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How much will boyz cost with T5 and AP-1 Choppas?
7pts
8pts
9pts
10pts
11pts
12pts
13pts
14pts
15pts

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Made in ca
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

8. GW has been handing out minor buffs in the new codexes for no cost. The exceptions are marine units that gained a wound and has points adjusted up. Just look at what they did for Drukhari Kabalite Warriors.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

I voted 10, not because I think 10 is a good cost but because I worry GW will think 10 ppm is appropriate. Frankly anything above 7 is unpleasant. The only way I see 10ppm working is if other units costs come down.
And as a noncompetitive gamer I will advocate for using power levels in my games if that lets me put the army I want to field on the table.
It really depends. I'm only running about 90 boys now and this is the smallest number of boys I've had in a list since the 4th edition codex, it feels really weird to only have that many and anything above 10 ppm is going to feel like a completely different army, which brings us back around to the other units costs in the codex. Fingers crossed we stay at 8 point boys.

Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Jarms48 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Plenty of units saw durability buffs with no increase. I don't see a huge reason for that here. We may see other changes though.

Now who the hell voted 15 points?


Space Marines got a 2 or 3 point increase for that second wound. Seems pretty reasonable Orks will be around 10 - 11 points with their buffs.


Without being pedantic, this seems like a vague statement, could you elaborate why you feel a 2nd wound on a T4 3+ save model is the same value as +1 T is on a T4 6+ save model? Marines doubled their durability vs 1 Damage weapons for 3 points, they also gained doctrines, super doctrines and chapter tactics. Orkz would go up between 0-33% in durability depending on weapon strength. Previously, 12 S4 hits became 6 wounds and 5 dead Boyz, now its 4 wounds and 3.33 dead boyz, or about 33% more durable. 12 S5 hits went from 8 wounds and 6.6 dead boyz to 5. or about 25% more durable. S6-7 from 6.6 dead boyz to....6.6 dead boyz. no durability increase. And S8-9 went from 8.3 to 6.6 or a 25% increase in durability.

Don't get me wrong, I am very much aware that the majority of weapons in the game are between S3 and S5, but I can say with some certainty that the durability increase for boys will not be even remotely as beneficial as a 2nd wound was to Marines, and of course none of that is even touching on the fact that Ork boyz are already 33% more expensive than they were 2 editions ago, even without buffs like the Marines got; unless you think doctrines/super doctrines and a second wound are comparable to DDD and base S4.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.



Same question I asked above, can you explain/justify those points increases when compared to Marines? Marines got +1 wound and Chain swords also gained +1AP as well as doctrines and super doctrines and I don't see anyone complaining that a Tac Marine is broken OP even though they only went up 3pts for all that.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.



Same question I asked above, can you explain/justify those points increases when compared to Marines? Marines got +1 wound and Chain swords also gained +1AP as well as doctrines and super doctrines and I don't see anyone complaining that a Tac Marine is broken OP even though they only went up 3pts for all that.

Because a marine wasn't worth anywhere near 14 points with 1 wound to begin and a tacmarine is 18 points now an assault intercessor is 19.

I say this assuming orks are going to get an army wide rule to just as every other army has.

Armywide rules really aren't a factor in points anyways. I think they just come out with a blanket rule that has a bunch of bonus rules for every army and call it even.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 alextroy wrote:
8. GW has been handing out minor buffs in the new codexes for no cost. The exceptions are marine units that gained a wound and has points adjusted up. Just look at what they did for Drukhari Kabalite Warriors.


Kabalite Warriors got stat increases in two stats they rarely make use of. T5 and AP-1 on their melee weapon are very much two core stats that ork boyz are getting a ton of use out of it.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.
Only if you amp them up with some upgrades.

They’re also weaker offensively than Genestealers.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd have thought continue at 8 points and see. Its part of the general stat inflation occurring across the game. If they got this increase and Da Jump is thrown in the dumpster for instance, is it really going to be a problem?
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

People mention that AP-1 is a great deal on boyz, but ignore or forget that also marines got AP-1 on chainswords which is actually is an AP-2 in turns 3,4 and 5.

Do you really think that 2 boyz should equal a tactical marine in points? I think a tac is better than 2 boyz, that's why if a tac costs 18 points a boyz should be 8. A grey hunter for 19ppm also has a chainsword, +1 to hit in combat and 3A pretty much everytime, much better shooting with high BS and AP-1 in turn 2, and it's much more resilient with 2W and 3+. To be 9ppm boyz need other buffs/synergies, or a very strong codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
I'd have thought continue at 8 points and see. Its part of the general stat inflation occurring across the game. If they got this increase and Da Jump is thrown in the dumpster for instance, is it really going to be a problem?


Da jump is already meh and super easy to counter. Its best use is to jump meganobz or tankbustas in turn 1, to save 2 CPs from tellyporta or 1 from outflank. 30 boyz with 9th terrain are extremely hard to teleport in a juicy spot in the first turns, and after that there wouldn't be any boyz to teleport .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 07:20:36


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 G00fySmiley wrote:

solid buffs but now the orks are forces to be WAY more organized then I think orks should be. T5 takes care of some of the survivability and the ap-1 from choppas means the buffing characters is much less needed (not in this list but thing like ghaz being mandatory in competitive play with boyz) I am hopign for less buffs to be available in the ork codex and that they are more in the each unit relies on its own abilities kind of book.



