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GW succeeds in spite of itself (see full quotation in the OP, below).
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Made in gb
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Alan Merritt. You know, the guy who was in charge of canon for warhammer and warhammer 40k?

Obviously I don't hence why I asked. Of course, the important part of this reply is the was. Merritt was in charge of canon. He is no longer with the company and his views are no longer relevant.

It hasn't been contradicted, and GW has added references it to current codecies.

There are parts of content written for licensed products like certain Xenos or the Blood Ravens that have been added to what is considered to be 40k canon, yes but it is not a blank cheque, and it is not accurate to say that everything found within the FFG RPG's is considered canon.

But, since you're winding up to argue that nothing out of print is canon, I'll point out that it's not unknown for currently in use codecies to be out of print. Or, do you think that when the webstore stops selling it, it magically leaves canon?

Out of stock and out of production are not the same thing.

And, you guys are still evading my point. Stop blowing smoke.

The point being what exactly? Dakka isn't all bad but it is by no means the premier place to discuss 40k and other TTWG.
I'm also not white-knighting for GW I'm just calling you out on your BS.
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Gert wrote:

The point being what exactly?


That the survey above is a lot more typical of the views of the 40k fanbase than you're willing to admit.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Gert wrote:

The point being what exactly?


That the survey above is a lot more typical of the views of the 40k fanbase than you're willing to admit.


Well as a white knight shill branded person based on my opinions, I voted true.

GW have had some high and low points over the years, but as much success as they are having, I honestly think it's built on the backs of long time players and it's also smaller than it could be.

They've slipped out of main chain toy shops for the most part, the cost has moved away from what a child/teenager can drop on any form of regularity. They've whored the license out to too many shovelware game developers and maybe held too tightly to the controls of their IP, when perhaps less favourable deals with bigger names would have done more good.

Resounding success, no doubt, but I think they sold themselves short.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Gert wrote:

The point being what exactly?


That the survey above is a lot more typical of the views of the 40k fanbase than you're willing to admit.


I think you are missing the point. The issue is not so much whether dakka is representative of other forums, as whether forums at all are representative of the wider customer base.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Firstly, who is AM?


Alan Merritt. You know, the guy who was in charge of canon for warhammer and warhammer 40k?


Never heard of him. Is he any relation to Alan Merrett?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 18:45:05


 
   
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Inside Yvraine

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Conversely, I can show you an example of a game that was burned down by it's own players when the company ignored their demands for every one that kept going unbothered.
Which would be a meaningless gesture because we arent talking about "the players", we are talking about the vocal minority that are online communities. To bring us back on focus: your assertion is that a random poll on dakkadakka is somehow worth a feth as a reflection of the playerbase as a whole. Your assertion is wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 18:50:57


 
   
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Dudeface wrote:
They've whored the license out to too many shovelware game developers and maybe held too tightly to the controls of their IP, when perhaps less favourable deals with bigger names would have done more good.

Resounding success, no doubt, but I think they sold themselves short.

For every Space Marine or Battlefleet Gothic, there's a Lost Crusade or Horus Heresy: Drop Assault. That being said not all mobile games are trash just the vast majority. It's a cursed chalice because, without the mobile games, I doubt there would be much push for good console/pc games although I think (as with most things Warhammer) the negativity spawned from the really bad stuff drowns out the really good stuff.
   
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 Gert wrote:
The claim that Dakka has more 40k writers and creators than any other platform barring Twitter is nonsense and there's been absolutely no effort made to support the claim, which coming from Baron is in no way shocking.


Given that claim would include, er, Facebook...

*insert captainhaddock.jpg*
   
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soviet13 wrote:
I think you are missing the point. The issue is not so much whether dakka is representative of other forums, as whether forums at all are representative of the wider customer base.
It isn't saying anything, I just like to mention it: From my local gaming club with about 20-30 active 40k and AoS players, I know of nobody else than me, who is actively posting on Dakka. The rest is consuming online ressources of course, but they don't engage in forums.

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The new Orks Dakka game looks like fun and it's on the Switch so my nephews can play.
   
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SoCal

GW is undeniably financially successful. However, I can’t think of another company in tabletop gaming that shows as much contempt for its customers in every facet of the customer experience…Maybe CMON. So, yes, GW succeeds in spite of itself.

