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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're gone. Most things are gone. It's almost 100% Primaris 100% of the time (particularly from an infantry perspective).



Looking at the contents, we can see the following First Born units remain:

1. Sicarius
2. Lysander
3. Vulkan He'stan
4. Chaplain with Jump Pack (for... some reason)
5. Tactical Squad
6. Vanguard Veterans Squad with Jump Packs
7. Centurion Assault Squad
8. Centurion Devastator Squad
9. Devastator Squad
10. Whirlwind
11. Predator Destructor
12. Predator Annihilator
13. Vindicator
14. Rhino
15. Razorback (God knows who can use this vehicle in the new book)
16. Stormraven
17. Stormhawk
18. Stormtalon

Blood angels and Space Wolves can use those remaining odd units.

I just pre-ordered the new codex and a box of termies. Also, new terminators and a bigger scale but no "Assault terminator" kit/options for the new size?

In the current data sheets. What is like the better Terminator loadout? I know it can change with the new book but I can magnetize or pin to solve that.

I also have the 5 termies from the Leviathan box set too. Just haven't touched/messed with any of the marine options in that box at all.

since 8th edition: "GW should just make primaris marines, and stop diffrentiating em!"
*GW starts doing that*

"WAIT GW HOW DARE YOU REMOVE STUFF!"


ahh never change dakka


Scouts are scouts, the primaris keyword is no longer a thing

BrianDavion wrote:
ahh never change dakka

I hate posts like this. They miss the point being made in order to erect the world's biggest strawman.

 Rogzor87 wrote:
I just pre-ordered the new codex and a box of termies. Also, new terminators and a bigger scale but no "Assault terminator" kit/options for the new size?

In the current data sheets. What is like the better Terminator loadout? I know it can change with the new book but I can magnetize or pin to solve that.

I also have the 5 termies from the Leviathan box set too. Just haven't touched/messed with any of the marine options in that box at all.

I think the new detachments are going to impact things. My gut reaction looking at the datasheet is that the cyclone is pretty nice, but if you are going with the “we murder things under 12” detachment, the AsC or HF look a LOT better. And it’s not like they are bad now. What characters and plans you have for them could also impact things. If you plan on overwatching, the flamer is the right tool for that job.

How often are you looking to carve open big tanks? Chianfists always wound on a 3+ vs. them, but are -1 TH vs. the powerfists all the time. For the sarge I don’t see a whole lot of reasons to keep him with the sword now that we will be able to give him a fist. A single extra attack is not worth the drop in S/D. Way back when it still struck at initiative when the rest of the squad was hitting last it at least had some use. Can’t see much use now. Unless you are just wading through endless waves of tiny gribbles, but you’ve got better things to be killing, and it’s marginal there (Not going to do the mathhammer, but the S8 on the fists is probably going to outweigh the extra attack on anything tougher then T2)

Add a grain of salt, this is just theoryhammer. Been a bit since my terminators hit the field. But I do like how they are looking these days, rules and models.

Note that a lot of characters are combined, not replaced. While some went away (Captain on Bike being maybe the most dramatic), you can still field firstborn Captains, Librarians, etc. using the respective datasheets, and while they do have the "Tacticus" keyword there's a special carveout for the Rhino and Razorback to allow them to transport squads that contain Tacticus models, and the new combined datasheets allow characters to join both Primaris and firstborn squads rather than being segregated.

There is some loss of weapon options, which is annoying, but overall I consider the new Codex's approach to Marine characters to be a distinct step forward, not backwards.

After looking at some things, I am wonder about the possibilities of using Uriel Ventris for a single Deep Strike, plus Blade Driven Deep for Infiltrate to get some units into the enemy early, while support units sit in the backfield and shoot, etc. I could even put in Captain Sicarius for a Scout-move unit too. Add in a unit in a Drop Pod and some Inceptors and suddenly the army is full of deployment shenanigans.

I wonder if that is even remotely worthwhile.

I disagree re: heavy flamers on terminators. S6 isn't a lot of help. I'd rather get S10 on the cyclone. Just because it has range 48" doesn't mean you can't shoot it within 12".

