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How much will boyz cost with T5 and AP-1 Choppas?
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Made in us
Been Around the Block





epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.

You think +1 T and -1 AP on your weapon is worth 1 point?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Rocket launchers went to heavy while at the same time nerfing Tank Busta's ability to just negate the fact that they are heavy. This is just huge to me, Rocket Launchers are just garbage now. Moving makes you hit on a 6+, how on earth is this supposed to EVER be useful? Did they forget that Orks are BS 5+


If memory serves me right, rocket launchers went from assault to heavy put are heavy d3 instead of assault one. That means that on a one, you lose firepower. On a two you break even 2 chances to hit on a 6 vs 1 chance to hit on 5 or 6 is basically the same. On a three you gain firepower. That's if you needed to move. a well positioned Tank Busta squad might not need to move all the time to do its job and in that case you basically statistically doubled their firepower. I think a heavy d3 is a fairly interesting buff compared to a simple assault 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.


You think +1 T and -1 AP on your weapon is worth 1 point?


Well yes, I do think that 3+, 5+, 4, 5, 1, 2, 6, 6+ model with a pistol and a -1 ap close combat weapon is probably worth a 9 point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/19 20:25:10


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Err choppas are not AP1 as far as I can tell with the leaks. Did I miss something?

   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




My original post was a little confusing on what I was trying to say with rocket launchers, I kind of combined two different points.

I dislike that they made rockets heavy because you use to be able to stick a rocket on a shoota boyz mob to give you just a little extra firepower, but now that is a horrible idea. Maybe it was just me but I did have a lot of rockets attached where ever I could.

Tank Bustas I am annoyed with because I loved the swingy nature of Orks that seems to be disappearing. Rerolls with the old dakka dakka where pinnacle ork to me when it came to Tank Bustas. Overall I think that it is a positive net effect for Tank Bustas with the new rules but it is diminishing the thing I liked the most about orks.

As a Snakebite player I am super psyched that everything Squiggy is getting some love but there is so much under performing units that seem to have been copy pasted from the 8th codex.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Err choppas are not AP1 as far as I can tell with the leaks. Did I miss something?


https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/05/warhammer-40k-new-ork-rules-da-boyz-is-back-and-tougher-than-ever.html

Here you go. It's pretty much in the middle of the article.
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Yeah Warhammer Community gets things wrong from time to time (Lord of Virulence buffing deamon engines? HAHAHA) but you'd think copy and pasted profiles should be correct.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Ah, right. So given the reputation of the app being very off we're probably not looking at the best picture, because the leaks show choppas at AP0. We should refrain from too many judgements until we get the actual book.

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






epronovost wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Rocket launchers went to heavy while at the same time nerfing Tank Busta's ability to just negate the fact that they are heavy. This is just huge to me, Rocket Launchers are just garbage now. Moving makes you hit on a 6+, how on earth is this supposed to EVER be useful? Did they forget that Orks are BS 5+


If memory serves me right, rocket launchers went from assault to heavy put are heavy d3 instead of assault one. That means that on a one, you lose firepower. On a two you break even 2 chances to hit on a 6 vs 1 chance to hit on 5 or 6 is basically the same. On a three you gain firepower. That's if you needed to move. a well positioned Tank Busta squad might not need to move all the time to do its job and in that case you basically statistically doubled their firepower. I think a heavy d3 is a fairly interesting buff compared to a simple assault 1.

Technically, since they have also lost DDD, you don't break even on a 2. But yes, in general you are right, it's not as much as a nerf as it seems.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
My original post was a little confusing on what I was trying to say with rocket launchers, I kind of combined two different points.

I dislike that they made rockets heavy because you use to be able to stick a rocket on a shoota boyz mob to give you just a little extra firepower, but now that is a horrible idea. Maybe it was just me but I did have a lot of rockets attached where ever I could.

Tank Bustas I am annoyed with because I loved the swingy nature of Orks that seems to be disappearing. Rerolls with the old dakka dakka where pinnacle ork to me when it came to Tank Bustas. Overall I think that it is a positive net effect for Tank Bustas with the new rules but it is diminishing the thing I liked the most about orks.


Both things are still there though, since shootas moved to dakka weapons they can't advance and shoot anyways and the rokkit does roughly the same as before.

And for tank bustas, if anything they have gotten more swingy - they can now shoot 15-45 rokkits at their target.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 05:19:13


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




I wouldn't be surprised to see a strat that let's a unit use its dakka weapons as Assault weapons.
Or a strat to ignore the penalty to move with heavy weapons.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Eh, neither is worth wasting CP on.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.

