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How much will boyz cost with T5 and AP-1 Choppas?
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Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






SemperMortis wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.
Than the big mek should come with a 20pt price reduction because that is about the only purpose of the damn thing especially after they nerfed the SAG into the dirt.

Even if was that cheap it still would be a rare choice to see on the board since its only purpose is to buff a single unit with a mediocre save.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.

Like OMG...I have to take a warboss on bike! The horor!


"forced", just did fairly well in a tournament without one, wouldn't have helped me if I had one...so no, not really. But, even assuming you have to take one, how would that justify increasing the cost of boys to that of the aforementioned over priced unit "Genestealers"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
There are plenty of examples where a Waaagh! is lead by a big mek instead of a warboss.
We also have the wartrike as official leader of speedwaaaghs.

In the 5th edition codex you needed your warboss to be alive to be able to call an army-wide, once per game Waaagh! that allowed *all* ork infantry to advance and charge. I'd love to see that coming back instead of him having an aura.


Also, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The fact that they nerfed WAAAGH like that was annoying to say the least.


a kff big mek is already only 60 points. babysitting a kitted 30 man ork boyz squad (285 points) he adds 33% survivability with a 5++ so expect to save ~95 points worth of models were the whole unit to be destroyed by end of game. his stats are nto terrible in and of itself and repairing options is nice to have . if they did make the kff for one unit (wishlisting here) i think 40 poitns would be too cheap but might say 50-55 might be a reasonable drop.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Didn't the Big Mek catch a 20 point drop in CA?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 G00fySmiley wrote:


a kff big mek is already only 60 points. babysitting a kitted 30 man ork boyz squad (285 points) he adds 33% survivability with a 5++ so expect to save ~95 points worth of models were the whole unit to be destroyed by end of game. his stats are nto terrible in and of itself and repairing options is nice to have . if they did make the kff for one unit (wishlisting here) i think 40 poitns would be too cheap but might say 50-55 might be a reasonable drop.


If you nerf the KFF to only impact 1 unit (probably the big mek as well I hope?) you do not get a 33% increase in survivability on boyz. You get a situational increase of 33%, against no AP weapons its a 16.6% increase in durability, against ALL weapons on a deffskullz (one of the more popular factions right now) unit its a 16.6% increase in survivability in general.

So against no AP weapons you need to save 5 extra boyz MORE than would be saved by their normal armor just to earn its points back let alone be a buff. The big mek provides no real benefit beyond that, and 4 extra S5 attacks isn't going to do much for a mob of boyz. And what about on other models? I use a KFF Big mek to babysit my Mek Gun Parking Lot, take away the bubble and now that big mek is guarding 1 mek gun (40pts). Without the bubble ork vehicles in general need a hefty price cut because they melt when looked at by most of the games current anti-vehicle weaponry.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that


So some kind of ability where the space marine captain would give an actual bonus in combat, while your average warboss would just maybe point and yell and get the boyz moving a little faster would fit here, fluffwise.

Got any ideas for what a kustom force field should do if not provide some kind of defensive bubble if you stay within the barrier?


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.


I hope they don't, because the KFF being able to grant its buff to any number of units as long as they're wholly in range of the buffer is one of the few HQ buffs in the game that actually makes any intuitive sense. Because...it's a force field. It works like a bubble. If youre wholly in it, you're safe, if you're not, you don't get the save until enough models have been killed to allow you to get the save.

Picking one unit (which could be a daisy-chained unit of 30 boyz or a bunch of kanz) would be a rule that would make a lot less sense. Why can my KFF protect 30 boyz in one unit, but not 3 units of 10 boyz occupying the same area? what kind of force field is this?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 15:13:16


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sadly Scotsman, GW has this wonderful tendency to price all things ork based on their potential rather than their average. My poor SAG Big mek, Apparently D6 shots on a BS5+ model that has 2D6 strength is worth 120pts now

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

Just thinking about it and to me if they do something good with DDD and give every boy a shoota, slugga and choppa I might pay 10 ppm for that. mobs would be more dangerous and trukk boys units would be over all better.
I don't know after my last game I've been wanting to field more shoota boys to get my mobs able to put in more work than they are now. even though we can currently mix weapons in the unit I wish we could at the very least give very Ork a choppa 9 at not extra cost.) on top of what ever else they are kitted with.
I'm irritated when I get boxed in and need to reach well past what's got my otherwise noncontributing unit too far out of action.
Can't jump them because they are screened out and sluggas are out of range. And should they be able to mob up to join the fight I am out a whole other scorings unit.
Can't wait to hear what's going to happen with DDD, if anything.
And on that note do you speculate that Slugga boys and Shoota boys will be two different units with different costs?

Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.



