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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 harlokin wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
My favorite Kirby move in 7th was selling a model which required you to pay another $10 for a single-page epub to get its rules.


That's still arguably not as bad as Forgeworld, where if I buy a Drukhari Reaper from them, I have to buy a book (99% of the datasheets of which are useless to me) to get it's rules.

Irony being FW do give away free downloads when they can get away with it, it's GW managment who told them to stop doing that.

Some of the internal politicing roumers I have heard about the devissions in GW make it sound more like kinder garden and less like a business.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Tycho wrote:
Marine players aren't the ones calling everyone else NPC factions. it's mostly the people who like those factions using that term. If you think that Marine players are dismissive of other factions and want them squatted you're clueless.
Now Marine players have noted the economics of why Marine releases happen so often, but they're not being dismissive they're just pointing out the realistic facts


I haven't seen a marine player say that either, but have seen MANY behave in a remarkably dismissive manner here. You yourself are fairly quick to dismiss/deny/deflect any criticism at all in fact.

Could be, but from what I have been told GW best seller has always been marines.




Marine players may not be calling other factions "NPC factions" but the reason that term gets thrown around is because of the consistently obnoxious and predictable reaction to anybody getting anything that has any kind of advantage over the marine equivalent.

marine players love to pour out of the woodwork and moan about any faction getting anything good. Take the Kelermorph for example:

This is a game piece that is going to be a suicide assassin, designed to take out enemy character models. For a suicide assassin to be anything but a complete waste of points, it needs to have a fairly reasonable chance to remove its target from the board in a single round of shooting, and usually, a functional suicide unit returns about 40-50% of its points value in a bad situation, and 100-110% of its points in a good situation, because it's taken as a given that it can be removed fairly points-efficiently by an opponent the following turn.

OK, so what's the average, basic HQ character in 40k look like? I'd say it's got either a 5++ or a 4++, around W5, T3-T4, and it's about 90-100pts. So a good suicide assassin is able to deal about that much damage with average to decent rolling, and has a price point of 75-90pts.

This is why the Callidus assassin with A5 S4 Ap-3 D2+~1 mortal wound is generally considered a not super useful suicide assassin, while the eversor with A8 S5 reroll wounds AP-1 D1+4 S4 reroll wounds AP-1 D1 is considered pretty good. On average rolls he deals about 4.5 damage to a target with a 4++, while she deals only about 4. Exactly the same as the Kelermorph. The extra defenses and the explosion special rule and the alternate ability to rip up a unit of light infantry instead are what accounts for the slight points increase on the Eversor.

But nobody begrudges the Eversor being able to do what he does, even though he's not a space marine. But suddenly it's an affront to all the universe if the Kelermorph can pop in and merk a basic marine captain with no additional defenses with very slightly above-average rolling on the drop. He's soooooo suspension of disbelief shattering, it's soooo stupid that this dumb hobo with a pistol can take down space marines so easily, he has to be hotfix nerfed to the level of completely nonfunctional non-marine assassins like lictors who stand absolutely no chance of accomplishing the goal of taking something down the turn it arrives.

part of the reasoning given why marines always need to be better than everyone else is, at least implied to be, that pretty much all factions should be worse than marines. That's why it's A-OK that necron immortals can be W1 and marines can be W2 universally despite "unstoppable durability" being the necrons' shtick. *shrug* well they're not a marine, sooo.....

nearly every faction has some form of ~100-110pt walker/monster with vehicle toughness+save, low movement, no degradation profile and a mix of shooting and melee weaponry. Carnifexes, Deff Dreads, Wraithlords, Talos Pain Engines, Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes.

So, how are they differentiated? Is the Wraithlord the fastest, the Carnifex and the Talos the toughest, the Helbrute and Deff Dread like a bezerk one, and the Dreadnought the shootiest?