So you are hoping GW reverses their trend conveniently with orks?

Good luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.



Same question I asked above, can you explain/justify those points increases when compared to Marines? Marines got +1 wound and Chain swords also gained +1AP as well as doctrines and super doctrines and I don't see anyone complaining that a Tac Marine is broken OP even though they only went up 3pts for all that.


Chainsword isn't on every tac marine. Doctrines and super doctrines came well before point increase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
People mention that AP-1 is a great deal on boyz, but ignore or forget that also marines got AP-1 on chainswords which is actually is an AP-2 in turns 3,4 and 5.

Do you really think that 2 boyz should equal a tactical marine in points? I think a tac is better than 2 boyz, that's why if a tac costs 18 points a boyz should be 8. A grey hunter for 19ppm also has a chainsword, +1 to hit in combat and 3A pretty much everytime, much better shooting with high BS and AP-1 in turn 2, and it's much more resilient with 2W and 3+. To be 9ppm boyz need other buffs/synergies, or a very strong codex.


Ah yes. The one chainsword in tacticals is so scary

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 07:41:42


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Clearly a single sword isn't much but Grey hunters have 3A each (1 base + 1 thanks to the chainsword + 1 to Shock Assault), hit on 2s unless they were already locked in combat, and have AP-1 or AP-2. It's much better than an ork boy.

Assault intercessors, blood claws or BA assault dudes are even scarier, and yet they didn't go much higher in cost, definitely not because they got better AP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 07:49:39


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Karol wrote:
Does the +1T going to transfer to other units ? So ork bikers are going to be t6 and mega nobz and characters are going to recive the buff too?


We don't know for bikers or koptas for sure, as nob bikers in the FW index didn't receive extra toughness, but for all the infantry models it's pretty much confirmed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I think you could get rid of endless GT, but leave da jump (maybe nerf it by requiring the weirdboy to come with, like he used to, making it effectively a one use thing) and buff up defensive buffs with the new painboss and they'd work quite good at 9.


YES! So much yes! I'll gladly take that "nerf", just so my weird boy isn't left hanging around awkwardly after he has jumped away all the boyz around him. That just feels wrong, he totally should go with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 10:44:23


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





8ppm is my prediction. 9ppm if they want to push Snaggas at 10ppm.

Personally I would price boyz at 9 or 10 in order to leave more room at the bottom (and hike the price of some other units, currently undercosted). Snaggas then would be 11 or 12.


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.


80pts for the damage output equivalent of one and a quarter tactical terminators on the charge doesn't seem to me to be "worth his cost in melee output and threat alone."

If you expend your relic, warlord trait, 1cp, AND 80pts, THEN the warboss becomes worth his points in melee for absolutely sure, but you're not only expending the resources of points there.



"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 the_scotsman wrote:

80pts for the damage output equivalent of one and a quarter tactical terminators on the charge doesn't seem to me to be "worth his cost in melee output and threat alone."

If you expend your relic, warlord trait, 1cp, AND 80pts, THEN the warboss becomes worth his points in melee for absolutely sure, but you're not only expending the resources of points there.

To be fair I assume that is what Xenomancers meant. Are there any beatstick HQ models which are taken regularely without WT or relics and are considered to be worth it?

   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






tneva82 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:

solid buffs but now the orks are forces to be WAY more organized then I think orks should be. T5 takes care of some of the survivability and the ap-1 from choppas means the buffing characters is much less needed (not in this list but thing like ghaz being mandatory in competitive play with boyz) I am hopign for less buffs to be available in the ork codex and that they are more in the each unit relies on its own abilities kind of book.



So you are hoping GW reverses their trend conveniently with orks?

Good luck!



You're not wrong, but yes I am hoping at least one faction isn't hero buffing hammer. I get that GW wants HQs to matter a lot but beyond being scared of the boss i don't think the warboss or big mek inspires much beyond "go dere and Fite dat ladz". I do actually think it is thematic and works for other armies, IG has a nice chain of command, as do the imperium. Chaos has a demon pecking order etc, tua military ranks, Tyranid synapse creatures etc. Outside of Ghaz's Waagh though it doesn't seem orky to have that kind of stuff.

Also if i am being completely honest I would like to see codexes be less reliant on HQ buffs in general, let a space marine captain as an example choose a unit and that unit rerolls 1's, that would make for less mass of unit battles with a few characters buffing everything. I think it would make for a more fun and dynamic game. The current missions help a lot with this but you still get gun lines that just aim to overlap shooting buffs and keep the opponent from scoring rather than doing a ton of scoring themselves.

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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Sub-poll: do you think shoota boyz, which won't have any AP in combat, should/will be cheaper than slugga boyz?

