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Wrath wrote:

Dribble Joy wrote:

Tapeworm711 wrote:As a read "Patch Up" It doesn't seem to restrict the models to who's turn it is. It simply states "If a unit contains more than one wounded model,
it must carry out a Patch Up action."

Not "Your Models" or the currently player. I believe it happens to EVERYONES model, on EVERY consolidation phase.

Unless otherwise stated, you cannot perform an action in your opponent's turn.
Could be wrong though and I can see Patch Up occurring to all units anyway in any finalised rules.

Patch-up is Compulsory so it happens to everyone that it can apply to. Even if it is not your turn unless it says otherwise.

Regroup is also Compulsory, so by the same logic I would be able to perform it in my opponent's Consolidation phase.

Unless otherwise stated you cannot perform any action in your opponent's turn. I can't see anywhere where Patch Up is made an exception.

Wild prediction about Eldar

Dire Avengers will be able to get Overwatch, really fits their idea.
Swooping Hawks will be flyer hunters get anti aircraft weapons (st3 Haywire?) and keep their Haywire grenades and interception.
Dark Reapers will get their Missile launchers back.
All units will become fleet.
I expect all aspects to become super good at their one thing.

There was a scribd link a while back

alarmingrick wrote:

Jihadnik wrote:Sorry to be the guy who comes into the conversation several months after everyone else, but I really want to check these rules out and the initial link doesn't work for me. Anyone got a better one they could recommend?

Thanks dakka!

That's weird? Could it be an Aussie thing?(seriously, no shot intended!)
I just tried it and it worked for me?

Hmm, not sure, maybe...It just wouldn't load up correctly for me!

Choice of Land Raider variant... VALIDATED.

"If there is
no range specified in the [template] weapon’s profile, it has
a range of 3”

No one's gonna trash talk you now, redeemer... I was right all along!

Just going to throw this out there once again, if anyone wants to take a crack at designing some of those missing diagrams, I'd love to add them to the pdf.

junk wrote:Just going to throw this out there once again, if anyone wants to take a crack at designing some of those missing diagrams, I'd love to add them to the pdf.

Why would anyone do that? How could anyone know what they would look like?

Most of the charts are explained in the text. They are just a visual tool for others to more easily understand the concepts.

ph34r wrote:

junk wrote:Just going to throw this out there once again, if anyone wants to take a crack at designing some of those missing diagrams, I'd love to add them to the pdf.

Why would anyone do that? How could anyone know what they would look like?

It isn't too tricky for most of 'em since examples are, by definition, explained in the rules somewhere. They simply serve to illustrate concepts discussed in the text in a visual way (helps some people learn 'em better). I had half a mind to add in diagrams, but I am no graphic designer so it is above me. Farthest I have gotten is rudimentary bookmarks and adding in some art assets (because I like my rules pretty damn it!). It would be awesome if the community got together and patched this doc up to make a new set of core rules.

With these rules the Eldar's primary troop choices will be jetbikes, 20 strong guardian squads and wraithguard. Guardians may not be great but they can come in large units which works for the new objective points scoring.

Actually, storm guardians with flamers and warlock might suprise a few people.

focusedfire wrote:With these rules the Eldar's primary troop choices will be jetbikes, 20 strong guardian squads and wraithguard. Guardians may not be great but they can come in large units which works for the new objective points scoring.

Actually, storm guardians with flamers and warlock might suprise a few people.

I think storm guardians will be surprisingly capable in this edition with the changes to flamers and fleet.

Dribble Joy wrote:
Regroup is also Compulsory, so by the same logic I would be able to perform it in my opponent's Consolidation phase.

Unless otherwise stated you cannot perform any action in your opponent's turn. I can't see anywhere where Patch Up is made an exception.

Right it is Compulsory, and it defines when it must happen.

Regroup:
"A character, usually the squad leader, in a broken
unit can attempt to regroup it by taking a Morale
Check (regroup) or Regroup test in his own
Consolidation phase if there are no enemies
within 12" of the unit." P. 54

Patch-up does not have this condition, therefore you must do it in every Consolation phase.

