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 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Oh, then just bring back Leman Russ, signal the end times, and poof 11th Edition and all sorts of new stuff in the new continuity.

We can start at any time in the timeline (post heresy of course) and create tons of new stories.

You don't need to shoehorn in any sexes, because everything will be brand new.

Then in a few years: Warhammer 40K : The Olde Galaxy

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't think there was a whole lot of investment in Stormcast at the time, and I imagine much of the playerbase was still more concerned with the detonation of the previous world/lore etc.

Oh, then just bring back Leman Russ, signal the end times, and poof 11th Edition and all sorts of new stuff in the new continuity.

We can start at any time in the timeline (post heresy of course) and create tons of new stories.

You don't need to shoehorn in any sexes, because everything will be brand new.


EDIT: Now to find some Skaven to blow up the universe.

Hard pass.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
EDIT: Now to find some Skaven to blow up the universe.

Let's give credit where credit is due. Archaon is responsible for ending the Old World, with a massive last-minute assist from Mannfred von Carstein. The Skaven merely shot down a moon.

Tygre wrote:
On Space Marine faces they do supposed to have gigantism to some degree. Which thickens facial features. Thick jaws and brows; bigger noses etc.

It is definitely something missing from all the third party sculpts. Regular 'human' heads - escher with more undercuts.

Not that I'm trying to kick the hornets' nest, but we've all had a couple of days to cool down.

And after all this, I have to wonder: does anyone actually have a reason not to include female Marines beyond, "...but the lore!"?

Because, let's be honest - the lore is sufficiently malleable that GW could work it in if they wanted to.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Not that I'm trying to kick the hornets' nest, but we've all had a couple of days to cool down.

And after all this, I have to wonder: does anyone actually have a reason not to include female Marines beyond, "...but the lore!"?

Because, let's be honest - the lore is sufficiently malleable that GW could work it in if they wanted to.

The lore is a sufficient reason.

GW had that opportunity with Primaris Marines and decided not to do it.

There really is no reason for FSM's to exist.

That said, put any heads you want on your models that you paid. The stats would likely be the same if FSM's were a thing so you don't need GW to produce them to make your own.

 warhead01 wrote:
There really is no reason for FSM's to exist.

I disagree. I think they would be neat.

If you want an in-lore reason why? It doubles the potential pool of recruits for space marines, something that the Imperium would literally genocide a planet or 3 to achieve

For me?

The current background is justification only that FSM don’t currently exist.

But if it was to change, I’d hope we see it addressed in the background, rather than “nope, we’ve decided it’s always been that way now”

::Looks around the room for angry hornets or Mods with glowing eyes::

Honestly, I welcome some new models. On the plus side, if it brings in some new players--all the better.

It doesn't feel like an important part of the lore to me, it's not as relevant as the banning that led to the formation of the Sisters Of Battle for instance. I don't think there was ever any decree in lore, or from GW, that space marines must all be manly men. The lore justification of it being a limitation of the process could be very easily changed - as I've mentioned previously, they have relatively recently changed this already with the introduction of the Primaris marines. There could just be a crisis in space marines recruitment that means they need to look further afield; or some crucial female character (not sure who? Not aware of many) could be grievously wounded and put through the Primaris process as a last-ditch attempt to save her, and what do you know? It works...

What I would say though is that it shouldn't be enforced. Space marine kits should come with enough heads to allow you to field all boys / all girls / all helmets, whichever way you roll.

::eyes the room full of pitchforks and lit torches::

Hear me out. I think I have a nifty way of solving this (the Lore) issue that shows off the stagnation that is the Imperium.

Introduce Female Chaos Space Marines first. And you can do what GW is best at... obfuscation.

DON'T explain it. It just is, put conflicting rumors and snippets of Inquisitorial missives, make it convoluted, add all the Fabius Bile, maybe its this, maybe its that... but don't explain it.

Much like the missing Legions, some mysteries are just fun, and this will keep people guessing for a long time.

You're over thinking it.

GW have proved numerous times over the years that as much as possible grumble about the background being changed, they'll but new models of they're cool.

So all they actually need to do to introduce female marines is release cool models for them. However they choose to work it into the background is largely irrelevant... It's going to get complaints from those who dislike change regardless of how they do it. And then people will buy the cool models, they'll become a standard part of the game, and everyone will move on.