Things that have gone up in relative value with the change to oath (i.e. fallen less):
-Things with naturally high strength. Rerolls nearly doubled the effectiveness of stuff that needs 6s, but added only ~16% to stuff that needs 2s.
-Things with natural rerolls to wound. (Aggressors, lancers, eradicators).
-Things that boost wounding. (Thunderstrike)
-Grav.
-Things that grant lethal hits (lieutenant, apothecary biologis)

I do think the CML is the best call, but there are times I think the flamer has some use. If you wanted to camp out in the middle of the table and overwatch things, it would be my go-to.

But for a generic TAC build? Missiles.

The one I’m having trouble deciding on is the AsC. It can take advantage of the wound thing if you have a way to leverage that, but otherwise seems a bit middle of the road, worst of both worlds…

I feel like if I were running "Tactical Terminators" I'd probably go with CML and all chainfists. -1 to hit in melee with the chainfist hurts, but going from wounding vehicles on fives to wounding them on threes seems probably worth it, especially since Terminators might be hunting for big targets -- even a Rhino or Storm Speeder is toughness 9 this edition!

 Nevelon wrote:
I do think the CML is the best call, but there are times I think the flamer has some use. If you wanted to camp out in the middle of the table and overwatch things, it would be my go-to.

But for a generic TAC build? Missiles.

The one I’m having trouble deciding on is the AsC. It can take advantage of the wound thing if you have a way to leverage that, but otherwise seems a bit middle of the road, worst of both worlds…

I think the AssCans have a use, if you wanted to tool your Terminators for anti-infantry duty. They can reach out and touch something further away than the heavy flamer can, and they always get 6 shots, unlike the frag missiles from the CMLs. Plus Devastating Wounds, which lets them hurt tougher stuff with good saves at least sometimes. Agreed that the CML is better for a TAC build though, as it can do something vs. any target.

New rules for Tactical Squads make them actually interesting, as being able to split them up can let you cover more ground with them. Like, keep 5 basic bolter dudes on your backfield objective, while the other 5 (which includes the special weapons) go do stuff/push forwards. I actually wonder if it could make a Razorback worth taking; probably not as I think they're too expensive and I'm slightly salty that they lost the AssCan option.

Assault Cannon has been my favorite gun in 3rd, 5th, 6th(editions I played). So Its sad to see its not as good but 6shots and Dev wounds make it seem useful still?

Outside of Dark Angels/Deathwing which army does best focusing on Terminators?

I played BA in 3rd, 5th, 6th so I always lean towards them for an army. I however really do like the Firestorm and Shadow Masters Detachments that were spoiled.

I seen rumours on DW getting updated this spring but I don't really want to invest in buying the current models with them being smaller scale than the standard Termies we have now.

If I go with Firestorm I'll probably assemble the Infernus Squad too.

Current stuff I have is:
Leviathan Captain in TDA
Leviathan Libby in TDA
Leviathan Termies x5 /w AsC
1 box of Termies on route with the new codex pre-order.

Random other models I have for marines:
Dante NiB
Mephiston NiB
BA Dread(Furioso, DC or Libby) can be any 1 of those. NiB
Judicar NoS
Librarian in Phobos Armor NoS

Leviathan Box extra Marine models: All NiB
Apothecary Biologis
LT in Phobos Armor
Sterngaurd Veteran Squad
Infernus Squad(10man)
Ballistus Dreadnought

BrianDavion wrote:
since 8th edition: "GW should just make primaris marines, and stop diffrentiating em!"
*GW starts doing that*

"WAIT GW HOW DARE YOU REMOVE STUFF!"


ahh never change dakka


Scouts are scouts, the primaris keyword is no longer a thing

Scouts are Scouts . . . with a bunch of options removed.

Also, I love how Intercessor Sergeants can take Thunder Hammers . . . but Terminator Captains can't?

GW is dumb.

But jump captains can... but assault sergeants can't.

Chaosistency!

One thing that annoyed me about the Goonhammer review, where they said that the Primaris Captain had been rolled into the Captain entry.

No, the Captain entry was deleted, and they just removed 'Primaris' from the Primaris Captain entry...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But jump captains can... but assault sergeants can't.

Chaosistency!

One thing that annoyed me about the Goonhammer review, where they said that the Primaris Captain had been rolled into the Captain entry.

No, the Captain entry was deleted, and they just removed 'Primaris' from the Primaris Captain entry...