In 3rd edition, 3 ork codexes ago, a Warboss was actually mandatory. So it wouldn't be anything new.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well the results have slowed down considerably, it seems most people think 8-9pts which is what I really hope it becomes (Hoping for 8) but we will see soon enough.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Blackie wrote:
Sub-poll: do you think shoota boyz, which won't have any AP in combat, should/will be cheaper than slugga boyz?

They used to be 1ppm cheaper in 3rd, when choppas had some sort of AP-1 (limited any armour to a 4+ max).


In answer to this sub-question - if the only change to shoota boyz is +1T (or +1T and the shoota becoming RF), then I could see them becoming cheaper than slugga boyz.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Dysartes wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Sub-poll: do you think shoota boyz, which won't have any AP in combat, should/will be cheaper than slugga boyz?

They used to be 1ppm cheaper in 3rd, when choppas had some sort of AP-1 (limited any armour to a 4+ max).


In answer to this sub-question - if the only change to shoota boyz is +1T (or +1T and the shoota becoming RF), then I could see them becoming cheaper than slugga boyz.


if I had to guess, GW will be addressing the shoota as well to try to keep boys streamlined at the same price point. ATM a shoota boy gets 2 shots at S4 and 18' range no AP. Those 2 shots result in 0.77 hits, against a T4 target that is 0.38 wounds and against a 3+ save that is 0.12 dmg. In other words, for a unit of shoota boyz to average 1 kill against a Marine stat line they need 16 boyz (128pts to kill 18). Going back to the baseline of ork boys from editions past and the ork mindset in general...DAKKA DAKKA! in other words, orkz were always intended to have bad accuracy but a LOT of shots. At the moment a lot of other factions have more shots per point and at better BS than orkz do. With that in mind I wouldn't at all be surprised if Shootas get 3 shots and -1AP. Believe it or not, that actually more than DOUBLES Ork efficiency in shooting against most targets.

If Boyz get Rapid fire 2....than they might as well not receive anything considering how bad that mechanic will be with boyz in the majority of circumstances. What would be the point? 2 shots at normal range is what we have now, and the CHANCE of getting 4 shots at 9' sounds great until you realize you have to be a fool to get within 9' range of boyz and a deepstrike is >9 meaning the Rapid Fire change wouldn't be a buff of any real note...unles they also increased our range to that of the bolter (24).

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Philadelphia

Probably 10 Points I'd assume

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Stevefamine wrote:
Probably 10 Points I'd assume


Just to rehash this point,
10 boyz right now are 80pts. In CC They get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and against a Marine that is 3.33 dmg.
8 boyz at 10ppm would be 80pts. In CC they would get 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds and against a Marine that is 4dmg.

Durability wise:
10 boyz take 12 wounds to kill, which is 24 S4 hits.
8 Boyz (T5) take 9.7 wounds to kill which is 29.1 S4 hits.

So the question I have for you is do you think Ork boyz are actually close to being as competitive as they should be in terms of both dmg output AND durability and that is why you think a 25% increase in points over a 33% increase in price since 7th is justified?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Yeah, 10 boyz that costs exactly like 5 intercessors would be really really sad. Unless of course they get other buffs, we don't have the whole picture yet.

 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






I'm expecting the shoota to be S5.

Rarely hits but when it does its a decent chance of wounding
   
Made in us
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Australia

Going with 9 - seems about right for a mob of 10, plus a special weapon or two to sit around the 100-110 mark.

 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I hope they are 15ppm because I am bored waiting for ork players to move their hordes. Same with Nids and IG. Yes....please, measure EACH model three times before moving it two inches! JUST LIKE THAT! Now re-measure after the move and re-adjust the ones in the back!
   
Made in us
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 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm expecting the shoota to be S5.

Rarely hits but when it does its a decent chance of wounding


Nah my bet is ghazzy's weapon trait (current number but rapid fire) ison all shoota weaponry.

Heavy shoota - rapid 3
shoota - rapid 2
supa-shoota - rapid 4

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I hope they are 15ppm because I am bored waiting for ork players to move their hordes. Same with Nids and IG. Yes....please, measure EACH model three times before moving it two inches! JUST LIKE THAT! Now re-measure after the move and re-adjust the ones in the back!


that's just bad players then, a experienced player will measure the 2 corner models in a horde and just zip all the rest up between them. If the table has little enough friction (like felt ro plain wood/plastic) i just literally push the horde up to the spot they go next. moving a 30 man boy squad should take under a min for an experienced ork player unl;ess they are trying to daisy chain into an objective or something

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Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