To move this conversation from the same circular arguing - the same arguments have been made and then apparently ignored to be used again (ie the lore is not set in stone and GW changes it whenever so it is NOT a valid argument against FSM).

What thematic marine units would you think could be cool specifically BECAUSE they are identified as female?

ie , beyond the bare minimum 'girls are allowed', what about 'girls elevate the concept'?

ie Space Wolf Valkyrie units, jump pack spear wielding orbital insertion crazies.

The Ultramarine Minervan guard, strategic deployment specialists.

and so on.

I could see the warrior lodges being brotherhoods, but then you have sisterhoods of cool unit ideas as well.


So, personally I'm tired of the same old arguments which boil down to 'i don't like it, and my opinion is what GW should act on, despite how GW treats their own lore (female custodes, retconns galore)' and I'd rather see joyous creativity from people on how women would be represented in marine chapters beyond the bare minimum head swap.

I’m not sure I’d plump for all female Chapters at least at first. Any new Chapter involves senior figures imported from parent Chapters, with “original aspirants” ascending the ranks over decades, as positions uh, “become available”. So to go straight to all-female Chapters wouldn’t work for me, and risks an incel’s fevered imaginations where the women are, at first, necessarily commanded by the men. Let’s just not go there, yeah?

Rather I’d prefer to see Cawl develop the conversion process beyond the Y Chromosome limitation.

That discovery could be based on The Emperor’s original research notes (see earlier about the Astartes project being a salvage bodge job, and never the intended final product)

From there? I don’t think I’d want the models or units to be gendered. I’d want them to be largely indistinguishable in physique, on account of all the extras that go into making any human into an Astartes.

So, I’d be happier with somewhat more feminine unhelmeted noggins being the only distinguishing feature, and the recruits being treated no differently.

I mean, in the world of Dirty Pillows, you need to have colossal norks to require Power Armour to reflect the Devil’s Dumplings (if such a physical feature even developed/survived the conversion process. Because staggering amounts of testosterone and who knows what else).

Let it serve as a reminder that in order to become one of Humanity’s mythical saviours, one must necessarily sacrifice one’s own very humanity.

the point wasn't the gender segregate, but to have martial traditions within the chapters specific to sister/brotherhoods.

So you have 100% integrated chapters, AND separate units with their own martial traditions. There are thematic concepts that are elevated by that, without denying women/men entirely from the army.

Nah, I don’t think I’d like that.

We already have fairly set progression from recruitment, through the Scout, Reserve and Battle Companies, with those who survive long enough eventually becoming Veterans.

And along that journey, a given Marine might serve in any number of squads and squad types.

Keep them all equal grist for the uncaring mill.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah, I don’t think I’d like that.

We already have fairly set progression from recruitment, through the Scout, Reserve and Battle Companies, with those who survive long enough eventually becoming Veterans.

And along that journey, a given Marine might serve in any number of squads and squad types.

Keep them all equal grist for the uncaring mill.

I mean that, like so much of GW lore we've just spent the whole thread saying is malleable, is also not true.

GW invented the morkai hunters for space wolves, the tyranid war veterans for the ultramarines. The risen. The sanguinary guard. Every primaris unit that looks nothing like the dev, tac, ass, progression we used to have.


But if it's too difficult to accept, then just make them also integrated but specifically female coded background. in the same way men join the howling banshees despite the specifically female aspect. Valkyrie orbital insertion and minervan strategic guard are cool ideas regardless.

The aesthetic options I see are all based on marine’s most precious commodity: bling. FSM would allow for different robe cuts, traditionally feminine hats, crowns or “hairstyle” adornments, as well as alternative death masks and sculpted cuirasses for Blood Angels.

Still not for me I’m afraid.

The units listed are Chapter specific Veteran units, and I see no reason why a a hypothetical female veteran wouldn’t just be accepted into those existing units, or necessarily give rise to new ones.

Basically? My preference is that once you’re a Marine? You’re a Marine. And your progression through the ranks and units is based on merit and experience, regardless of your human origin. That the Chapter and its traditions don’t really care what is or isn’t in your power armour undies, exactly which world or tribe or community you were initially recruited from.