You think +1 T and -1 AP on your weapon is worth 1 point?


honestly normal boyz were not worth the current price, +1t and ap-1 isn't really going to fix them since they lost several abilities. lost 1 attack at 20 or more models, lost mob rule so are now much more likely to have attrition losses. lost the unstoppable green tide ability, nerfs to da jump, nerfed clan cultured, and a nerfed kff so lackign protection for one max sized unit of boyz.

with all the above and if you took ghaz, a waggh banner nob, and made them skarboyz for str 5 one unit of boyz on the table was pretty good. mostly i see people takgin a few units of them as a troop tax since gretchin are worse . Even then normal boyz will only he there until you have enough beast snagga boyz at which point no point bringing the old ones (they seem to be worth the 11 points)

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.

   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


not the same as fearless. they still could run it just prevented some loss. its not as bad as 8th edition morale, but smart players will do just enough dmg to force a morale check to fail on anything but a 1 for max sized units/ kill 7 (pretty easy with a 6+ even with T5) then likely the ork fails morale, loses 1 more automatically and then rolls 22 more dice 3.5 more losses for morale so pretty good bang for the buck there. kill 7 and have 4-5 more run for morale fairly reliably.

as for waaagh its a 2 turn ability so nice but not game wide (to be fair neither was the size one but usually did come in handy for unstoppable green tide

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 13:17:05


10000 points 7000
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2000
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.

In the specific context I placed it in? yes. Going from all the time to one turn a game and partial of a 2nd is a nerf. Especially since the +1A just compensates for hte loss on big mobs of boyz. GW gave us a lot of "buffs" with one hand and in the other handed us a plethora of nerfs to make up for them. Burna's go to D6 shots YAY! Also, they lost their CC ability, its now a 2CP strat or whatever the hell it is Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


As mentioned above - it's table wide, which is pretty huge. The original was just advance and charge, which I am pretty sure is unnecessary after you get stuck in.

The morale abilities look to all be shifting to attrition, which are rarely used ( but should be ). Leadership reduction is pretty irrelevant to orks if they're taking losses anyway.

+1to hit is fantastic. Few people ever had the points to spare for a banner. Hitting on 2s with 120 attacks is no joke. That's literally all upside.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 14:33:02


   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

120 attacks?

Typically it's 40ish, as you won't have more than 10-12 boyz in combat anyway, especially now that +1A is only granted in one turn per game.

+1 to hit is fantastic for heavy hitters, except putting all eggs in one basket has never been rewarding, especially for fragile armies like orks.

Boyz don't really get much with a +1 to hit, meganobz will definitely do IF they manage to get that aura.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


As mentioned above - it's table wide, which is pretty huge. The original was just advance and charge, which I am pretty sure is unnecessary after you get stuck in.

The morale abilities look to all be shifting to attrition, which are rarely used ( but should be ). Leadership reduction is pretty irrelevant to orks if they're taking losses anyway.

+1to hit is fantastic. Few people ever had the points to spare for a banner. Hitting on 2s with 120 attacks is no joke. That's literally all upside.


120 attacks, assuming the WAAAAGH is going off that turn means you managed to get 30 boyz into CC. To put it bluntly, that will never happen for a few reasons. 1: its incredibly hard to get that many models into the shortened CC range, especially with the new LARGER base sizes. And 2: No ork player is going to run 30 blobs anymore since if you kill 6 boyz the unit than loses another 5 to Morale. GW screwed the pooch with the ork codex except for the Beast Snaggaz who are going to be likely the only competitive way to play orkz.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.

In the specific context I placed it in? yes. Going from all the time to one turn a game and partial of a 2nd is a nerf. Especially since the +1A just compensates for hte loss on big mobs of boyz. GW gave us a lot of "buffs" with one hand and in the other handed us a plethora of nerfs to make up for them. Burna's go to D6 shots YAY! Also, they lost their CC ability, its now a 2CP strat or whatever the hell it is Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


yeah its wild, it's almost like orks were fairly competitive before, with a good winrate that usually hung out slightly above 50%, and a codex with massive buffs and no corresponding nerfs would kind of be like the exact same mistake they just made with Admech and drukhari.

More Codex: Orks, Codex: Sisters, Codex: Marines 3.0 pls, less Codex: Drukhari/Codex: Admech.

Also, I just adore the dishonest framing of the turn 2 of army-wide waaagh being a "Partial" thing when its...literally 100% of what the old aura ability used to be on the 2nd turn, lol. And no, the +1A wasn't 'to make up' for taking away +1A at 20+ for boyz, that would be the fact that they gave boyz an offensive buff in the form of ap-1 choppas.