Nope, Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes have the best shooting weapons, the best damage in melee, equivalent durability, and are tied for the fastest.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Ice_can wrote:
Some of the internal politicing roumers I have heard about the devissions in GW make it sound more like kinder garden and less like a business.


I think that's how all large companies operate

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Jidmah wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Some of the internal politicing roumers I have heard about the devissions in GW make it sound more like kinder garden and less like a business.


I think that's how all large companies operate


I think the successfully ones are just well less kindergarten and more 3rd Grade and everything in between

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Jidmah wrote:
My favorite Kirby move in 7th was selling a model which required you to pay another $10 for a single-page epub to get its rules.


OMG why did you remind me of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:


nearly every faction has some form of ~100-110pt walker/monster with vehicle toughness+save, low movement, no degradation profile and a mix of shooting and melee weaponry. Carnifexes, Deff Dreads, Wraithlords, Talos Pain Engines, Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes.

So, how are they differentiated? Is the Wraithlord the fastest, the Carnifex and the Talos the toughest, the Helbrute and Deff Dread like a bezerk one, and the Dreadnought the shootiest?

Nope, Dreadnoughts/Helbrutes have the best shooting weapons, the best damage in melee, equivalent durability, and are tied for the fastest.


???

Wraithlords are T8 though? And they don't sacrifice punching with more weapons. They do degrade though, because W10 instead of W8.

Helbrutes at least have the go crazy option.
Fexes have battering ram, can come in 3s, and a number of upgrades available.
Deff Dreads have a good bit of flex in quantity of attacks/weapons (yes, I now Ork BS) along with reroll charges.
Talos have a 5++ (Orks can easily, too) plus the other DE stacking.

Of all the dreadnought class models Space Marines are the most bland and are limited in their off hand to the ML. The Ironclad is slightly more interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 15:50:35


   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 Jidmah wrote:
My favorite Kirby move in 7th was selling a model which required you to pay another $10 for a single-page epub to get its rules.


Which model was that? That would have been from a period when I was only paying rudimentary attention to GWs releases.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I wanna guess Marbo, but I'm not sure.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Grimtuff wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
My favorite Kirby move in 7th was selling a model which required you to pay another $10 for a single-page epub to get its rules.


Which model was that? That would have been from a period when I was only paying rudimentary attention to GWs releases.


There were a bunch. There was a "helbrute formation" where you took 3 of them or w/e and they gained some special rules. It was GW trying to give other armies similar benefits, but through a very ridiculous avenue.

   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 Grimtuff wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
My favorite Kirby move in 7th was selling a model which required you to pay another $10 for a single-page epub to get its rules.


Which model was that? That would have been from a period when I was only paying rudimentary attention to GWs releases.


I know there were multiple, but I'm very sure that Be'lakor was one of them. You were unable to play the model unless you bought his dataslate from Black Library.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 17:18:11


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in es
Masculine Male Wych





I, for one, am really excited for the wait. I'm buying less (models with not many weaponry possibilities to not mess up) and thinking that the next Codex will improve us, for sure.

The Bloody Sails
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Wayniac wrote:
Yes but as long as people keep shoveling money to GW and giving them record profits they have no reason to change since it shows people are okay with it. We had our chance to really change how they operate and people fell for their smoke and mirrors bullgak hook, line, and sinker with 8th edition. So what did we get? More of the same but they are slightly more transparent and more open so everyone forgave them.


{shrugs indifferently} Nearly every dime they receive from me is for models. As long as they keep making models I like they'll keep getting $ from me....





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayniac wrote:
Yes but as long as people keep shoveling money to GW and giving them record profits they have no reason to change since it shows people are okay with it. We had our chance to really change how they operate and people fell for their smoke and mirrors bullgak hook, line, and sinker with 8th edition. So what did we get? More of the same but they are slightly more transparent and more open so everyone forgave them.


{shrugs indifferently} Nearly every dime they receive from me is for models. As long as they keep making models I like they'll keep getting $ from me....