You’re part of the Chapter now, with the same expectations and responsibilities all such members of the “lucky” few have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cross posted with Bobtheinqusitor, for clarity.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah, I don’t think I’d like that.

We already have fairly set progression from recruitment, through the Scout, Reserve and Battle Companies, with those who survive long enough eventually becoming Veterans.

And along that journey, a given Marine might serve in any number of squads and squad types.

Keep them all equal grist for the uncaring mill.

I mean that, like so much of GW lore we've just spent the whole thread saying is malleable, is also not true.

GW invented the morkai hunters for space wolves, the tyranid war veterans for the ultramarines. The risen. The sanguinary guard. Every primaris unit that looks nothing like the dev, tac, ass, progression we used to have.


But if it's too difficult to accept, then just make them also integrated but specifically female coded background. in the same way men join the howling banshees despite the specifically female aspect. Valkyrie orbital insertion and minervan strategic guard are cool ideas regardless.

I'm not firmly opposed to the idea of gender-specific Marine units, but the point is to strive for gender equality in the poster faction of the setting. There are very few - in any, truly - gender-specific units in other mixed-gender factions; I don't see the Adeptus Astartes giving enough of a crap to make an all-girls squad.

 Hellebore wrote:
To move this conversation from the same circular arguing - the same arguments have been made and then apparently ignored to be used again (ie the lore is not set in stone and GW changes it whenever so it is NOT a valid argument against FSM).

Lore arguments are absolutely valid. Now, absolutely, history has shown that GW doesn't always respect it's own lore, and can treat it poorly, sure. But that doesn't mean it can't be contested. It doesn't matter to some, but it matters to others.

Besides, Hellebore, didn't you recently start a thread recently bemoaning lore changes to a certain Leman Russ?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/814711.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah, I don’t think I’d like that.

We already have fairly set progression from recruitment, through the Scout, Reserve and Battle Companies, with those who survive long enough eventually becoming Veterans.

And along that journey, a given Marine might serve in any number of squads and squad types.

Keep them all equal grist for the uncaring mill.

I mean that, like so much of GW lore we've just spent the whole thread saying is malleable, is also not true.

GW invented the morkai hunters for space wolves, the tyranid war veterans for the ultramarines. The risen. The sanguinary guard. Every primaris unit that looks nothing like the dev, tac, ass, progression we used to have.


But if it's too difficult to accept, then just make them also integrated but specifically female coded background. in the same way men join the howling banshees despite the specifically female aspect. Valkyrie orbital insertion and minervan strategic guard are cool ideas regardless.

I'm not firmly opposed to the idea of gender-specific Marine units, but the point is to strive for gender equality in the poster faction of the setting. There are very few - in any, truly - gender-specific units in other mixed-gender factions; I don't see the Adeptus Astartes giving enough of a crap to make an all-girls squad.

Yeah I would think making gender specific units would be rather beside the point.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So, I’d be happier with somewhat more feminine unhelmeted noggins being the only distinguishing feature, and the recruits being treated no differently.

I mean, in the world of Dirty Pillows, you need to have colossal norks to require Power Armour to reflect the Devil’s Dumplings (if such a physical feature even developed/survived the conversion process. Because staggering amounts of testosterone and who knows what else).

Let it serve as a reminder that in order to become one of Humanity’s mythical saviours, one must necessarily sacrifice one’s own very humanity.

I agree, I’m not sure they’d even develop them tbh. Aspirants are pre-pubescent (so none prior) and then are exposed to a ton of drugs (in loads of testosterone) that make them grow in pretty templated ways

Secondary characteristics probably not going to develop.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

I'm not firmly opposed to the idea of gender-specific Marine units, but the point is to strive for gender equality in the poster faction of the setting. There are very few - in any, truly - gender-specific units in other mixed-gender factions; I don't see the Adeptus Astartes giving enough of a crap to make an all-girls squad.

While marines are unlikely to care in the slightest what is in each others' pants, it's worth remembering that many chapters are very big on maintaining the traditions of their homeworlds. So it wouldn't be at all inconceivable for woman-only warrior groups to emerge in marine chapters where those chapters have a history of such things from before they became marines.

That said, I do agree that it would somewhat undermine the whole idea of introducing women to the marines to then immediately go segregating them into their own formations. I could see it working better to have those warrior traditions carry across, but in a gender-neutral fashion. So, say, Space Wolf Valkeries, based on the tradition of warrior women units, but the marine version would allow any suitable warrior.

