little most of the time and makes the game too shooting focused.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





kryczek wrote:
Overwatch for me is the worst. It breaks up the flow of the game for very little most of the time and makes the game too shooting focused.


Overwatch isn't really the issue for the shootyness of the game though.
That blame squarely rests on cheaper infantry, aswell as the focus on superheavies.

Also there's the fact that transports massively suck for most melee armies and on top of that firepower significantly increased.
A csm once was 15 pts for 1 shot from 13-24 " now he is 13 for 2.
Auras increased that aswell and then there is the fact that melee always got the disadvantage of getting fought back.
Whilest shooting generally has no direct reprecussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/15 10:40:31


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




ThatMG wrote:
Another good one is.
Instant Death!


I actually liked this rule. I feel like it did a better job of representing how easy it should be to kill infantry with anti-tank weapons than we have today. Space Marine Librarian hit with a lascannon? He's toast. Today he's got a pretty good chance of being just fine thanks to the random damage characteristic.

Come to think of it, maybe random damage characteristics are what's annoying.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Pointed Stick wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
Another good one is.
Instant Death!


I actually liked this rule. I feel like it did a better job of representing how easy it should be to kill infantry with anti-tank weapons than we have today. Space Marine Librarian hit with a lascannon? He's toast. Today he's got a pretty good chance of being just fine thanks to the random damage characteristic.

Come to think of it, maybe random damage characteristics are what's annoying.

The issue was though it scaled badly.The strength required being 2x the targets toughness made it almost impossible to reach for the characters you'd actually want (or need) to pull it off against.
Not to mention Eternal warrior, (the rule that negated it) and toughness increasing wargear was handed out to high T characters far more readily than those with low T (and thereby were more likely to need it)

I can count on one hand the amount of times I didn't lose a T3 character to the first hit they took (because of instant death) It was immensely frustrating.
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






How Monstrous Creatures compared to Dreadnoughts.

Quite broadly speaking, they were equivalent role type units.

Except, one could pod shot a Dread and kill it. Or at least remove its CCW or legs, rendering it largely neutered.

Monstrous Creatures? Downside was vulnerability to most small arms fire (barring the Wraithlord). Upside? I had to kill it kill it to stop it. Add in their saving throw, and weapons like Autocannon (which could mess up Dreads) were outright laughed at.

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Made in nz
Dakka Veteran




Auckland, NZ

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How Monstrous Creatures compared to Dreadnoughts.

Quite broadly speaking, they were equivalent role type units.

Except, one could pod shot a Dread and kill it. Or at least remove its CCW or legs, rendering it largely neutered.

Monstrous Creatures? Downside was vulnerability to most small arms fire (barring the Wraithlord). Upside? I had to kill it kill it to stop it. Add in their saving throw, and weapons like Autocannon (which could mess up Dreads) were outright laughed at.

Broadly true for all those shooty 'monsters' that kept coming out, like riptides and such. Those were broken.

However as a tyranid player, many of the arguments calling for broad nerfs to all monsters always rang a bit hollow to me. Nids had approximately half the monstrous creature in the game, but only a couple of them ever saw use. Pretty much just the ones that could exploit 7th editions broken flyer rules.
The downsides as I saw it, is that all the monsters I had access to cost many more points than most vehicles, and were generally equipped with about half as much effective weaponry.

I admit to feeling a certain sense of schadenfreude when 8th edition rolled around and people started complaining that their vehicles cost twice as much. Just like I had been paying for my monsters previously. You got what you wished for
   
Made in cz
Mysterious Techpriest






Fortress world of Ostrakan

jaxor1983 wrote:
Amphibious.


Not the worst rule, but the most pointless rule.


Neutran Panzergrenadiers, Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, Order of the Silver Hand
My fan-lore: Europan Planetary federation. Hot topic: Help with Minotaurs chapter Killteam






 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Kildare, Ireland

 Jidmah wrote:

Why?

Charge a unit of trukkboyz into tactical marines.