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 20:31:19


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


What's your issue?!
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 00:07:01


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.



I mean GW could have also done it because their lizard overlords told them too based off a protagnastion gained from reading bubbles in a glass of beer. thats just as valid.

Slayer-fans point is that unit was a serious problem for more then just marines so dismissing it's nerf as "ohh GW just wanted to address marine whining that they aren't OP" isn't exactly valid.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch




Noctis Labyrinthus

Not Online!!! wrote:

i like how you completely disregard the bigger conclusion of the argument and like others only partially quote what was stated, well done. How about you come back when your reading comprehension has improved to an adequate level, but here is one exemple of the effect i am attempting to describe:


Don't need to my friend, if you had progressed beyond your community college's intro to logic course you might have realized that I only responded to your whining about R and H because it's the only part that warranted addressing. Because I agree that near-exclusively focusing on Marines is bad for the game as a whole. I really wish that GW gave enough of a gak about the Eldar to give the Avatar decent rules rather than make him this laughably overpriced loser who runs as fast as a fething Great Unclean One. But to bring up some bs about RnH and equating them to the various flavors of Eldar (which you did do, don't lie to save face now my son) and pretend that them squatting RnH will hurt the game is laughable. It's a ridiculously silly notion and your sticking by it makes your argument overall weaker.

But by all means stay mad my friend.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Void__Dragon wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

i like how you completely disregard the bigger conclusion of the argument and like others only partially quote what was stated, well done. How about you come back when your reading comprehension has improved to an adequate level, but here is one exemple of the effect i am attempting to describe:


Don't need to my friend, if you had progressed beyond your community college's intro to logic course you might have realized that I only responded to your whining about R and H because it's the only part that warranted addressing. Because I agree that near-exclusively focusing on Marines is bad for the game as a whole. I really wish that GW gave enough of a gak about the Eldar to give the Avatar decent rules rather than make him this laughably overpriced loser who runs as fast as a fething Great Unclean One. But to bring up some bs about RnH and equating them to the various flavors of Eldar (which you did do, don't lie to save face now my son) and pretend that them squatting RnH will hurt the game is laughable. It's a ridiculously silly notion and your sticking by it makes your argument overall weaker.

But by all means stay mad my friend.


O noes, whatever will i do with this Ad hominem,

The equation to eldar is to preciscly show gw's General disregard for faction health, it's the Same that did happen to fw factions, lacking the capability to realise that the only difference was internal politiking(as remarked) that Lead to one side beeing squatted for the near future whilest the others, eldar in this case , stagnate happily onwards is dishonest and shortsighted.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Nope, I heard the pitch, saw it was the usual jumble of GW half baked push and patch

I'll hear them out again come 10th, till then other games will occupy my hobbytime

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Lol the rage over the Kellermorph was phenomenal. Good times!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.


Except that that's the straw version of my point. I contrasted the damage that the kelermorph on the drop with the damage that pretty much any reliable, decent assassin model does on the charge vs typical T4 4++ characters. Spoiler alert, it's not that different, and the kelermorph is easier to take off the table than almost any of the competition since he's only got T3 and 5++ vs T4 4++ for imperial assassins, T3 3++ for Solitaires, etc. All the complaints made about the kelermorph, could be made about the eversor assassin, or the solitaire, who are both perfectly happy to make his points back by smacking an infantry unit or two around instead of assassinating a character.

And of course, everyone will scream and cry about that average unsaved 4.52 wounds from the kelermorph but a blood angels smash captain can deal 6.25 unsaved wounds to something with a 4++, before you bother with any relics, warlord traits, extra damage stratagems, whatever.

People made hay about the fact that the kelermorph could, if he spent 3CP, choose to attack twice, dealing craAaAaAaAzy damage, a thing that every single marine and pretty much every chaos marine unit can do on demand. An ability that's been in the game since the very first codex in 8th.