Also, this poll is in a GW ai forum where ex-customers of GW are unlikely to see it, so I wouldn’t consider it representative of the TT community views overall, but rather of a smaller, more positive subset of gamers.

   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
GW is undeniably financially successful. However, I can’t think of another company in tabletop gaming that shows as much contempt for its customers in every facet of the customer experience…Maybe CMON. So, yes, GW succeeds in spite of itself.

Also, this poll is in a GW ai forum where ex-customers of GW are unlikely to see it, so I wouldn’t consider it representative of the TT community views overall, but rather of a smaller, more positive subset of gamers.


If this is the positive subset, I'd hate to see the content of the less positive ones
   
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Polls on forums are about the best you can do in lieu of professional marketing research... even if biases like, the fact that more people actively playing the game or hobbling are more probable to interact with these forums, and thus may have some sort of tendency to like the game product and company. Also, there are biases that people seek conflict and are more probable to comment on things they have problems with.

The argument of the validity of the data is hardly worth arguing without any other data to compare it to. The trends are still useful to observe as well.

So either produce your own empirical evidence of the feelings of the community or stop arguing the validity of the data.

GW is successful because they like every other successful company are making decisions that benefit the company. Their decisions are very well informed. The fact that we hate it but keep going back for more only proves it more.

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your mind

What is odd, to me, though maybe it shouldn’t be, is that after all of these pages, and especially the past few in which some posters had been active in discounting the value of the varied opinions here, ‘toxic Dakka’ and so on, poll results are moving slowly and steadily True… currently 59 to 41 percent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
macluvin wrote:
Polls on forums are about the best you can do in lieu of professional marketing research... even if biases like, the fact that more people actively playing the game or hobbling are more probable to interact with these forums, and thus may have some sort of tendency to like the game product and company. Also, there are biases that people seek conflict and are more probable to comment on things they have problems with.

The argument of the validity of the data is hardly worth arguing without any other data to compare it to. The trends are still useful to observe as well.

So either produce your own empirical evidence of the feelings of the community or stop arguing the validity of the data.

GW is successful because they like every other successful company are making decisions that benefit the company. Their decisions are very well informed. The fact that we hate it but keep going back for more only proves it more.

Yes, I think also that this thread and its poll results are valuable and interesting. Thanks for this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 20:35:23


   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

soviet13 wrote:

I think you are missing the point. The issue is not so much whether dakka is representative of other forums, as whether forums at all are representative of the wider customer base.


The survey I posted was supposedly from the customer satisfaction survey from China's Official Online Warhammer retailer, not a forum.

soviet13 wrote:

Never heard of him. Is he any relation to Alan Merrett?


Yes, yes, I misspelled his last name. I also used the past tense because I can't remember if he was still the head of IP development over at GW or had been replaced. It's been a while since I've even thought about him.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Macon, GA

There's an old joke, I forget if it was from early Dakka or the 40k newsgroup, that summed up some of this epistemological quandary:

q: Why is everybody on here always complaining about GW?

a: Because the happy people are too busy playing the game!

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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Which would be a meaningless gesture because we arent talking about "the players", we are talking about the vocal minority that are online communities. To bring us back on focus: your assertion is that a random poll on dakkadakka is somehow worth a feth as a reflection of the playerbase as a whole. Your assertion is wrong.


Not all Online Communities are actually a 'vocal minority'.

I've offered additional proof that I'm right. What have you offered again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Polonius wrote:
There's an old joke, I forget if it was from early Dakka or the 40k newsgroup, that summed up some of this epistemological quandary:

q: Why is everybody on here always complaining about GW?

a: Because the happy people are too busy playing the game!


'Why does everyone complain about GW? Because everybody else has already quit. " was the version from over on Warseer. I vaguely remember that Brimmy banned me there for a week for repeating it as a limerick.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 20:56:58



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Also, I just have to note that while a lot of you gak on dakka, not one of you has actually demonstrated that you wouldn't get exactly the same result anywhere else. Maybe you should try proving your points instead of just attacking the community when they voice an opinion you don't like?


Mmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
'Why does everyone complain about GW? Because everybody else has already quit. " was the version from over on Warseer. I vaguely remember that Brimmy banned me there for a week for repeating it as a limerick.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:00:05


   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Which would be a meaningless gesture because we arent talking about "the players", we are talking about the vocal minority that are online communities. To bring us back on focus: your assertion is that a random poll on dakkadakka is somehow worth a feth as a reflection of the playerbase as a whole. Your assertion is wrong.


Not all Online Communities are actually a 'vocal minority'.

I've offered additional proof that I'm right. What have you offered again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Polonius wrote:
There's an old joke, I forget if it was from early Dakka or the 40k newsgroup, that summed up some of this epistemological quandary:

q: Why is everybody on here always complaining about GW?

a: Because the happy people are too busy playing the game!


'Why does everyone complain about GW? Because everybody else has already quit. " was the version from over on Warseer. I vaguely remember that Brimmy banned me there for a week for repeating it.


You offer survey results that for some reason include partially completed forms, from a source you note as "supposedly" relating to people's want to attend and purchase from 1 specific store. I don't buy from my local GW but it doesn't mean I don't think they're successful.

In the event that is *actual* data from the Chinese flagship store, which you can't validate, it just shows that the people voting don't want to go to or buy from an official GW. I don't think it has any bearing on this forum, poll or the success of the company.

Quick edit to tidy my thoughts up (I'm pretty tired): there's no frame of reference for who or what that poll was aimed at. As such it holds no real weight in any capacity, certainly not as an indicator of an "online community".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:11:09


 
   
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your mind

Umm,… dudeface, given that the poll results are valid concerning the official gw store in China, a rising market of well over a billion people with lots of extra young men with zero hopes of marrying, and without the thirty year background and anchor base of neck bearded hobbyists, it does seem to inform this thread, at least tangentially. I mean, it is certainly interesting to see those numbers, no? Do you really honestly think that Baron just made that up? Maybe drew the characters and fabricated the results just to make a point on this thread? I don’t believe that you really think that…

But then, what would count as having bearing on any of the above? For you?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:11:57


   
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 jeff white wrote:
Umm,… dudeface, given that the poll results are valid concerning the official gw store in China, a rising market of well over a billion people with lots of extra young men with zero hopes of marrying, and without the thirty year background and anchor base of neck bearded hobbyists, it does seem to inform this thread, at least tangentially. I mean, it is certainly interesting to see those numbers, no? Do you really honestly thing that Baton just made that up? Maybe drew the characters and fabricated the results just to make a point on this thread? I don’t believe that you really think that…

But then, what would count as having bearing on any of the above? For you?


I buy games workshop products, I play warhammer. I have no intent of attending events held at my local GW nor buying from them directly however, does that mean GW is failing because I'd select no to all of those?

Again unless you can source those poll results and the parameters for who completed the poll, it's essentially worthless.
   
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your mind

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Also, I just have to note that while a lot of you gak on dakka, not one of you has actually demonstrated that you wouldn't get exactly the same result anywhere else. Maybe you should try proving your points instead of just attacking the community when they voice an opinion you don't like?


Mmm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
'Why does everyone complain about GW? Because everybody else has already quit. " was the version from over on Warseer. I vaguely remember that Brimmy banned me there for a week for repeating it as a limerick.



Ok Daed, I don’t get it… what is this supposed to be telling us?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
Umm,… dudeface, given that the poll results are valid concerning the official gw store in China, a rising market of well over a billion people with lots of extra young men with zero hopes of marrying, and without the thirty year background and anchor base of neck bearded hobbyists, it does seem to inform this thread, at least tangentially. I mean, it is certainly interesting to see those numbers, no? Do you really honestly thing that Baton just made that up? Maybe drew the characters and fabricated the results just to make a point on this thread? I don’t believe that you really think that…

But then, what would count as having bearing on any of the above? For you?


I buy games workshop products, I play warhammer. I have no intent of attending events held at my local GW nor buying from them directly however, does that mean GW is failing because I'd select no to all of those?

Again unless you can source those poll results and the parameters for who completed the poll, it's essentially worthless.