Marines are already described as having a slightly unsettling visage. Their facial features oddly exaggerated, not quite in scale with their now massive physiques. This is in contrast to the Primarchs, who are described as all being in-scale.

However, not ugly or necessarily unattractive as such. Just…noticeably Not Human. The sort of unusual it takes you some time to really put your finger on.

Uncanny Valley is the vibe Space Marines give off.

I agree with everyone who said that they wouldn't want there to be specific "female marine units" or even female marine appearance apart different heads.

That being said, whilst I would strongly prefer the norm to be full integration, as well as the gender being basically a non-issue, I would not vehemently oppose some specific chapters having different approaches.

Chapters' suspicion of Primaris is one thing. They're replacements for the Old Guard, who have kept the Imperium ticking for over ten thousand years.

Chapters being suspicious or ostracising female recruits is just sexism.

I’ll also come on the side of not segregating marines by gender. If there’s a Valkyrie unit, let it be composed of male and female space marines. They should base these units in their inspirations’ martial spirit and combat tradition only, with old gender norms and other trivia being left behind as meaningless.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
To move this conversation from the same circular arguing - the same arguments have been made and then apparently ignored to be used again (ie the lore is not set in stone and GW changes it whenever so it is NOT a valid argument against FSM).

Lore arguments are absolutely valid. Now, absolutely, history has shown that GW doesn't always respect it's own lore, and can treat it poorly, sure. But that doesn't mean it can't be contested. It doesn't matter to some, but it matters to others.

Besides, Hellebore, didn't you recently start a thread recently bemoaning lore changes to a certain Leman Russ?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/814711.page

I did indeed. Not a fan of the new version at all and wished they hadn't done it, specifically because he'd already had more detail than other primarchs to work with. Many seemed to think that the current image of Russ was the only image though and it was worth making clear that he wasn't always so flanderised.

And while I've got no power to affect the outcome of GW's lore decisions, it's not a problem to express issues with them. However, The change to a character's personality, is not equivalent to an abstract gender segregation and there aren't any morally objectionable arguments to make in defence of Leman Russ' old personality, while far more of the arguments against FSM have been pretty gross (across the community, not specifically in this thread) which makes the whole position pretty questionable. If I was trying to get old LR reinstated and tried to argue that him being a proud rapist, or lauded as a hero for genociding a human planet that was a thinly veiled caricature of arabs/jews or any other minority, then yeah there'd definitely be some squinting askance at that position and how trying to keep that image of him was so important to me...

I have no problem separating two positions as not morally equivalent - personality change and sex segregation, while also recognising that my issues with the current LR are GW's decision and I can't affect the outcome.

My preference for old LR doesn't tell half the population that the most important part of 40k that is used to introduce new players to the world explicitly bans their representation, nor does it brow beat them with it continuously by trying to use fictional justifications to maintain that ban and that somehow the happiness of some male players is tied into their explicit banning from that faction. Should they be allowed to represent their gender in that faction, then they will be causing untold suffering amongst others around them.

People are welcome to hold 'no girls allowed' positions, but they should expect that others may not particularly respect that position. I don't care if no one respects my position that old LR is better than new LR, because it has no affect on me at all. And yet people are very sensitive about the no girls allowed position being respected in a way that they don't feel bad about holding it - please let me enjoy this intrinsically sexist fiction, but don't tell me its sexist or it will ruin it for me - i need the sexism to gain enjoyment from it, but also don't like sexism at all.

Depends how you play that though.

A Chapter could be highly conservative, due to centuries if not millennia of Largely Being Left Alone To Their Traditions, with genuinely very minor oversight or accountability.

Some initial resistance to New therefore does make sense. After all, who is this bionic gimboid who just turned up with a bunch of new guys that are apparently part of our Chapter now?

What’s that? A Primarch ordered it? That may as well be, but he’s not our Primarch, is he?

So like Primaris, any initial objection can be framed as them just not being used to taking orders, and being highly suspicious of an outsider fiddling with things, rather than any “but wimmins are weedy and smelly and will want us to decorate the Chapter Keep every six months” type stuff, to take it to an illogical extreme.