But it's OK if blood angel hammer man can cost 108 points and can charge in suicidally and spend 5Cp to fight 3 times, that's perfectly acceptable because he is a space man. The boundary for where people will start to cry "immersion breaking!" is 6" off the dirt for anything that's not a marine, and up in the stratosphere for anything that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.



Yep, agreed.

Say, why do you figure it took GW 2-3 years to fix what was clearly busted ass broken immediately at the time of release when it came to GK.

it couldnt possibly be...that GW routinely doesn't give a gak about its less popular factions and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of those factions remaining unpopular by neglecting them for long periods of time.

Hmmm its weird in 5th it felt like GK were this hugely popular faction that everyone played, and then GW gave them gak rules and 0 model support for 3 editions in a row, now theyre scraping the bottom of the barrel.

it's almost like the inherent appeal of marines ISNT enough to make a faction more popular.

its almost like if GW didnt put out a single model for marines 2 editions in a row and kept them bottom tier in competitive play, next to nobody would be playing them come 11th ed.

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 12:08:54


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos






it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.


This is the crux isn't it.
This is what i meant with faction health, allbeit i disagree with the models beeing the reason for bad faction health for Tyranids.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Not Online!!! wrote:

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.


This is the crux isn't it.
This is what i meant with faction health, allbeit i disagree with the models beeing the reason for bad faction health for Tyranids.



Agreed, the nids range isn't bad and between 4th - 6th they were spoiled for nice new models really.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.


Except that that's the straw version of my point. I contrasted the damage that the kelermorph on the drop with the damage that pretty much any reliable, decent assassin model does on the charge vs typical T4 4++ characters. Spoiler alert, it's not that different, and the kelermorph is easier to take off the table than almost any of the competition since he's only got T3 and 5++ vs T4 4++ for imperial assassins, T3 3++ for Solitaires, etc. All the complaints made about the kelermorph, could be made about the eversor assassin, or the solitaire, who are both perfectly happy to make his points back by smacking an infantry unit or two around instead of assassinating a character.

And of course, everyone will scream and cry about that average unsaved 4.52 wounds from the kelermorph but a blood angels smash captain can deal 6.25 unsaved wounds to something with a 4++, before you bother with any relics, warlord traits, extra damage stratagems, whatever.

People made hay about the fact that the kelermorph could, if he spent 3CP, choose to attack twice, dealing craAaAaAaAzy damage, a thing that every single marine and pretty much every chaos marine unit can do on demand. An ability that's been in the game since the very first codex in 8th.

But it's OK if blood angel hammer man can cost 108 points and can charge in suicidally and spend 5Cp to fight 3 times, that's perfectly acceptable because he is a space man. The boundary for where people will start to cry "immersion breaking!" is 6" off the dirt for anything that's not a marine, and up in the stratosphere for anything that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.



Yep, agreed.

Say, why do you figure it took GW 2-3 years to fix what was clearly busted ass broken immediately at the time of release when it came to GK.

it couldnt possibly be...that GW routinely doesn't give a gak about its less popular factions and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of those factions remaining unpopular by neglecting them for long periods of time.

Hmmm its weird in 5th it felt like GK were this hugely popular faction that everyone played, and then GW gave them gak rules and 0 model support for 3 editions in a row, now theyre scraping the bottom of the barrel.

it's almost like the inherent appeal of marines ISNT enough to make a faction more popular.

its almost like if GW didnt put out a single model for marines 2 editions in a row and kept them bottom tier in competitive play, next to nobody would be playing them come 11th ed.

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.


Literallg nobody defended Slamguinus, so basically you're just looking to be a victim.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Dudeface wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.


This is the crux isn't it.
This is what i meant with faction health, allbeit i disagree with the models beeing the reason for bad faction health for Tyranids.



Agreed, the nids range isn't bad and between 4th - 6th they were spoiled for nice new models really.