Ok, fair enough. Note that the original question is not about gw failing, but rather that it succeeds in spite of itself. Can gw count on similar success in China given the validity of Baron’s poll results? I mean, let’s just assume that they are what they are supposed to be… what might be different about that market, and can this tell us something about what we might expect, there? Can GW afford to depend on succeeding in spite of itself there, if that is indeed what is happening, ‘here’?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:20:51


   
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Dudeface wrote:

You offer survey results that for some reason include partially completed forms, from a source you note as "supposedly" relating to people's want to attend and purchase from 1 specific store. I don't buy from my local GW but it doesn't mean I don't think they're successful.


I didn't collect them myself, and it's from China, so I consider it 'supposedly'. And, you can't actually 'attend' that store. Tiān Māo is a site like Amazon that makes up about 50% of China's online retail.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jeff white wrote:

Ok Daed, I don’t get it… what is this supposed to be telling us?


This makes two of us, since I'm not gaking on warseer, just relating the version of the same joke I had heard over there back in the day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:25:00



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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 jeff white wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
Umm,… dudeface, given that the poll results are valid concerning the official gw store in China, a rising market of well over a billion people with lots of extra young men with zero hopes of marrying, and without the thirty year background and anchor base of neck bearded hobbyists, it does seem to inform this thread, at least tangentially. I mean, it is certainly interesting to see those numbers, no? Do you really honestly thing that Baton just made that up? Maybe drew the characters and fabricated the results just to make a point on this thread? I don’t believe that you really think that…

But then, what would count as having bearing on any of the above? For you?


I buy games workshop products, I play warhammer. I have no intent of attending events held at my local GW nor buying from them directly however, does that mean GW is failing because I'd select no to all of those?

Again unless you can source those poll results and the parameters for who completed the poll, it's essentially worthless.


Ok, fair enough. Note that the original question is not about gw failing, but rather that it succeeds in spite of itself. Can gw count on similar success in China given the validity of Baron’s poll results? I mean, let’s just assume that they are what they are supposed to be… what might be different about that market, and can this tell us something about what we might expect, there? Can GW afford to depend on succeeding in spite of itself there, if that is indeed what is happening, ‘here’?


That's a better question and thank you for understanding my intent. As explained earlier it definitely succeeds in spite of itself in my eyes.

I'm not familiar enough with their Chinese presence to know how they're doing now, or what their plans are, but it's pretty uniformal for 3rd party retailers and FLGS to be the bulk of the sales for GW by and large. I'd imagine as with any niche largely socially eskewed product in a new environment, it'll take time to build up interest and a social base. So it's concerning to see those figures if relevant to anything, but I'm also not super surprised, again without knowing all the parameters and context it doesn't help much.

Their choice to eschew a lot of wider media giants to deliver their content in lieu of their own platform, combined with them being late to the game probably means rolling out a product into a new market for them is harder than it should be.

Again though, this relies on a "what if" on the data validity and context. But I think its time to hit the hay, I just hope by the next time I drop in it's not locked for inducing China-orientated political discourse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

You offer survey results that for some reason include partially completed forms, from a source you note as "supposedly" relating to people's want to attend and purchase from 1 specific store. I don't buy from my local GW but it doesn't mean I don't think they're successful.


I didn't collect them myself, and it's from China, so I consider it 'supposedly'. And, you can't actually 'attend' that store. Tiān Māo is a site like Amazon that makes up about 50% of China's online retail.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jeff white wrote:

Ok Daed, I don’t get it… what is this supposed to be telling us?


This makes two of us, since I'm not gaking on warseer, just relating the version of the same joke I had heard over there back in the day.


Historically I bought a whole 1 warhammer item off amazon, they're more expensive generally than most other 3rd party retailers. No idea if the same applies over there however.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:37:10


 
   
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"not one of you has actually demonstrated that you wouldn't get exactly the same result anywhere else"

While not speaking for him. You posted a result somewhere else and got banned for it seems to be what it was going for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:38:37


 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 jeff white wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Also, I just have to note that while a lot of you gak on dakka, not one of you has actually demonstrated that you wouldn't get exactly the same result anywhere else. Maybe you should try proving your points instead of just attacking the community when they voice an opinion you don't like?