ShumaGorath wrote:
The problem is that assaults are too fast and effective and that in two editions they've taken assaults from being turn four to three to two without actually legitimately upping the firepower or resilience of ranged foot units in most books. Go play a tyranid swarm army with a non mech gunline now when they're slow. See how well that works out. Now take a turn away from that and give them +1 ballistic skill.

Shooting is actually a lot deadlier now. 5+ coversaves combined with it often being easier to hit stuff than before makes shooting even more deadly than now. Pinning is also awesome with these rules, which should help shooty armies such as tau, eldar and IG. Without assault getting a boost, 6th ed would be a total shooting gallery

Seems GW is making the game and units more balanced by making sure EVERYTHING is killier

It is sad that infantry heavy weapons are useless with these rules. I do hope they find a way to make them playable in the final version.

Illumini wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
The problem is that assaults are too fast and effective and that in two editions they've taken assaults from being turn four to three to two without actually legitimately upping the firepower or resilience of ranged foot units in most books. Go play a tyranid swarm army with a non mech gunline now when they're slow. See how well that works out. Now take a turn away from that and give them +1 ballistic skill.

Shooting is actually a lot deadlier now. 5+ coversaves combined with it often being easier to hit stuff than before makes shooting even more deadly than now. Pinning is also awesome with these rules, which should help shooty armies such as tau, eldar and IG. Without assault getting a boost, 6th ed would be a total shooting gallery

Seems GW is making the game and units more balanced by making sure EVERYTHING is killier

It is sad that infantry heavy weapons are useless with these rules. I do hope they find a way to make them playable in the final version.

Im not sure if you meant heavy weapon teams as well but i hope so because i just finished modelling a gorgeous group of gunners.... feth it, il use em anyway!

I beleive that the heavy weapon teams problem can be mitigated, somewhat, by the strategic assets that you bid for or by loading them into a transport.

Bold or Stupid wrote:Dire Avengers will get their Missile launchers back.

I'm not sure which Eldar codexes you've been reading, but I don't recall Dire Avengers ever having access to missile launchers. Dark reapes had them in 2nd edition (and possibly in the list in the 3rd edition rulebook), but I'm fairly sure they've had Reaper Launchers since the 3rd Ed Codex: Eldar came out.

Dysartes wrote:

Bold or Stupid wrote:Dire Avengers will get their Missile launchers back.

I'm not sure which Eldar codexes you've been reading, but I don't recall Dire Avengers ever having access to missile launchers. Dark reapes had them in 2nd edition (and possibly in the list in the 3rd edition rulebook), but I'm fairly sure they've had Reaper Launchers since the 3rd Ed Codex: Eldar came out.

That's who I meant. It was late....

Mandor wrote:

Shame I fully bookmarked the PDF file the other day. Took me about two hours, but is so worth it!

Do bookmarks get added to the pdf file itself? If so would any of the kind gentlemen who has bookmarked the file be willing to perhaps share with those of us with a more constrained schedule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

focusedfire wrote:With these rules the Eldar's primary troop choices will be jetbikes, 20 strong guardian squads and wraithguard. Guardians may not be great but they can come in large units which works for the new objective points scoring.

Actually, storm guardians with flamers and warlock might suprise a few people.

I think storm guardians will be surprisingly capable in this edition with the changes to flamers and fleet.

No doubt, 2 WS 3 S 3 attacks vs the autohit flamer attacks is no contest at all. I'm curious whether Destructor can be used similarly being that it's a psychic power and not a weapon.

Angel_of_Rust wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Shame I fully bookmarked the PDF file the other day. Took me about two hours, but is so worth it!

Do bookmarks get added to the pdf file itself? If so would any of the kind gentlemen who has bookmarked the file be willing to perhaps share with those of us with a more constrained schedule?

Yes, I've added them to the PDF. Just PM me your email address and I'll send it to you.

focusedfire wrote:With these rules the Eldar's primary troop choices will be jetbikes, 20 strong guardian squads and wraithguard. Guardians may not be great but they can come in large units which works for the new objective points scoring.