The Primaris characters that were merged with their Firstborn counterparts didn't just get renamed, they gained the ability to lead relevant Firstborn squads (Tactical and in some case Devastator squads), allowing you to use your old models for these characters (though some of the Firstborn wargear options are no longer supported).

 Kingsley wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But jump captains can... but assault sergeants can't.

Chaosistency!

One thing that annoyed me about the Goonhammer review, where they said that the Primaris Captain had been rolled into the Captain entry.

No, the Captain entry was deleted, and they just removed 'Primaris' from the Primaris Captain entry...

The Primaris characters that were merged with their Firstborn counterparts didn't just get renamed, they gained the ability to lead relevant Firstborn squads (Tactical and in some case Devastator squads), allowing you to use your old models for these characters (though some of the Firstborn wargear options are no longer supported).

It’s that last bit that irritates some of us.

Opening up the armory and removing the primaris/firstborn distinction would have been ideal. We got part of it. Missed opportunity.

Sadly, opening the armory was never realistically going to happen, not with GW's "models and units only get what comes in their box" policy. It's dumb as hell, but that's where we are at.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sadly, opening the armory was never realistically going to happen, not with GW's "models and units only get what comes in their box" policy. It's dumb as hell, but that's where we are at.

I know.

Irritated with it, hoped they would change, but working with what we got.

 Kingsley wrote:
The Primaris characters that were merged with their Firstborn counterparts didn't just get renamed, they gained the ability to lead relevant Firstborn squads (Tactical and in some case Devastator squads), allowing you to use your old models for these characters (though some of the Firstborn wargear options are no longer supported).

They weren't merged with anything. The First Born Characters were deleted, and the Primaris Characters had their names changed.

They can lead Tactical Squads because otherwise nothing would be able to lead Tactical Squads.

How were they "deleted"? You just use your model with the combined datasheet, which now represents both?

In the past, if I wanted to use my Firstborn Librarian or Lieutenant, there was a separate datasheet from that for my Primaris Librarian or Primaris Lieutenant. Now I just use the combined datasheet for either model, and it can join either Firstborn or Primaris as I see fit.

There are some cases where wargear doesn't cleanly map over -- for instance, I had a Firstborn Librarian that I'd converted with a storm bolter, and I believe that's not an option anymore. But I can still use the model with the "Librarian" datasheet, and the idea that it's been "deleted" doesn't seem right.

I see this as relevantly quite different from units that were actually removed from the Codex, like the Thunderfire Cannon or Scout Bikes -- Firstborn Captains, Lieutenants, Librarians, etc. still have a usable datasheet!

If I have a model modelled with clear weapons and I can't use those it's deleted I can't run it without remodeling

If I have a sculpt I can't play with because it's a slightly different dimension or on a different base it's deleted

The fact you can use it in a casual setting is irrelevant

There was no design space for things like primaris scouts and assault intercessors with jump packs so they got rid of the old units like assault marines and scouts to force players to buy new models to replace their old deleted ones.

Removing the distinction would have been here's the captain/librarian datasheet and all options from before on the one sheet use whatever model you like

Or here's the new scout models with a datasheet covering all previous loadouts

People are losing hobby time and units to be forced to buy the same unit again to run the same thing and it feels like a big lose to anyone with an old army

U02dah4 wrote:
If I have a model modelled with clear weapons and I can't use those it's deleted I can't run it without remodeling

If I have a sculpt I can't play with because it's a slightly different dimension or on a different base it's deleted

The fact you can use it in a casual setting is irrelevant

There was no design space for things like primaris scouts and assault intercessors with jump packs so they got rid of the old units like assault marines and scouts to force players to buy new models to replace their old deleted ones.

Removing the distinction would have been here's the captain/librarian datasheet and all options from before on the one sheet use whatever model you like

Or here's the new scout models with a datasheet covering all previous loadouts

People are losing hobby time and units to be forced to buy the same unit again to run the same thing and it feels like a big lose to anyone with an old army

What utter nonsense is this?

You need to find better playing partners if you feel like you're forced into this particular corner, because this is all just made up.

No its pretty ubiquitous tourney standard

U02dah4 wrote:
If I have a model modelled with clear weapons and I can't use those it's deleted I can't run it without remodeling

If I have a sculpt I can't play with because it's a slightly different dimension or on a different base it's deleted

The fact you can use it in a casual setting is irrelevant

There was no design space for things like primaris scouts and assault intercessors with jump packs so they got rid of the old units like assault marines and scouts to force players to buy new models to replace their old deleted ones.