Mmm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
'Why does everyone complain about GW? Because everybody else has already quit. " was the version from over on Warseer. I vaguely remember that Brimmy banned me there for a week for repeating it as a limerick.



Ok Daed, I don’t get it… what is this supposed to be telling us?

Never mind. There's no really good way to phrase this that won't be viewed as a personal attack or skirting it.

Suffice to say, this online community isn't all that big. People get known for their posting habits.


Dudeface wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
Umm,… dudeface, given that the poll results are valid concerning the official gw store in China, a rising market of well over a billion people with lots of extra young men with zero hopes of marrying, and without the thirty year background and anchor base of neck bearded hobbyists, it does seem to inform this thread, at least tangentially. I mean, it is certainly interesting to see those numbers, no? Do you really honestly thing that Baton just made that up? Maybe drew the characters and fabricated the results just to make a point on this thread? I don’t believe that you really think that…

But then, what would count as having bearing on any of the above? For you?


I buy games workshop products, I play warhammer. I have no intent of attending events held at my local GW nor buying from them directly however, does that mean GW is failing because I'd select no to all of those?

Again unless you can source those poll results and the parameters for who completed the poll, it's essentially worthless.


Ok, fair enough. Note that the original question is not about gw failing, but rather that it succeeds in spite of itself. Can gw count on similar success in China given the validity of Baron’s poll results? I mean, let’s just assume that they are what they are supposed to be… what might be different about that market, and can this tell us something about what we might expect, there? Can GW afford to depend on succeeding in spite of itself there, if that is indeed what is happening, ‘here’?

Baron's poll isn't likely valid though?

Spoiler:


Seriously. Do you believe for one iota of an instant that a corporation would allow for a poll to be run that has "sales etc i guess" in it?

And you do know that anyone can actually make surveys and the like, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:43:58


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:

Baron's poll isn't likely valid though?

Spoiler:


Seriously. Do you believe for one iota of an instant that a corporation would allow for a poll to be run that has "sales etc i guess" in it?


I've seen worse Chinese auto-translate copy-pastes. Just google "translation fails" to see a bunch of examples. Most of which are printed onto physical signs, let alone a website survey.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 21:55:19



 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:

Seriously. Do you believe for one iota of an instant that a corporation would allow for a poll to be run that has "sales etc i guess" in it?


Do you believe for one iota of an instant that this is a GW sanctioned translation?


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Oh for heaven’s sake. I’m genuinely done with this thread.

GW are massively hundreds of millions of GBP successful, year on year. And that’s entirely flying in the face of a relative handful of upset internet posters.

Simply put, GW are astoundingly successful. That success doesn’t care what said relative handful of upset internet posters thinks.

It is what it is.

Perhaps you have good reason to be upset. I don’t care. Perhaps you’re just an oddboy with an inexplicable axe to grind.

GW’s success is entirely off their own back. To suggest otherwise is basically calling those of us who buy whatever we damn well please “a bit thick”. As if we’ve been somehow hoodwinked into having the sheer temerity to enjoy this hobby we’ve sunk thousands into.

You don’t like it? Genuinely fair enough. I’m not gonna be a Richard about it.

But how’s about you, in turn, don’t be a Richard to those who, fully willingly, gladly chuck money at those of us who do happen to enjoy it?

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

GW’s success is entirely off their own back. To suggest otherwise is basically calling those of us who buy whatever we damn well please “a bit thick”. As if we’ve been somehow hoodwinked into having the sheer temerity to enjoy this hobby we’ve sunk thousands into.


Doc, that's a lovely rant you've got there, but pointing out that GW has been succeeding despite some really blockheaded decisions is hardly an attack on you, personally. Is it your fault that GW decided to jack their prices in China a reputed 26% recently? If so, then I could see it as an attack on you. In the mean time, stop flogging the drama llama.


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It's not that GW is too big to fail, it's that they're too big to fail right now. Meaning that their current massive customer base and their current massive earnings afford them the ability to experiment, try new and different things and to a degree, screw up with little to no detriment. GW will need to see a continued downward trend in sales before they can realize they've done something wrong. Until that happens, it's going to be an unpredictable and at times uncomfortable ride.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 23:25:20


 
   
 
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