Well beyond the phallic arty piece...
And finecrap...

which should've been replaced LONG ago.

Reminds me i still have the old nid dex when they had their modify biomorph shenanigans ,where one could build immensly cutomised armies...
Something like that needs to come back, but alas, such dexes would require more playtesting and therefore more time and therefore cost more in development prices.
...
So gw wouldn't make it happen again..

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/24 12:44:53


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.


Except that that's the straw version of my point. I contrasted the damage that the kelermorph on the drop with the damage that pretty much any reliable, decent assassin model does on the charge vs typical T4 4++ characters. Spoiler alert, it's not that different, and the kelermorph is easier to take off the table than almost any of the competition since he's only got T3 and 5++ vs T4 4++ for imperial assassins, T3 3++ for Solitaires, etc. All the complaints made about the kelermorph, could be made about the eversor assassin, or the solitaire, who are both perfectly happy to make his points back by smacking an infantry unit or two around instead of assassinating a character.

And of course, everyone will scream and cry about that average unsaved 4.52 wounds from the kelermorph but a blood angels smash captain can deal 6.25 unsaved wounds to something with a 4++, before you bother with any relics, warlord traits, extra damage stratagems, whatever.

People made hay about the fact that the kelermorph could, if he spent 3CP, choose to attack twice, dealing craAaAaAaAzy damage, a thing that every single marine and pretty much every chaos marine unit can do on demand. An ability that's been in the game since the very first codex in 8th.

But it's OK if blood angel hammer man can cost 108 points and can charge in suicidally and spend 5Cp to fight 3 times, that's perfectly acceptable because he is a space man. The boundary for where people will start to cry "immersion breaking!" is 6" off the dirt for anything that's not a marine, and up in the stratosphere for anything that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.



Yep, agreed.

Say, why do you figure it took GW 2-3 years to fix what was clearly busted ass broken immediately at the time of release when it came to GK.

it couldnt possibly be...that GW routinely doesn't give a gak about its less popular factions and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of those factions remaining unpopular by neglecting them for long periods of time.

Hmmm its weird in 5th it felt like GK were this hugely popular faction that everyone played, and then GW gave them gak rules and 0 model support for 3 editions in a row, now theyre scraping the bottom of the barrel.

it's almost like the inherent appeal of marines ISNT enough to make a faction more popular.

its almost like if GW didnt put out a single model for marines 2 editions in a row and kept them bottom tier in competitive play, next to nobody would be playing them come 11th ed.

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.


Literallg nobody defended Slamguinus, so basically you're just looking to be a victim.


Actually people did defend Slamguinus, because atleast initially, the rest of the dex BA was marines 1.0 bad.

Granted, it's also the asumption that a faction with 1 good option for comp can be considered "healthy".

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




Actually people did defend Slamguinus, because atleast initially, the rest of the dex BA was marines 1.0 bad.

Granted, it's also the asumption that a faction with 1 good option for comp can be considered "healthy".


Yeah. It's a weird thing that's happened w/Marine books the last few editions where, often times, even if the codex as a whole is kind of weak (8th ed Marines 1.0 - the afore mentioned BA codex, etc), there's still at least one thing that's OP, or at least borderline OP. So at the time, Slammy got defended because it was the one play they had.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Tycho wrote:
Actually people did defend Slamguinus, because atleast initially, the rest of the dex BA was marines 1.0 bad.

Granted, it's also the asumption that a faction with 1 good option for comp can be considered "healthy".


Yeah. It's a weird thing that's happened w/Marine books the last few editions where, often times, even if the codex as a whole is kind of weak (8th ed Marines 1.0 - the afore mentioned BA codex, etc), there's still at least one thing that's OP, or at least borderline OP. So at the time, Slammy got defended because it was the one play they had.


It's not just marines, consider how well CSM were regarded from the comp standpoint, especially from the outside, because you had lashprinces and obliterators, or the hellturkey.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
 
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