Removing the distinction would have been here's the captain/librarian datasheet and all options from before on the one sheet use whatever model you like

Or here's the new scout models with a datasheet covering all previous loadouts

People are losing hobby time and units to be forced to buy the same unit again to run the same thing and it feels like a big lose to anyone with an old army

Sculpts with slightly different dimensions or bases are fine. If you don't want to buy new models, use your old Assault Marines as Assault Intercessors with jump packs, or for that matter as Vanguard Veterans! Use old Scout models if you want, the entry doesn't say "Primaris Scouts" it says "Scouts". GW has even written about how you can do this on their website:

Many departing units have a contemporary analogue that you can use instead – so the storied Bike Squad that has served you and the Emperor for 20 years could stay in your army, using the rules for Outriders.

In other cases, there’s data sheets that fit the bill for multiple units. So while Assault Squads are going away, you can still use the rules for Vanguard Veterans to play with them.

Personally I think there's a good chance that I'll be running my old Techmarine with servo-harness model for a while, maybe I'll get the new model and maybe not. Yeah, his wargear is wrong, but he's still a Techmarine and that's obvious from the model. I suppose the bigger base would be advantageous, but it's marginal and I can always convert him onto a new base if I really care -- which I might want to do anyway for the aesthetics.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sadly, opening the armory was never realistically going to happen, not with GW's "models and units only get what comes in their box" policy. It's dumb as hell, but that's where we are at.

Eh, as expensive as the game is, the number of times the optimal loadout for things demanded 2-3 copies of a kit just to make one unit has always been a factor that's kept me from playing regularly. I vastly prefer more realistic limitations on wargear. I've always hoped the game would just make power weapons a thing and let people decide if that's a sword or axe or claw or whatever.

Now the issue I DO have with the current direction is just that a lot of this stuff is lacking in options. Lets get some weird stuff, particularly on those expensive Captain sprues. I don't need every option to have unique stats, but give me some cool options.

Currently tinkering with a list based on the previewed Codex and current points (who knows if those will change).

Firestorm Assault Force

Captain Sicarius 85
Uriel Ventris 75
Lieutenant w/ Combi-Weapon 70
Gravis Captain w/ Adamantine Mantle 100
Biologis w/ Forged in Battle 70

2x (5) Heavy Intercessors 210
(6) Flamestorm Aggressors 200
2x (6) Bladeguard Veterans 360
2x Drop Pod 140
(6) Eradicators 190
(5) Infiltrators w/ Helix 100
2x (3) Inceptors w/ Assault Bolters 230
(10) Infernus Squad 170

[2000]

Meant to close the gap and skew full infantry - reducing enemy anti-tank effectiveness (unless they really want to blow up a drop pod!). Sicarius pairs with a BGV squad and Scouts up to the midfield. Uriel goes with BGV in a Drop Pod, giving another vector for a tough melee unit. Gravis Captain and Biologis create an Aggressor deathstar that Deep Strikes in via Uriel Ventris. Eradicators go into Strategic Reserves to ideally come in where best needed. Inceptors with Deep Strike give the army quite a lot of deployment shenanigans, so these can turn up where some firepower is needed. Infiltrators do their area denial thing. Changes to the Lieutenant w/ CW, provided they stick, seems solid. He can go do stuff while making sure anything that gets near the chosen objective is subject to nastier firepower than usual. Infernus Squad is in a Pod and comes down to deliver Immolation Protocols. Seems like a mandatory option! Also, with the Gravis Captain, I can use that strategy on the Aggressor's shooting too and for free, since its a Battle Tactic. Really nasty stuff there. Crucible of Battle will also get spread around to the BGV squads, since the +1 to wound is for fighting as well. Uriel also lets you use it even if it has already been used, though he doesn't discount it (sadly), which means both BGV squads could have it in a turn.

I know this list skips out on the vehicle Strategem perks, but those just didn't seem as useful to me. I could, in theory, try to shoehorn a Redeemer into the list but I think it just takes away from the skew advantage for a gimmick I am not sure is worthwhile generally (though I admit having a way to move my deathstar around faster is nice; I can't imagine the lone Redeemer living long). Am I focusing too much on silly stuff or does this look actually viable?