Actually, storm guardians with flamers and warlock might suprise a few people.

How do you predict jetbikes as being so great? Don't their weapons still suck, and multi-targeting does not buy them much. They are still very expensive, so you don't have a lot of bodies on the table.

Illumini wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
The problem is that assaults are too fast and effective and that in two editions they've taken assaults from being turn four to three to two without actually legitimately upping the firepower or resilience of ranged foot units in most books. Go play a tyranid swarm army with a non mech gunline now when they're slow. See how well that works out. Now take a turn away from that and give them +1 ballistic skill.

Shooting is actually a lot deadlier now. 5+ coversaves combined with it often being easier to hit stuff than before makes shooting even more deadly than now. Pinning is also awesome with these rules, which should help shooty armies such as tau, eldar and IG. Without assault getting a boost, 6th ed would be a total shooting gallery

Seems GW is making the game and units more balanced by making sure EVERYTHING is killier

It is sad that infantry heavy weapons are useless with these rules. I do hope they find a way to make them playable in the final version.

My army still doesn't put down enough shots to meaningfully dent a fast assault horde in one turn. It's just not logistically capable of causing the 100+ wounds I would need to halve an ork or nid horde in the time it took to reach me. Especially not tyranids who will be in my deployment zone often times before I even get a second shooting phase. I certainly couldn't force down a blood angel army. Defensive firing is just about the only thing that will make the gunline style of army viable again in these rules, at least until new codexes come out which give gunline armies alternatives.

The new template/blast/rail weapons are your friend ; )

You easily kill 10+ horde models with one shot using those.

IPS wrote:The new template/blast/rail weapons are your friend ; )

You easily kill 10+ horde models with one shot using those.

I could do that before, but even longfang spam with 15 missiles isn't going to kill more then 30 nids/orks with one round of firing (assuming an average of 3 hits per missiles and an average of 3+ to wound with no cover which is unrealistic). Codex marines have a significantly harder time bringing that level of firepower and it wouldn't even be enough for space wolves (though they're considerably more capable in close combat so for them at least it's not as important).

30 wounds might seem like alot, but thats going to effectively be my entire army shooting at one squad. Maybe I'll kill it, maybe not. Unfortunately that's a fifth of my opponents army. I'm going to be shaking hands with the rest of it the next turn.

Really?

So let's take a fairly common assault. We have 8 Wyches (Haywire Grenades, with Hekatrix with Agoniser, +1 STR combat drugs, no FnP, no FC) for 126 pts assaulting a Tactical Marines Combat Squad (1 Missile Launcher) for 80 pts. For the point of this discussion, let's not take into account the full point costs of the units and their needed transports.

With your suggested rules, the Marines get to shoot their weapons at the assaulting Wyches.

4 Marines with Bolters kill (4* 2* 2/3* 2/3= 32/9) about 3.5 Wyches.
1 Marine with Missile Launcher kills (1* 2/3* 5/6= 10/18) about half a Wych.
So before assault even start, half the Wych squad is dead.

The Wyches then strike first in assault.

3 Wyches with CC weapons kill (9*1/2*1/2*1/3= 9/12) about 0.75 Marines.
1 Wych with Agoniser kills (4*1/2*1/2= 4/4) about 1 Marine.
So two Marines will probably die.

The Marines turn afterwards.

3 Marines kill (3* 1/2* 2/3* 1/2= 6/12) about half a Wych.
So one Wych is likely to die.

The result: in my turn, in which I have the initiative and assault with a more expensive, dedicated assault unit, I lose more models and more points than my opponent does. Ironically, I would be better off shooting him with my assault unit. This would result in (8* 2/3* 1/2* 1/3= 16/18) about 1 dead Marine with no casualties of my own.

Yeah, it sure does suck that small, transport dependent, light assault units which are typified by the whych (and of which the whych is probably one of the only actually used in games examples) get screwed with these rules. I agree.

You want to do the math with 30 hormugaunts instead? 10 jet pack BA assault marines with a priest? 30 orks with a claw nob? Hell, how about you use a beastmaster or some incubi?