I've identified your problem. You charged 10 boyz (basic troops from horde army) into 10 marines(basic generalists in an elite army).
 Jidmah wrote:
Tactical marines had higher initiative and kill 2 boyz.
Boyz kill one marine.

Boyz struck at double init on the charge if they passed a power of the waagh test (2d6, if equal or lower than strength of unit- in this case fail on a 11/12). You were attacking with 40 attacks (2+ccw+charge) hitting with 20 and wounding with say, 6- of which half would be casualties due to the choppa rule. Marines struck simultaneously with 10 attacks, maybe an extra for the sarge, 50% hit rate, 50% wound rate, 2 casualties is about right.
 Jidmah wrote:
Boyz lose combat, 4+d6 will usually beat 2+d6, trukkboyz get wiped out.

"Crippled units" my green twerking ork but.


Unless I'm mathhammering wrong- your orks should have won 1st combat vs the marines more often than not- but that's hardly the problem. The problem was you charged a solid unit of marines with an equal number of boyz- you should have charged with 20 (2 trukk mobs). You were never going to be able to sweeping advance them, so assuming you killed 3 and they killed 2, now you've lost your charge bonuses and you are stuck in combat to get whittled down or counter charged.
Charge with 2 trukk mobs and the story changes- now you've caused about 6-7 casualties, enough to severely effect the marines ability to fight back in their combat phase. In the turn you charged you were initiative 4, so they are less likely to escape than you are to catch them. And if you hold them there, you have about 18 boyz safe from in the enemy shooting phase, who should finish off the rest of the marines in the enemy assault phase, freeing them up in your turn.

Marine invulnerability to sweeping advance was a rope to hang them with if you did it right- but slapping a solid wall of ceramite with 10 boyz and wondering why you lost is not an argument against sweeping advance.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





Yeah, it didn't work that way in any of the editions I played in, which would be 5th, 6th and 7th. Marines hit first in all of those editions, period.

Averages don't happen as often as you like, and combat was won or lost by how good your PK rolls were. If the PK rolled badly, a fully intact unit got run down because the marines killed one more 6 point boy than you killed 18 point marines. If they stayed alive, the PK would eventually wipe out the marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/16 11:00:55


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





ThatMG wrote:
Another good one is.
Instant Death!


Wasn't the most imbalanced thing in the world but GOD was it a feelsbad moment when someone lobbed a random krak missile at your super pumped up space marine chapter master and he just went "Kersplat."
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison




Bristol

the_scotsman wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
Another good one is.
Instant Death!


Wasn't the most imbalanced thing in the world but GOD was it a feelsbad moment when someone lobbed a random krak missile at your super pumped up space marine chapter master and he just went "Kersplat."


Nah, I loved that. Space marine standing heroically on a rock with no helmet on on their own?

XV88: "Target acquired"

Also, didn't space marines often have access to eternal warrior relics? I can remember a storm shield which granted it. Which was a kick in the teeth because I think it was either the same cost or only slightly more expensive than a Tau shield generator at the time whilst offering a better save and protection from instant death.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/16 12:36:27


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





the_scotsman wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
Another good one is.
Instant Death!


Wasn't the most imbalanced thing in the world but GOD was it a feelsbad moment when someone lobbed a random krak missile at your super pumped up space marine chapter master and he just went "Kersplat."


There was also the issue of Eternal Warrior being handed out in a rather haphazard way, so some factions would have many characters who were all immune to ID, whilst others had none at all.
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







ID also led to kludgy stuff like bikers with T4(5), and caused huge problems to units with many wounds but low toughness, like Tyranid Warriors and Ogryns, who tended to pay dearly for their multiple wounds, yet lost them all on 2+ to tank ordnance (which also often took out entire squads with one blast marker.

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
Wasn't the most imbalanced thing in the world but GOD was it a feelsbad moment when someone lobbed a random krak missile at your super pumped up space marine chapter master and he just went "Kersplat."
Certainly helped cut down on the herohammer though.
   
 
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