My "120 ork goff boyz army" is very quick to play. Not much shooting, very little psychic, pushing 5-man movement trays (and "disembarking" them from the trays when they need to) is quite fast. Actually the only phase which takes a bit of time is the assault phase (too much dice rolling, hopefully next codex will reduce this).
Toughness 5 boyz will limit (hopefully) the number of dead boyz each turn, so logistics should get even better next codex

Without the investement in movement trays I wouldn't play it though

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 12:01:29


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 G00fySmiley wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I hope they are 15ppm because I am bored waiting for ork players to move their hordes. Same with Nids and IG. Yes....please, measure EACH model three times before moving it two inches! JUST LIKE THAT! Now re-measure after the move and re-adjust the ones in the back!


that's just bad players then, a experienced player will measure the 2 corner models in a horde and just zip all the rest up between them. If the table has little enough friction (like felt ro plain wood/plastic) i just literally push the horde up to the spot they go next. moving a 30 man boy squad should take under a min for an experienced ork player unl;ess they are trying to daisy chain into an objective or something


Yeah, also movement trays exist. If someone is playing 120+ boyz without movement trays, get a chess clock and chuck it at their head.

Most ork players also don't really like playing that many models. We have so many cool things in our codex, but game balance always forces us to skew into most wounds per points as that is literally the only defense stat orks have.

I dearly miss the times of 5th edition's battlewagon bash. A beautiful and orky army just shy of 100 models. Maybe beastsnaggas make it possible again.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 12:24:50


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




You guys are making the assumption that there is no malice or intent behind slow playing as a horde army. I'm like, dude this isn't a GT. Just tell me what your intent is and I'll agree to play along.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You guys are making the assumption that there is no malice or intent behind slow playing as a horde army. I'm like, dude this isn't a GT. Just tell me what your intent is and I'll agree to play along.


What's the point of slow playing in non-timed events? The only purpose I see is to increase your back pain after the game from staying hunched over the game even longer than you have to anyways.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

To irritate/annoy your opponent into calling it quits.


It might seem petty, but it is a real thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 13:03:44


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




What is the point of cheating in any form if it's just a game of toy soldiers. Because some people are just that way. Also it's not always cheating, sometimes the player is just super anal and wants each model to be perfectly placed.

I'm not saying it happens every game. I'm just saying I like that GW was going away from 90+ model armies, and I would think these recent buffs to the basic stats of Boys was a step in that direction. If they start costing 10+ppm then that puts a serious damp cloth on the 2nd biggest horde army/faction in the game.
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What is the point of cheating in any form if it's just a game of toy soldiers. Because some people are just that way. Also it's not always cheating, sometimes the player is just super anal and wants each model to be perfectly placed.

I'm not saying it happens every game. I'm just saying I like that GW was going away from 90+ model armies, and I would think these recent buffs to the basic stats of Boys was a step in that direction. If they start costing 10+ppm then that puts a serious damp cloth on the 2nd biggest horde army/faction in the game.


This should feature in the GW "Code" they just released. Dont be "Super anal" and stop wanting ach model to be perfectly placed. The "first line" models need to be, but the rest, not so much.

DONT BE TOO ANAL, be nice, and the game will go great. I exalted because "anal" is such the perfect adjective

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






I expect 9 or 10pts for boyz, 11 or 12pts for beast snagga boys.

Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
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 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Going with 9 - seems about right for a mob of 10, plus a special weapon or two to sit around the 100-110 mark.


ATM boyz can take 1 heavy weapon per 10 boyz. So you could take 1 rokkit for 10 boyz. Nobody really takes big shootas if they don't have to

 the_scotsman wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm expecting the shoota to be S5.

Rarely hits but when it does its a decent chance of wounding


Nah my bet is ghazzy's weapon trait (current number but rapid fire) ison all shoota weaponry.

Heavy shoota - rapid 3
shoota - rapid 2
supa-shoota - rapid 4


I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.

LOL - please no.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.


30 Shoota boyz atm is 60 shots, 23.3 hits, against a Marine that is 11.6 wounds and 3.8dmg. So 240pts ALMOST kills 2 Marines, or 36pts.

Lets upgrade DDD to be hits not shots.

30 shoota boyz, 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds 5 dmg. So now 240pts of Boyz is killing 2.5 Marines.

Lets keep the DDD Upgrade AND get all those 30 boyz somehow within 9' of their target. 120 shots, 60 hits, 30 wounds 10dmg for 5 Dead Marines. So under optimal circumstances those 240pts of boyz are just able to kill 90pts of Marines out in the open. Now, if they give shootas -1AP maybe, than the math goes to those 240pts of boyz killing 7.5 Marines, not bad, again, it will almost never ever happen but its theoretically possible, but at this point we are straying into "The SAG can ONE SHOT KNIGHTS!" territory.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
 
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