Remember complaining that boyz were worthless unless you bought 120$ of them and used it for a single troop slot? That they were basically pointless in 10-man squads and 20-man squads, the only way you could use them with transports, forcing ork players into a miserable green tide playstyle that not every ork player wanted to pursue? You know, two weeks ago?

The new codex is a side-grade that reduces special rules bloat, bonkers crutch strat combos like triple-fighting warbosses flyin' eadbutt and UGT in favor of base unit stats that are actually worth the points you pay for the dang unit. Buggies are good in general, any buggy you could care to name you can take it and it'll be worthwhile as a unit to field - not just a single unit of 3x skrapjets upgraded with the Corkskrew KJ to give them all double fight in melee for 1 single CP. Bikes, Koptas, stormboyz, Kommandos and our various mobile options are good in general - not just single model Koptas converted to KMBs and run in Deffskullz where they get re-roll everything and a 6++.

I do legitimately feel for people who like orks for the green tide. Even if you split your boyz into a billion 10-man squads and stick them in a Brigade with some efficient turn 1 pressure units like Stormboyz and Kommandos to fill your slots, I do not think that's a >50% WR build anymore in a tournament. I INCREDIBLY strongly disagree that that means the codex is in any way a bad codex - if anything, it's the ideal of what a 9th codex should be. Just the fact that I don't have to do vector calculus to figure out the 19 army-wide special rules I have to juggle on all my gak and roll and reroll every single throw and my gak can just be. good. and worth the points based on the datasheets is a massive relief. The new admech codex killed 100% of any motivation I will ever have to play that army. it sucks to play as, and it sucks even harder to play against. A codex where i have to deal with FEWER army-wide rules instead of MORE is a massive relief.

I love how much more comedic my signature becomes each and every day

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


It isn't beyond ridiculous. Grot Shield now makes it impossible to target Lootas who will likely be getting 3 shots. Showing Off is an extra hit.

12 * 3 * .167 * 2 =12
12 * 3 * .167 = 6

18 hits not considering big shootas. Previously they were 15 * 4 * .333 = 20

Yes, you could do More DDD and pump them up, but combo wombo is going away. Now you get move and shoot Lootas with way more reliable output and an extra 5 S5 hits

   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.

In the specific context I placed it in? yes. Going from all the time to one turn a game and partial of a 2nd is a nerf. Especially since the +1A just compensates for hte loss on big mobs of boyz. GW gave us a lot of "buffs" with one hand and in the other handed us a plethora of nerfs to make up for them. Burna's go to D6 shots YAY! Also, they lost their CC ability, its now a 2CP strat or whatever the hell it is Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


yeah its wild, it's almost like orks were fairly competitive before, with a good winrate that usually hung out slightly above 50%, and a codex with massive buffs and no corresponding nerfs would kind of be like the exact same mistake they just made with Admech and drukhari.

More Codex: Orks, Codex: Sisters, Codex: Marines 3.0 pls, less Codex: Drukhari/Codex: Admech.

Also, I just adore the dishonest framing of the turn 2 of army-wide waaagh being a "Partial" thing when its...literally 100% of what the old aura ability used to be on the 2nd turn, lol. And no, the +1A wasn't 'to make up' for taking away +1A at 20+ for boyz, that would be the fact that they gave boyz an offensive buff in the form of ap-1 choppas.

Remember complaining that boyz were worthless unless you bought 120$ of them and used it for a single troop slot? That they were basically pointless in 10-man squads and 20-man squads, the only way you could use them with transports, forcing ork players into a miserable green tide playstyle that not every ork player wanted to pursue? You know, two weeks ago?

The new codex is a side-grade that reduces special rules bloat, bonkers crutch strat combos like triple-fighting warbosses flyin' eadbutt and UGT in favor of base unit stats that are actually worth the points you pay for the dang unit. Buggies are good in general, any buggy you could care to name you can take it and it'll be worthwhile as a unit to field - not just a single unit of 3x skrapjets upgraded with the Corkskrew KJ to give them all double fight in melee for 1 single CP. Bikes, Koptas, stormboyz, Kommandos and our various mobile options are good in general - not just single model Koptas converted to KMBs and run in Deffskullz where they get re-roll everything and a 6++.