U02dah4 wrote:
No its pretty ubiquitous tourney standard

Absolute hogwash.

GW even tells you to convert or use old models as stand-ins for removed units. You're not being honest if you're saying that all tournaments will disallow this.

You aren't being honest here. You've made this nonsense up, and I think it's worth calling you out on it. Shame on you.

WTC which most Scottish Majors follow along with the WTC itself have a base size faq etc

And state in their faq "in brief, models
must be 100% WYSIWYG, an appropriate size, and easily identifiable as the original model"

https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/

Or UKTC (Who run most of the UK super Majors like LGT)

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1vlsPKR8oTVAlvkaYi0clKJ30LOqn3mG7psT6LTHIGT0/mobilebasic

"CONVERSIONS, PROXIES/PRINTED MODELS AND VINTAGE MODELS
All conversions and proxies should bear a logical resemblance to the original model and should be of comparable dimensions to the latest Games Workshop model."

And "BASE SIZES
All models must be on the correct base size."

For all GW say you can use them as proxy in practice you can't its effectively modeling for advantage

So yes please explain to me how old scouts have the same base and dimension as new scouts or better yet bikers are the same as outriders - their not even close

I can't speak to American events but you attend any of the ones I do and your getting a judge call on your illegal models

And yes shame on me for citing facts you dont want to hear and warning you in advance

U02dah4 wrote:
WTC which most Scottish Majors follow along with the WTC itself have a base size faq etc

And state in their faq "in brief, models
must be 100% WYSIWYG, an appropriate size, and easily identifiable as the original model"

https://worldteamchampionship.com/wtc-rules/

Or UKTC (Who run most of the UK super Majors like LGT)

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1vlsPKR8oTVAlvkaYi0clKJ30LOqn3mG7psT6LTHIGT0/mobilebasic

"CONVERSIONS, PROXIES/PRINTED MODELS AND VINTAGE MODELS
All conversions and proxies should bear a logical resemblance to the original model and should be of comparable dimensions to the latest Games Workshop model."

And "BASE SIZES
All models must be on the correct base size."

For all GW say you can use them as proxy in practice you can't its effectively modeling for advantage

So yes please explain to me how old scouts have the same base and dimension as new scouts or better yet bikers are the same as outriders - their not even close

I can't speak to American events but you attend any of the ones I do and your getting a judge call on your illegal models

And yes shame on me for citing facts you dont want to hear and warning you in advance

Eh. This is a problem of your own choosing. If you choose to play in the tourney environment, you gotta tolerate whatever house rules each one comes up with. They could just as easily say that all your models must be painted blue....

Meanwhile, out here in casual land, the only people that're going to be crying foul when 1st born bikers are now used as Outriders & old scouts become Primaris scouts, etc? Are those people you shouldn't play with anyways.

U02dah4 wrote:

"CONVERSIONS, PROXIES/PRINTED MODELS AND VINTAGE MODELS
All conversions and proxies should bear a logical resemblance to the original model and should be of comparable dimensions to the latest Games Workshop model."

And "BASE SIZES
All models must be on the correct base size."

For all GW say you can use them as proxy in practice you can't its effectively modeling for advantage

So yes please explain to me how old scouts have the same base and dimension as new scouts or better yet bikers are the same as outriders - their not even close

I can't speak to American events but you attend any of the ones I do and your getting a judge call on your illegal models

And yes shame on me for citing facts you dont want to hear and warning you in advance

Technically, those rules only say that conversions and proxies have to be of comparable dimensions to the latest Games Workshop model. Old Scouts aren't conversions or proxies, they're official Games Workshop models. You might have to rebase them but they aren't conversions or proxies, they're just old models, so it doesn't seem to me that the "comparable dimensions" thing would apply. (I could of course be wrong, I don't attend these tournaments... seems weird that a tournament would ban something GW has explicitly encouraged players to do, though?)

In fact, looking up the document I see there's a "vintage model" policy at the end of this section that you didn't quote, here it is...

Vintage models are allowed and are treated as proxies. However, you must use the current model’s dimensions for game play decisions and it must be on the correct base size (this is determined by which models and bases come in the box if bought directly from GW at the time list submission closes). The same applies to base sizes more generally.

So you can use old models fine as long as you have them on the right bases, you just might have to pretend your Scouts are taller or whatever when determining line of sight.