I stated before, there is a dichotomy. Either gunlines become unviable or small scale light assault units and armies dependent on them become unviable.

Take your pick

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, it sure does suck that small, transport dependent, light assault units which are typified by the whych (and of which the whych is probably one of the only actually used in games examples) get screwed with these rules. I agree.

You want to do the math with 30 hormugaunts instead? 10 jet pack BA assault marines with a priest? 30 orks with a claw nob? Hell, how about you use a beastmaster or some incubi?

I stated before, there is a dichotomy. Either gunlines become unviable or small scale light assault units and armies dependent on them become unviable.

Take your pick

It "sucks"? Really, that's your response? So you want to fix some fairly broken units, that are outperformed by units from their own codex, by totally annihilating any light assault unit in the entire game? Thank god you are not in charge of game balance. And to be honest, I think you should never try to, ever.

Mandor wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, it sure does suck that small, transport dependent, light assault units which are typified by the whych (and of which the whych is probably one of the only actually used in games examples) get screwed with these rules. I agree.

You want to do the math with 30 hormugaunts instead? 10 jet pack BA assault marines with a priest? 30 orks with a claw nob? Hell, how about you use a beastmaster or some incubi?

I stated before, there is a dichotomy. Either gunlines become unviable or small scale light assault units and armies dependent on them become unviable.

Take your pick

It "sucks"? Really, that's your response? So you want to fix some fairly broken units, that are outperformed by units from their own codex, by totally annihilating any light assault unit in the entire game? Thank god you are not in charge of game balance. And to be honest, I think you should never try to, ever.

At this point I'm assuming you're too wrapped up in your bs or just don't care, but I've given you a clear and distinct choice. By upping the average movement speed of every unit in the game by 3 inches or more this edition has created a situation wherein line troops can and will be assaulted on average a turn earlier than they were in fifth. In fifth the average was turn 2 for fast units, three for everything else. In sixth it's looking like turn two for fast and three for everything else. This breaks the bank. Stand and shoot armies that survive through attrition or by disabling the enemy before they can reach the lines become totally unviable when 180 hormugaunts can assault them before they get a second shooting phase.

One hundred and eighty. Thats a 3 attack model for every point that that whych squad was. Can your wyches handle that gak? Can your dark eldar handle that gak?

So you know what? feth wyches. I don't care about wyches. Either a major archtype of army that has been in 40k since the beginning vanishes or a major archtype of unit that has been in 40k since the beginning vanishes. I chose the one that does't totally invalidate nearly every possible build of my army and you've chosen the one that doesn't invalidate one of the builds of yours.

I'm sorry, but are Wyches particularly good right now anyway? I've considered them a torrent unit: good at throwing wounds on things, but not the CC powerhouses they where in the 4th Ed. DE Codex.

EDIT: Ah, I see your point now. Yes, the new assault rules will shake things up, but to be fair, we have no idea if these rules are anywhere close to finalized.

And I realize no one likes being assaulted turn 2, with little they can do about it, but lets be honest here... gunlines wheren't great in 5th, and if your opponent is spending significant points on Hormagants and Raveners to get the "First turn charge LOLZ" then rest assured that the rest of the list will be lacking.

As far as the 180 Hormigaunts scenario, wouldn't you be able to wall yourself into a corner zulu style? I 'm just trying to understand how you wouldn't use someone with that many models own army against itself. Only give him a narrow front with sacrificial units, take flamers and blast weapons. Sure you might sacrifice a unit or two a turn to keep your line up but after a few turns wouldn't the gaunts be dead or nearly dead? What army are you playing that you wouldn't be able to deal with such a tactic?

Well, it was allways like that and will allways be that large hordes of units make you win the game.
If you manage to buy and paint 200 models, there you go, the victory is yours.

However it got a little bit more balanced with the blast weapons beeing more accurate and template weapons having range.
And especially for Tau with the new rail weapons,
even though they are mainly a weapon vs marine spams.
Also, be mobile. Use the new rapid fire to your benefit.