They used to be 1ppm cheaper in 3rd, when choppas had some sort of AP-1 (limited any armour to a 4+ max).

 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that

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Except there are dozens of fluff examples where warbosses do exactly that.

Orks aren't a mindless horde that just charges everything. As crude as they are, they do have leaders for leadership reasons (decisions, discipline, taktiks, etc)

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that


So some kind of ability where the space marine captain would give an actual bonus in combat, while your average warboss would just maybe point and yell and get the boyz moving a little faster would fit here, fluffwise.

Got any ideas for what a kustom force field should do if not provide some kind of defensive bubble if you stay within the barrier?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.


Couple things.

1: You have to go all the way back to April to find a Tyranid list that finished in the top 4, and it included a grand total of 0 Genestealers. In fact, there have been 3 Nid top finishes in 2021 so far (sadly that is it :( ) of those, 0 had any genestealers. So saying a Boy shouldn't be less than a stealer isn't a solid argument since nobody is taking them. Also, atm a Genestealer is 15ppm which is about 5-7pts too much in my opinion, but I think a big portion of that cost is tied into the fact that they have insane levels of movement when tied with buffs. To point out how pathetic they actually are in CC, 4 Stealers is 60pts, 3 REGULAR intercessors are 60pts.

3 intercessors (without sgt) get 9 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2 dead stealers
4 stealers get 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds and 2dmg for 1 dead Marine.

So right off the bat, bog standard intercessors BEAT genestealers in CC.

So yeah, Genestealers kind of suck horribly for their price.

2:
the ork even has a gun
...yes, yes he does. lets imagine you da jump 30 boyz into 12' range and fire off all 30 pistols into a Tac Marine unit, guess how much dmg you do? On average you will manage a grand total of ...wait for it...1.94dmg. So 240pts shooting managed to almost kill 18pts of a Tac Marine.

I've played in tournaments where I had 10 boyz left and have forgone the shooting from them because time was running low and I needed to spend it in CC where boyz have a chance of actually doing something. So again, arguing orkz should be as heavily priced as an over priced, never taken unit because they are similar and also have guns is not a very valid point either.

And

3:
Adding a warboss is auto include though.
I just had a tournament on saturday where I went 2 wins and 1 loss without a warboss in my list, and the list I lost to was a net list featuring Dark eldar/eldar and Ynnari and the pilot of said army is a regular GT attendee whose team mate (who he beat that day) just won a GT. Having a warboss wouldn't have helped me in the slightest bit against the army I lost to.

An argument based on Unit A requiring a price hike because if teamed with Unit B it becomes good, not great, just good; is not itself a solid argument. Look at Lootas in 8th, By themselves they were god awful, but when teamed with 4 different stratagems and a unit of Grotz or 3, they became damn good. Sadly, because of that, GW nerfed 1 of the stratagems into oblivion (mob up) and gave the Loota a 3ppm point increase, which keep in mind was about 5-6ppm too much since they were already bad to begin with and were only competitive when buffed with 6+CP a turn as well as a mob of grots to die in their place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:


Ah yes. The one chainsword in tacticals is so scary


Assault intercessors are a thing, and are conveniently, 1ppm cheaper with their -1AP chainswords and +1 attacks, which means even GW realizes that extra attacks and AP in combat isn't worth as much as losing a ranged weapon

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 13:24:53


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 the_scotsman wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that


So some kind of ability where the space marine captain would give an actual bonus in combat, while your average warboss would just maybe point and yell and get the boyz moving a little faster would fit here, fluffwise.

Got any ideas for what a kustom force field should do if not provide some kind of defensive bubble if you stay within the barrier?


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.

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Omnipotent Necron Overlord






There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.

Like OMG...I have to take a warboss on bike! The horor!

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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There are plenty of examples where a Waaagh! is lead by a big mek instead of a warboss.
We also have the wartrike as official leader of speedwaaaghs.

In the 5th edition codex you needed your warboss to be alive to be able to call an army-wide, once per game Waaagh! that allowed *all* ork infantry to advance and charge. I'd love to see that coming back instead of him having an aura.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
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 G00fySmiley wrote:


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.
Than the big mek should come with a 20pt price reduction because that is about the only purpose of the damn thing especially after they nerfed the SAG into the dirt.

Even if was that cheap it still would be a rare choice to see on the board since its only purpose is to buff a single unit with a mediocre save.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.

Like OMG...I have to take a warboss on bike! The horor!


"forced", just did fairly well in a tournament without one, wouldn't have helped me if I had one...so no, not really. But, even assuming you have to take one, how would that justify increasing the cost of boys to that of the aforementioned over priced unit "Genestealers"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
There are plenty of examples where a Waaagh! is lead by a big mek instead of a warboss.
We also have the wartrike as official leader of speedwaaaghs.

In the 5th edition codex you needed your warboss to be alive to be able to call an army-wide, once per game Waaagh! that allowed *all* ork infantry to advance and charge. I'd love to see that coming back instead of him having an aura.


Also, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The fact that they nerfed WAAAGH like that was annoying to say the least.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 14:11:48


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
 
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