I do legitimately feel for people who like orks for the green tide. Even if you split your boyz into a billion 10-man squads and stick them in a Brigade with some efficient turn 1 pressure units like Stormboyz and Kommandos to fill your slots, I do not think that's a >50% WR build anymore in a tournament. I INCREDIBLY strongly disagree that that means the codex is in any way a bad codex - if anything, it's the ideal of what a 9th codex should be. Just the fact that I don't have to do vector calculus to figure out the 19 army-wide special rules I have to juggle on all my gak and roll and reroll every single throw and my gak can just be. good. and worth the points based on the datasheets is a massive relief. The new admech codex killed 100% of any motivation I will ever have to play that army. it sucks to play as, and it sucks even harder to play against. A codex where i have to deal with FEWER army-wide rules instead of MORE is a massive relief.

I love how much more comedic my signature becomes each and every day


I have to agree with this. Theres a ton of stuff I would have made differently with this codex and I cannot know his competitive power, probably some broken as feth list is hidden here. But outside of that I'm surprised by how many units have become much more playable.

Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.

And I 100% agree about this codex being "simple" in the surface. You have to call a Waaagh one turn. Thats it. The depth of the mental load this codex gives you with special rules. The rest is units and a couple stratagems.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/20 15:22:20


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 15:25:30


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


It isn't beyond ridiculous. Grot Shield now makes it impossible to target Lootas who will likely be getting 3 shots. Showing Off is an extra hit.

12 * 3 * .167 * 2 =12
12 * 3 * .167 = 6

18 hits not considering big shootas. Previously they were 15 * 4 * .333 = 20

Yes, you could do More DDD and pump them up, but combo wombo is going away. Now you get move and shoot Lootas with way more reliable output and an extra 5 S5 hits


They will not "likely getting 3 shots" to do so requires them to be within 24' of their target, and if they are within 24 they likely wont be using grot shields anymore. And I do want to point out. Lootas weren't in a wonderful place PRIOR to this codex, in fact they were trash tier, so comparing their dakka to old lootas and its not a massive increase just means they aren't in a good place yet again. The only upside right now is that GW realized 20ppm was stupid and instead made them 17...but for every 4 you have to take a spanner, so it works out to 21.25pts per deff gun. Compare dmg output vs A Tac Marine unit.

*Badmoonz*
10 Old Lootas, 200pts. average 20 shots, 3.33 DDD for 1.11 extra DDD hits and 0.18 reroll 1 extra hits as well as 3.33 re-roll 1s for 1.11 extra hits and another 0.18 hits from DDD. Grand total of 9.26 hits, 6.17 wounds and 6.17 dmg.
12 New Lootas, 204pts. Average 24 shots S7 and 6 shots S5. 8 hits and 2 hits for 5.3(1/6th chance of extra -1AP) wounds and 5.3dmg along with 0.44 Grand total 5.74dmg

The "Combo Wombo" as you put it was too expensive after they nerfed Lootas (5CP) but worked out to 40 shots, 18.52 hits, 12.34 wounds and 12.34 dmg.
The New "Combo Wombo" is significantly cheaper (1CP) and works out to 12 hits, 8 wounds and 8dmg as well as 3 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66dmg. Grand total of 8.66.

So yeah, the new lootas are worse at range, better if they can get within 24 but not worth mentioning considering how bad lootas already were. :(




 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






a_typical_hero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


That's because people love to look at past data with the lense of the current meta (where every faction is actually represented in tournament play). They look back at old fifth ed winrates and go "GK only had a 58% wr lololololol" and dont realise the faction spread was like, 95% three different factions, 5% literally everyone else.

that was the competitive norm, FOREVER. Whatever space marine army currently got the most free gak, people would paint their marines purple and swap them between ultras/blood angels/space wolves/whatever typically with identical razorback spam lists, usually Eldar, and then one wild card faction, sometimes Daemons, sometimes Dark Eldar, sometimes Tau, basically never nids or csm. and that would be like 90%+ of the armies people would play if they were into tourneys.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

a_typical_hero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


Honestly the main thing keeping me invested in the game right now is the fact that GW has done a surprisingly good job with both balance and giving all factions interesting, diverse build possibilities; it gives me hope that Tyranids and Guard will get similar treatment.

I'm still not sure how Orks are going to shake out but I am seeing the exact same patterns I have for previous codices: Players zeroing in on nerfed abilities and proclaiming the death of the faction, while others argue that the new buffs will make up for it and it's just the wombo-combos that are being reined in. So far the latter group seems to have been consistently correct, but GW is nothing if not inconsistent.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


It isn't beyond ridiculous. Grot Shield now makes it impossible to target Lootas who will likely be getting 3 shots. Showing Off is an extra hit.

12 * 3 * .167 * 2 =12
12 * 3 * .167 = 6

18 hits not considering big shootas. Previously they were 15 * 4 * .333 = 20

Yes, you could do More DDD and pump them up, but combo wombo is going away. Now you get move and shoot Lootas with way more reliable output and an extra 5 S5 hits


They will not "likely getting 3 shots" to do so requires them to be within 24' of their target, and if they are within 24 they likely wont be using grot shields anymore. And I do want to point out. Lootas weren't in a wonderful place PRIOR to this codex, in fact they were trash tier, so comparing their dakka to old lootas and its not a massive increase just means they aren't in a good place yet again. The only upside right now is that GW realized 20ppm was stupid and instead made them 17...but for every 4 you have to take a spanner, so it works out to 21.25pts per deff gun. Compare dmg output vs A Tac Marine unit.

*Badmoonz*
10 Old Lootas, 200pts. average 20 shots, 3.33 DDD for 1.11 extra DDD hits and 0.18 reroll 1 extra hits as well as 3.33 re-roll 1s for 1.11 extra hits and another 0.18 hits from DDD. Grand total of 9.26 hits, 6.17 wounds and 6.17 dmg.
12 New Lootas, 204pts. Average 24 shots S7 and 6 shots S5. 8 hits and 2 hits for 5.3(1/6th chance of extra -1AP) wounds and 5.3dmg along with 0.44 Grand total 5.74dmg

The "Combo Wombo" as you put it was too expensive after they nerfed Lootas (5CP) but worked out to 40 shots, 18.52 hits, 12.34 wounds and 12.34 dmg.
The New "Combo Wombo" is significantly cheaper (1CP) and works out to 12 hits, 8 wounds and 8dmg as well as 3 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66dmg. Grand total of 8.66.

So yeah, the new lootas are worse at range, better if they can get within 24 but not worth mentioning considering how bad lootas already were. :(





Yeah, I'm not personally a big fan of lootas in general just because most things you want to bring them for are rocking -1 to hit abilities, but you can at least just throw 'em in a trukk now and basically always be within 24". Don't even really need grot shields.

I just like Tankbustas way more. Same point cost, and anecdotally I've found damage flat 3 tends to cold-cock a lot more units these days than damage flat 2, and flat 2 is a lot easier to get on a lot of our melee units and options - anything with a power klaw, anything with a big choppa, most HQs, etc. Kind of like shoota boyz - even if they were half-decent for their points, what's the point? What do you need a couple extra S4 AP- d1 shots for?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





A grot shield that wraps the lootas is thin. Both can move. Bad Moons is +6". Your opponent is required to come mid table to score. There's no reason Lootas won't be kicking off 3 shots most of the time.

   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

a_typical_hero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


I don't know if you misunderstood what Galas was getting at or not but it's preposterous to suggest that this is unprecedented in terms of external balance. Two 70%+ winrate books basically in a row is pretty close to good ol' 7e. And I know, the lows are higher and the have nots aren't in as bad shape as they used to be, but GW doesn't really deserve praise for external balance right now. Maybe 4 months ago or whatever.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:

I just like Tankbustas way more. Same point cost, and anecdotally I've found damage flat 3 tends to cold-cock a lot more units these days than damage flat 2, and flat 2 is a lot easier to get on a lot of our melee units and options - anything with a power klaw, anything with a big choppa, most HQs, etc. Kind of like shoota boyz - even if they were half-decent for their points, what's the point? What do you need a couple extra S4 AP- d1 shots for?


You're going to want a mix of both, I think. Especially when there are no vehicles to target.

4 Lootas do 3.5 to a DE boat. 4 TBs on the move ( for comparison ) do 3.5 as well.

TBs for Gravis, T*, and low invuln. Lootas for Ballistari, DE boats, marines, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I don't know if you misunderstood what Galas was getting at or not but it's preposterous to suggest that this is unprecedented in terms of external balance. Two 70%+ winrate books basically in a row is pretty close to good ol' 7e. And I know, the lows are higher and the have nots aren't in as bad shape as they used to be, but GW doesn't really deserve praise for external balance right now. Maybe 4 months ago or whatever.


It really depends on what they wind up doing about AdMech. Right now DE is definitely taking a back seat. 7e also would have left that 70% WR stand far longer than the month DE got. Will Admech get sorted as quickly? Probably not. My guess is the next Big FAQ, which I have no idea when that would occur these days. September? December?



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/20 16:10:14


   
 
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